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Who will succeed Johnny Sexton

13

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭Billysays no


    Kim kardashian? There is a sexy element to rugby that Jonny is not supplying.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    ^Ulster must have had an incredible Academy side for a few years.

    Great back line. Pack, aside from Henderson, was poor. Ulster A and academy sides are quite weak generally due to the lack of forward production.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Buer wrote: »
    Great back line. Pack, aside from Henderson, was poor. Ulster A and academy sides are quite weak generally due to the lack of forward production.

    I mentioned earlier in the thread that Stephen Lecky in that side should have gone on to bigger things, I don't know what happened, maybe he had no interest or he got injured, or he decided to concentrate on something else but he seemed as good a prospect as Henderson at the time.

    The other thing is that Les Kiss seems prepared to give the young forwards a go, we've seen McCall (who I think could play for Ireland), and O'Connor come in and become first choice players and on Saturday Lorcan Dow made his debut and did very well, so in the space of less than 4 months Kiss seems to have uncovered three new forwards for us. It makes you wonder who else is out there.

    Back to the thread subject and I've heard good things about Johnny McPhillips in the Ulster Academy, he is in the Irish U20s squad this year so we'll see if he starts for them and how he goes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭Billysays no


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    Just looked up how old Paddy Jackson is and he's only just gone 24!

    JJ will be 24 in the Summer
    Madigan will be 27 in March
    Marsh has also just gone 24
    Carty will be 24 in August
    Keatley will be 29 in April

    You forget how young PJ really is!

    And the guy left out?
    Craig Ronaldson, kicking stats at the top end of the pro12, physically better built and more imposing than any of the players listed, defensively proven as far above the listed names. In other words a dead cert. So off with ye lads and discuss the might have beens


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    And the guy left out? Craig Ronaldson, kicking stats at the top end of the pro12, physically better built and more imposing than any of the players listed, defensively proven as far above the listed names. In other words a dead cert. So off with ye lads and discuss the might have beens

    This is the same guy who plays 12 to accommodate Jack Carty, right? Or I'd there another Craig Ronaldson who actually is all the things you listed?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭Billysays no


    Buer wrote: »
    This is the same guy who plays 12 to accommodate Jack Carty, right? Or I'd there another Craig Ronaldson who actually is all the things you listed?
    tiz just an accommodation. allows all the other lads to make a right ass of it (and boy are they doing that) before he takes his rightful position


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭Pink Fairy


    Isnt Jack Carty out for months now after rupturing his spleen?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭aimee1


    tiz just an accommodation. allows all the other lads to make a right ass of it (and boy are they doing that) before he takes his rightful position

    Connachts ian madigan so, getting shunted around the backline


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭RobbieRuns


    I wish he was Ian Madigan.........


  • Administrators Posts: 54,256 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Ronaldson has as much chance of playing for Ireland as I do.


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  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,937 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    Just noticed when watching the Leinster School's Cup match yesterday between Clongowes and Monkstown neither team had their 10 kicking for them. Clongowes #12 took theirs and Monkstown's Jack Grealish looking 9 was taking theirs. Terenure also had their 9 kicking for them the other day.

    Obviously I'm not saying any of these guys are going to make it at Provincial level, never mind international level, but it would be no bad thing to have a choice of kicker on the pitch at any one time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭rsh118


    All the Js; JJ or Jackson, both of whom can get a back line shifting. I definitely think Munster went for the safe option in Keatley, and should have put the house on JJ.

    Jackson I'd say is most likely in the long term. Looks a hard worker and barring a few Instagram brain farts seems to have a sensible head on his shoulders. Everything he can learn from Sexton will be valuable.

    I see real similarities between Johnny and Paddy in terms of two players who have always been able to get a back line moving dynamically, whilst being real confidence kickers (Johnny more so when he was younger).

    The future's bright, lads.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,571 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Obviously I'm not saying any of these guys are going to make it at Provincial level, never mind international level, but it would be no bad thing to have a choice of kicker on the pitch at any one time.

    Plenty of current internationals were goal kickers in days past. The problem is they completely stop doing it when they reach provincial level.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Just noticed when watching the Leinster School's Cup match yesterday between Clongowes and Monkstown neither team had their 10 kicking for them. Clongowes #12 took theirs and Monkstown's Jack Grealish looking 9 was taking theirs. Terenure also had their 9 kicking for them the other day.

