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Who will succeed Johnny Sexton

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    #122
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,194 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    It's like props who can't pass. We kind of expect forwards not to be good at it but it's inexcusable for a pro player not to have at least decent passing skills. They practice from the time they're in nappies.


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    #123
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »
    And even if guys are practicing in training you can't recreate a match situation in training and they may never get to kick in a match so it's almost impossible.

    Just at the moment, when it comes to Ireland, you're looking at one player having to kick whether they're having a good day or not. When Sexton came back to Leinster first after the WC he took the very first kick, in front of the posts, then didn't take any more kicks for maybe two more matches. Which was fine at Leinster, they had options, if that was the 6 Nations we'd be in trouble.

    Maybe that's why McFadden got called up.... :pac:


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    #124
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,381 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Wasn't Jackson second only to Carter in kicking accuracy in this year's European comp?


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    #125
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,929 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    Paul Smeenus wrote: »
    Wasn't Jackson second only to Carter in kicking accuracy in this year's European comp?

    Not sure but those accuracy things are questionable. Madigan, although undoubtedly a great kicker, is top of the Pro 12 with 100% but he's only had 10 kicks. Players behind him have been kicking 27/30 and the likes but are technically "less accurate".

    Jackson nailed a few long range pressure kicks this season though.


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    #126
    techdiver
    Registered Users Posts: 3,081 ✭✭✭techdiver


    pickarooney wrote: »
    It's like props who can't pass. We kind of expect forwards not to be good at it but it's inexcusable for a pro player not to have at least decent passing skills. They practice from the time they're in nappies.

    This is a particular bugbear of mine.

    The accepted wisdom of thinking it is acceptable for certain players to lack basic skills.

    I had a good laugh at people complaining about Parisse taking the drop goal attempt, saying it should have been left to "a back, or a 10" to take it. The fact that he missed it was put down to him being a forward. What excuses are used when an out half misses a drop goal by a mile. (Which as many of them do as don't). He was absolutely correct to take it on. He is an excellent footballer, as well as a pack member. He was probably as likely to get the drop goal as any of his backs.

    I used to hear the same crap when I was paying. Shouts that forwards shouldn't kick, when none of our backs could kick a ball 2 feet in any direction.


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    #127
    NiallBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    Paul Smeenus wrote: »
    Wasn't Jackson second only to Carter in kicking accuracy in this year's European comp?

    The guy has quietly become a much better place-kicker over the last year.

    I think he realised it was the biggest thing holding him back, other than his baby-face.


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    #128
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,929 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    techdiver wrote: »
    This is a particular bugbear of mine.

    The accepted wisdom of thinking it is acceptable for certain players to lack basic skills.

    I had a good laugh at people complaining about Parisse taking the drop goal attempt, saying it should have been left to "a back, or a 10" to take it. The fact that he missed it was put down to him being a forward. What excuses are used when an out half misses a drop goal by a mile. (Which as many of them do as don't). He was absolutely correct to take it on. He is an excellent footballer, as well as a pack member. He was probably as likely to get the drop goal as any of his backs.

    There were 6 attempts at drop goals over the weekend. 5 of which were from backs, probably 10's. I think only 1 went over?


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    #129
    techdiver
    Registered Users Posts: 3,081 ✭✭✭techdiver


    TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »
    There were 6 attempts at drop goals over the weekend. 5 of which were from backs, probably 10's. I think only 1 went over?

    Exactly my point.


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    #130
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    techdiver wrote: »

    I used to hear the same crap when I was paying. Shouts that forwards shouldn't kick,



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    #131
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,381 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »
    Not sure but those accuracy things are questionable. Madigan, although undoubtedly a great kicker, is top of the Pro 12 with 100% but he's only had 10 kicks. Players behind him have been kicking 27/30 and the likes but are technically "less accurate".

    Jackson nailed a few long range pressure kicks this season though.

    Yeah, at least two highly-pressured last-minute kicks to win games.

    15 conversions, 7 penalties, 1 drop goal in Europe. Can't find %s. though.


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    #132
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    techdiver wrote: »
    I had a good laugh at people complaining about Parisse taking the drop goal attempt, saying it should have been left to "a back, or a 10" to take it. The fact that he missed it was put down to him being a forward. What excuses are used when an out half misses a drop goal by a mile. (Which as many of them do as don't). He was absolutely correct to take it on. He is an excellent footballer, as well as a pack member. He was probably as likely to get the drop goal as any of his backs.

    I still think had Tommy O'Donnell been playing at 7 for Italy Parisse would have gotten that drop goal.


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    #133
    Adventagious
    Registered Users Posts: 570 ✭✭✭Adventagious


    God i really enjoyed Adam Jones' drop goal attempt, made me smile.