    Obviously I'm not saying any of these guys are going to make it at Provincial level, never mind international level, but it would be no bad thing to have a choice of kicker on the pitch at any one time.
    There is a huge number of age grade sides who don't have their 10 place kicking for them. But as Podge says when they go up the grades they stop as others take over the obligations.
    Cant remember but was it woodward when coach of England/lions who always had at least 2/3 options to kick at goal on pitch as much as possible?


  • Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭rsh118


    There is a huge number of age grade sides who don't have their 10 place kicking for them. But as Podge says when they go up the grades they stop as others take over the obligations.
    Cant remember but was it woodward when coach of England/lions who always had at least 2/3 options to kick at goal on pitch as much as possible?

    It sucks too because we know it's a cultural thing. So many things are set in stone in rugby due to tradition etc, it's been refreshing to see how tactics and positional play have begun to be mixed up and roles blurred lately.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Just noticed when watching the Leinster School's Cup match yesterday between Clongowes and Monkstown neither team had their 10 kicking for them. Clongowes #12 took theirs and Monkstown's Jack Grealish looking 9 was taking theirs. Terenure also had their 9 kicking for them the other day.

    Obviously I'm not saying any of these guys are going to make it at Provincial level, never mind international level, but it would be no bad thing to have a choice of kicker on the pitch at any one time.

    It's extremely common at underage level for another position to be taking the kicks at goal. It's quite often simply a case that the best back on the team is the best goal kicker.

    Ringrose and Luke McGrath were both exceptional goal kickers at underage level. McGrath nailed a kick for Ireland to win the U18 European title from around halfway, I recall and Ringrose's SCT stats were obscenely good.

    Unfortunately, as soon as they play a higher level, the outhalf starts taking the kicks and it all falls by the wayside. Irish rugby is littered with guys who were very good goal kickers once upon a time.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Buer wrote: »
    It's extremely common at underage level for another position to be taking the kicks at goal. It's quite often simply a case that the best back on the team is the best goal kicker.

    Ringrose and Luke McGrath were both exceptional goal kickers at underage level. McGrath nailed a kick for Ireland to win the U18 European title from around halfway, I recall and Ringrose's SCT stats were obscenely good.

    Unfortunately, as soon as they play a higher level, the outhalf starts taking the kicks and it all falls by the wayside. Irish rugby is littered with guys who were very good goal kickers once upon a time.

    Ireland could start a backline full of goalkickers that wouldn't be too shabby. Murray, Kearneys, Sexton, McFadden, McCloskey. Luke Marshall as well maybe? Not certain on him.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,937 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    Interesting.

    I suppose you're always going to defer to the best kicker and if he's your 10 he's your 10 but surely it makes sense to keep other talented kickers kicking as much as the 10 after training etc. where possible.

    Ireland in particular seem to have this problem with 10's kicking and then when you want a replacement 10 to come along his kicking is almost more important than his ability to play the position.


  • Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭rsh118


    Interesting.

    I suppose you're always going to defer to the best kicker and if he's your 10 he's your 10 but surely it makes sense to keep other talented kickers kicking as much as the 10 after training etc. where possible.

    Ireland in particular seem to have this problem with 10's kicking and then when you want a replacement 10 to come along his kicking is almost more important than his ability to play the position.

    This is so true. I always think back to PJs debut against Scotland where the way we moved had me as excited as I'd ever been in green.

    Then the kicking doubts came in. It is definitely hard to develop a plethora of kickers with 4 pro teams at your disposal. I suppose we can continue to dream...


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  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,937 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    rsh118 wrote: »
    This is so true. I always think back to PJs debut against Scotland where the way we moved had me as excited as I'd ever been in green.

    Then the kicking doubts came in. It is definitely hard to develop a plethora of kickers with 4 pro teams at your disposal. I suppose we can continue to dream...

    And even if guys are practicing in training you can't recreate a match situation in training and they may never get to kick in a match so it's almost impossible.

    Just at the moment, when it comes to Ireland, you're looking at one player having to kick whether they're having a good day or not. When Sexton came back to Leinster first after the WC he took the very first kick, in front of the posts, then didn't take any more kicks for maybe two more matches. Which was fine at Leinster, they had options, if that was the 6 Nations we'd be in trouble.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,576 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    It's like props who can't pass. We kind of expect forwards not to be good at it but it's inexcusable for a pro player not to have at least decent passing skills. They practice from the time they're in nappies.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    And even if guys are practicing in training you can't recreate a match situation in training and they may never get to kick in a match so it's almost impossible.

    Just at the moment, when it comes to Ireland, you're looking at one player having to kick whether they're having a good day or not. When Sexton came back to Leinster first after the WC he took the very first kick, in front of the posts, then didn't take any more kicks for maybe two more matches. Which was fine at Leinster, they had options, if that was the 6 Nations we'd be in trouble.

    Maybe that's why McFadden got called up.... :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,543 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Wasn't Jackson second only to Carter in kicking accuracy in this year's European comp?


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,937 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    Wasn't Jackson second only to Carter in kicking accuracy in this year's European comp?

    Not sure but those accuracy things are questionable. Madigan, although undoubtedly a great kicker, is top of the Pro 12 with 100% but he's only had 10 kicks. Players behind him have been kicking 27/30 and the likes but are technically "less accurate".

    Jackson nailed a few long range pressure kicks this season though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,282 ✭✭✭techdiver


    It's like props who can't pass. We kind of expect forwards not to be good at it but it's inexcusable for a pro player not to have at least decent passing skills. They practice from the time they're in nappies.

    This is a particular bugbear of mine.

    The accepted wisdom of thinking it is acceptable for certain players to lack basic skills.

    I had a good laugh at people complaining about Parisse taking the drop goal attempt, saying it should have been left to "a back, or a 10" to take it. The fact that he missed it was put down to him being a forward. What excuses are used when an out half misses a drop goal by a mile. (Which as many of them do as don't). He was absolutely correct to take it on. He is an excellent footballer, as well as a pack member. He was probably as likely to get the drop goal as any of his backs.

    I used to hear the same crap when I was paying. Shouts that forwards shouldn't kick, when none of our backs could kick a ball 2 feet in any direction.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    Wasn't Jackson second only to Carter in kicking accuracy in this year's European comp?

    The guy has quietly become a much better place-kicker over the last year.

    I think he realised it was the biggest thing holding him back, other than his baby-face.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,937 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    techdiver wrote: »
    This is a particular bugbear of mine.

    The accepted wisdom of thinking it is acceptable for certain players to lack basic skills.

    I had a good laugh at people complaining about Parisse taking the drop goal attempt, saying it should have been left to "a back, or a 10" to take it. The fact that he missed it was put down to him being a forward. What excuses are used when an out half misses a drop goal by a mile. (Which as many of them do as don't). He was absolutely correct to take it on. He is an excellent footballer, as well as a pack member. He was probably as likely to get the drop goal as any of his backs.

    There were 6 attempts at drop goals over the weekend. 5 of which were from backs, probably 10's. I think only 1 went over?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,282 ✭✭✭techdiver


    There were 6 attempts at drop goals over the weekend. 5 of which were from backs, probably 10's. I think only 1 went over?

    Exactly my point.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    techdiver wrote: »

    I used to hear the same crap when I was paying. Shouts that forwards shouldn't kick,



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,543 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Not sure but those accuracy things are questionable. Madigan, although undoubtedly a great kicker, is top of the Pro 12 with 100% but he's only had 10 kicks. Players behind him have been kicking 27/30 and the likes but are technically "less accurate".

    Jackson nailed a few long range pressure kicks this season though.

    Yeah, at least two highly-pressured last-minute kicks to win games.

    15 conversions, 7 penalties, 1 drop goal in Europe. Can't find %s. though.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    techdiver wrote: »
    I had a good laugh at people complaining about Parisse taking the drop goal attempt, saying it should have been left to "a back, or a 10" to take it. The fact that he missed it was put down to him being a forward. What excuses are used when an out half misses a drop goal by a mile. (Which as many of them do as don't). He was absolutely correct to take it on. He is an excellent footballer, as well as a pack member. He was probably as likely to get the drop goal as any of his backs.

    I still think had Tommy O'Donnell been playing at 7 for Italy Parisse would have gotten that drop goal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 570 ✭✭✭Adventagious


    God i really enjoyed Adam Jones' drop goal attempt, made me smile.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    techdiver wrote: »
    He is an excellent footballer, as well as a pack member. He was probably as likely to get the drop goal as any of his backs.