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    #134
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,189 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    techdiver wrote: »
    He is an excellent footballer, as well as a pack member. He was probably as likely to get the drop goal as any of his backs.

    I used to hear the same crap when I was paying. Shouts that forwards shouldn't kick, when none of our backs could kick a ball 2 feet in any direction.

    This is test level rugby. He was completely incorrect to take on the kick. It was an awful decision and a horrible effort which was far worse than an attempt you'd expect from any test outhalf. If he was as likely to slot that kick, he would have been the one back in the pocket earlier in the game when his starting outhalf slotted one.

    Parisse was gassed and had no business even standing where he was when the rest of his pack were busting their balls to eke out a few extra yards and positioning themselves to hinder the French chase.

    The fact that he missed it wasn't down to him being a forward. It was down to the fact that, because he's a forward, he is never in that situation, does not practice those situations and will never be asked to be in that situation.


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    #135
    techdiver
    Registered Users Posts: 3,081 ✭✭✭techdiver


    Buer wrote: »
    This is test level rugby. He was completely incorrect to take on the kick. It was an awful decision and a horrible effort which was far worse than an attempt you'd expect from any test outhalf. If he was as likely to slot that kick, he would have been the one back in the pocket earlier in the game when his starting outhalf slotted one.

    Really? I have seen some howlers from outhalves over the years.

    Also, Italy don't have a "test outhalf" as you put it. He had flaky at best backs behind him who had no interest in setting up for the attempt.


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    #136
    rsh118
    Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭rsh118


    NiallBoo wrote: »
    The guy has quietly become a much better place-kicker over the last year.

    I think he realised it was the biggest thing holding him back, other than his baby-face.

    Rumours of a 'guru' being involved have abounded. Good on him, to be a top flight international player you need to be discussing on your weakness areas and grinding them into the dirt. Unless your name is Ronan and tackling isn't your thing.

    Actually on the tackling thing, good to see Sexton's lane being flooded with forwards to stop him trying to make tackles by use of the head alone!


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    #137
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,189 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    techdiver wrote: »
    Really? I have seen some howlers from outhalves over the years.

    Also, Italy don't have a "test outhalf" as you put it. He had flaky at best backs behind him who had no interest in setting up for the attempt.

    We've all seen howlers from outhalves. It happens. But you'd be confident that there's a much better chance they'll at least get the ball up into the air to threaten the posts.

    Whilst Parisse's effort was one of several missed drop goals over the weekend, I don't recall any of the others just about reaching the height of the crossbar before dying away and being hooked well wide.

    The galling part is that, as their captain and best carrier, he was hanging out back there whilst his team mates were battering into the defensive line to try and set it up. He was one guy who could have made a difference up front in getting them closer.

    Whilst the Italian backs might not be worth much, at least one or two of them are used to actually kicking at goal and putting their foot through a ball.


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    #138
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,248 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Parisse has scored drop goals before. If he had scored this one it would have gone down in history as one of the greatest moments in international rugby and definitely the greatest moment in Italian rugby history.

    In the end, it wasn't to be but they went down fighting and I can see Italy giving England a really tough game in Rome this weekend.


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    #139
    techdiver
    Registered Users Posts: 3,081 ✭✭✭techdiver


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Parisse has scored drop goals before. If he had scored this one it would have gone down in history as one of the greatest moments in international rugby and definitely the greatest moment in Italian rugby history.

    In the end, it wasn't to be but they went down fighting and I can see Italy giving England a really tough game in Rome this weekend.

    Indeed he has.



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    #140
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,629 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Akrasia wrote: »
    If he had scored this one it would have gone down in history as one of the greatest moments in international rugby and definitely the greatest moment in Italian rugby history..

    That's a pretty stupid reason for a number 8 to go for a drop goal.

    Edit: Wait a second. How on earth did we get into this? Anyway, I've thought Jackson is easily the second best outhalf in Ireland for the last while to be honest. Schmidt doesn't seem to agree though.


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    #141
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,189 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Parisse has scored drop goals before. If he had scored this one it would have gone down in history as one of the greatest moments in international rugby and definitely the greatest moment in Italian rugby history.

    Yup. Has scored one for Italy as well as for Stade. I think your second sentence explains more about his thought process in the moment rather than being pragmatic and sensible.

    Can you imagine if Zinzan Brooke took a drop goal to win in a big NZ game when the clock was red ahead of his outhalf? There'd be murder.


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    #142
    English Lurker
    Registered Users Posts: 609 ✭✭✭English Lurker


    Paul Smeenus wrote: »
    Yeah, at least two highly-pressured last-minute kicks to win games.