    I used to hear the same crap when I was paying. Shouts that forwards shouldn't kick, when none of our backs could kick a ball 2 feet in any direction.

    This is test level rugby. He was completely incorrect to take on the kick. It was an awful decision and a horrible effort which was far worse than an attempt you'd expect from any test outhalf. If he was as likely to slot that kick, he would have been the one back in the pocket earlier in the game when his starting outhalf slotted one.

    Parisse was gassed and had no business even standing where he was when the rest of his pack were busting their balls to eke out a few extra yards and positioning themselves to hinder the French chase.

    The fact that he missed it wasn't down to him being a forward. It was down to the fact that, because he's a forward, he is never in that situation, does not practice those situations and will never be asked to be in that situation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,282 ✭✭✭techdiver


    Buer wrote: »
    This is test level rugby. He was completely incorrect to take on the kick. It was an awful decision and a horrible effort which was far worse than an attempt you'd expect from any test outhalf. If he was as likely to slot that kick, he would have been the one back in the pocket earlier in the game when his starting outhalf slotted one.

    Really? I have seen some howlers from outhalves over the years.

    Also, Italy don't have a "test outhalf" as you put it. He had flaky at best backs behind him who had no interest in setting up for the attempt.


  • Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭rsh118


    NiallBoo wrote: »
    The guy has quietly become a much better place-kicker over the last year.

    I think he realised it was the biggest thing holding him back, other than his baby-face.

    Rumours of a 'guru' being involved have abounded. Good on him, to be a top flight international player you need to be discussing on your weakness areas and grinding them into the dirt. Unless your name is Ronan and tackling isn't your thing.

    Actually on the tackling thing, good to see Sexton's lane being flooded with forwards to stop him trying to make tackles by use of the head alone!


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    techdiver wrote: »
    Really? I have seen some howlers from outhalves over the years.

    Also, Italy don't have a "test outhalf" as you put it. He had flaky at best backs behind him who had no interest in setting up for the attempt.

    We've all seen howlers from outhalves. It happens. But you'd be confident that there's a much better chance they'll at least get the ball up into the air to threaten the posts.

    Whilst Parisse's effort was one of several missed drop goals over the weekend, I don't recall any of the others just about reaching the height of the crossbar before dying away and being hooked well wide.

    The galling part is that, as their captain and best carrier, he was hanging out back there whilst his team mates were battering into the defensive line to try and set it up. He was one guy who could have made a difference up front in getting them closer.

    Whilst the Italian backs might not be worth much, at least one or two of them are used to actually kicking at goal and putting their foot through a ball.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,676 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Parisse has scored drop goals before. If he had scored this one it would have gone down in history as one of the greatest moments in international rugby and definitely the greatest moment in Italian rugby history.

    In the end, it wasn't to be but they went down fighting and I can see Italy giving England a really tough game in Rome this weekend.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,282 ✭✭✭techdiver


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Parisse has scored drop goals before. If he had scored this one it would have gone down in history as one of the greatest moments in international rugby and definitely the greatest moment in Italian rugby history.

    In the end, it wasn't to be but they went down fighting and I can see Italy giving England a really tough game in Rome this weekend.

    Indeed he has.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,571 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Akrasia wrote: »
    If he had scored this one it would have gone down in history as one of the greatest moments in international rugby and definitely the greatest moment in Italian rugby history..

    That's a pretty stupid reason for a number 8 to go for a drop goal.

    Edit: Wait a second. How on earth did we get into this? Anyway, I've thought Jackson is easily the second best outhalf in Ireland for the last while to be honest. Schmidt doesn't seem to agree though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Parisse has scored drop goals before. If he had scored this one it would have gone down in history as one of the greatest moments in international rugby and definitely the greatest moment in Italian rugby history.

    Yup. Has scored one for Italy as well as for Stade. I think your second sentence explains more about his thought process in the moment rather than being pragmatic and sensible.

    Can you imagine if Zinzan Brooke took a drop goal to win in a big NZ game when the clock was red ahead of his outhalf? There'd be murder.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 609 ✭✭✭English Lurker


    Yeah, at least two highly-pressured last-minute kicks to win games.

    15 conversions, 7 penalties, 1 drop goal in Europe. Can't find %s. though.

    http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/KickingStrikeRate?comp_id=500

    Best place I know of. Out of those taking 10 or more kicks at goal, 4th behind Carter, Tommy Bell and Gopperth. 88pc. Drop goals not included.