    15 conversions, 7 penalties, 1 drop goal in Europe. Can't find %s. though.

    http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/KickingStrikeRate?comp_id=500

    Best place I know of. Out of those taking 10 or more kicks at goal, 4th behind Carter, Tommy Bell and Gopperth. 88pc. Drop goals not included.

    Pro 12 record not quite as good mind...


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    #143
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,194 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Apart from John Eales, has a forward ever been a regular place kicker?
    Maybe Henderson has a hidden talent?


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    #144
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,381 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    English Lurker wrote: »
    http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/KickingStrikeRate?comp_id=500

    Best place I know of. Out of those taking 10 or more kicks at goal, 4th behind Carter, Tommy Bell and Gopperth. 88pc. Drop goals not included.

    Pro 12 record not quite as good mind...

    Ahead of Sexton (76.47%) and Madigan (87.5%). Interesting.

    And Owen Farrell. And Dan Biggar. And George Ford.

    Could the 24 year old, trusted to be first-choice kicker this season ahead of Pienaar for the first time... be... improving?


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    #145
    Sinbad_NI
    Registered Users Posts: 1,059 ✭✭✭Sinbad_NI


    He was first choice for most of last year as well.

    He's playing superb this season. Really getting the Ulster backs going.

    Haven't seen much of Madigan this year to really comment but he must be doing good stuff to keep PJ out of the 23.


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    #146
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,248 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Jackson imo the future replacement for Sexton in the green shirt, he has played some excellent rugby this year and if Sexton is injured, I hope Schmidt will pick him for number 10

    Madigan's utility status is helping him earn caps at the moment, he's able to cover more positions than Jackson so he earns a place on the bench, but as a starting 10, I'd much prefer Jackson over Madigan


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    #147
    mogwai81
    Registered Users Posts: 527 ✭✭✭mogwai81


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Jackson imo the future replacement for Sexton in the green shirt, he has played some excellent rugby this year and if Sexton is injured, I hope Schmidt will pick him for number 10

    Madigan's utility status is helping him earn caps at the moment, he's able to cover more positions than Jackson so he earns a place on the bench, but as a starting 10, I'd much prefer Jackson over Madigan
    Jackson has also made some hugely impressive kicks this season and his consistency has greatly improved. I would love to know who was his kicked coach back when he seemed to successfully kick from everywhere during the first game in the Aviva.
    I really hope himself and McCloskey get decent game time against Scotland and Italy as it seems unlikely they will be used against France this weekend.


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    #148
    mogwai81
    Registered Users Posts: 527 ✭✭✭mogwai81


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Jackson imo the future replacement for Sexton in the green shirt, he has played some excellent rugby this year and if Sexton is injured, I hope Schmidt will pick him for number 10

    Madigan's utility status is helping him earn caps at the moment, he's able to cover more positions than Jackson so he earns a place on the bench, but as a starting 10, I'd much prefer Jackson over Madigan
    Jackson has also made some hugely impressive kicks this season and his consistency has greatly improved. I would love to know who was his kicked coach back when he seemed to successfully kick from everywhere during the first game in the Aviva.
    I really hope himself and McCloskey get decent game time against Scotland and Italy as it seems unlikely they will be used against France this weekend.


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    #149
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,758 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    mogwai81 wrote: »
    Jackson has also made some hugely impressive kicks this season and his consistency has greatly improved. I would love to know who was his kicked coach back when he seemed to successfully kick from everywhere during the first game in the Aviva.
    I really hope himself and McCloskey get decent game time against Scotland and Italy as it seems unlikely they will be used against France this weekend.

    If Ireland are still in contention there is not a chance that either Jackson or McCloskey will see game time in this Six Nations unless there are injuries.

    In hindsight having watched Roberts last week not starting McCloskey was the right call, however having watched the passive nature of the French defence last week I'd love to see him running into the yards of space that the French defence gives you. I think they'd struggle to handle him.


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    #150
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,929 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    bilston wrote: »
    If Ireland are still in contention there is not a chance that either Jackson or McCloskey will see game time in this Six Nations unless there are injuries.

    In hindsight having watched Roberts last week not starting McCloskey was the right call, however having watched the passive nature of the French defence last week I'd love to see him running into the yards of space that the French defence gives you. I think they'd struggle to handle him.

    Agreed. Unless we're completely out of contention the match day 23 will be pretty much the same throughout the tournament, injuries aside.


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    #151
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users Posts: 7,415 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    bilston wrote: »
    If Ireland are still in contention there is not a chance that either Jackson or McCloskey will see game time in this Six Nations unless there are injuries.

    In hindsight having watched Roberts last week not starting McCloskey was the right call, however having watched the passive nature of the French defence last week I'd love to see him running into the yards of space that the French defence gives you. I think they'd struggle to handle him.
    Except the French have been working on their defense this week, so we can't be sure what we'll see from them in that regard.


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