    Pro 12 record not quite as good mind...


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,576 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Apart from John Eales, has a forward ever been a regular place kicker?
    Maybe Henderson has a hidden talent?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,543 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/KickingStrikeRate?comp_id=500

    Best place I know of. Out of those taking 10 or more kicks at goal, 4th behind Carter, Tommy Bell and Gopperth. 88pc. Drop goals not included.

    Pro 12 record not quite as good mind...

    Ahead of Sexton (76.47%) and Madigan (87.5%). Interesting.

    And Owen Farrell. And Dan Biggar. And George Ford.

    Could the 24 year old, trusted to be first-choice kicker this season ahead of Pienaar for the first time... be... improving?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,059 ✭✭✭Sinbad_NI


    He was first choice for most of last year as well.

    He's playing superb this season. Really getting the Ulster backs going.

    Haven't seen much of Madigan this year to really comment but he must be doing good stuff to keep PJ out of the 23.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,676 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Jackson imo the future replacement for Sexton in the green shirt, he has played some excellent rugby this year and if Sexton is injured, I hope Schmidt will pick him for number 10

    Madigan's utility status is helping him earn caps at the moment, he's able to cover more positions than Jackson so he earns a place on the bench, but as a starting 10, I'd much prefer Jackson over Madigan


  • Registered Users Posts: 527 ✭✭✭mogwai81


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Jackson imo the future replacement for Sexton in the green shirt, he has played some excellent rugby this year and if Sexton is injured, I hope Schmidt will pick him for number 10

    Madigan's utility status is helping him earn caps at the moment, he's able to cover more positions than Jackson so he earns a place on the bench, but as a starting 10, I'd much prefer Jackson over Madigan
    Jackson has also made some hugely impressive kicks this season and his consistency has greatly improved. I would love to know who was his kicked coach back when he seemed to successfully kick from everywhere during the first game in the Aviva.
    I really hope himself and McCloskey get decent game time against Scotland and Italy as it seems unlikely they will be used against France this weekend.


  • Registered Users Posts: 527 ✭✭✭mogwai81


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Jackson imo the future replacement for Sexton in the green shirt, he has played some excellent rugby this year and if Sexton is injured, I hope Schmidt will pick him for number 10

    Madigan's utility status is helping him earn caps at the moment, he's able to cover more positions than Jackson so he earns a place on the bench, but as a starting 10, I'd much prefer Jackson over Madigan
    Jackson has also made some hugely impressive kicks this season and his consistency has greatly improved. I would love to know who was his kicked coach back when he seemed to successfully kick from everywhere during the first game in the Aviva.
    I really hope himself and McCloskey get decent game time against Scotland and Italy as it seems unlikely they will be used against France this weekend.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    mogwai81 wrote: »
    Jackson has also made some hugely impressive kicks this season and his consistency has greatly improved. I would love to know who was his kicked coach back when he seemed to successfully kick from everywhere during the first game in the Aviva.
    I really hope himself and McCloskey get decent game time against Scotland and Italy as it seems unlikely they will be used against France this weekend.

    If Ireland are still in contention there is not a chance that either Jackson or McCloskey will see game time in this Six Nations unless there are injuries.

    In hindsight having watched Roberts last week not starting McCloskey was the right call, however having watched the passive nature of the French defence last week I'd love to see him running into the yards of space that the French defence gives you. I think they'd struggle to handle him.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,937 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    bilston wrote: »
    If Ireland are still in contention there is not a chance that either Jackson or McCloskey will see game time in this Six Nations unless there are injuries.

    In hindsight having watched Roberts last week not starting McCloskey was the right call, however having watched the passive nature of the French defence last week I'd love to see him running into the yards of space that the French defence gives you. I think they'd struggle to handle him.

    Agreed. Unless we're completely out of contention the match day 23 will be pretty much the same throughout the tournament, injuries aside.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,813 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    bilston wrote: »
    If Ireland are still in contention there is not a chance that either Jackson or McCloskey will see game time in this Six Nations unless there are injuries.

    In hindsight having watched Roberts last week not starting McCloskey was the right call, however having watched the passive nature of the French defence last week I'd love to see him running into the yards of space that the French defence gives you. I think they'd struggle to handle him.
    Except the French have been working on their defense this week, so we can't be sure what we'll see from them in that regard.


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