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Second coming of the Pope to coincide with General Election issue of 8th amendment?

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12467…18

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    #92
    martinjudge73
    Registered Users Posts: 126 ✭✭martinjudge73


    eviltwin wrote: »
    It's not covered. I don't know the legality of it all but I'd imagine it's something to do with the point at which life begins being at implantation. But you said conception so that would cover ivf. Where is the outrage?

    We are discussing the 8th Amendment. If it was put infront of me to change/remove. I would vote no. I am not going to start waging some moral catholic war on IVF/MAP... I'm talking about going to a doctor to end your childs life. Is that right, I say no.

    I'm not going to fight some catholic argument. But I'm also not going to say that killing a child is right. Either we respect a human life or we don't.. And once we don't where does it stop? We should rally around and support each other.


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    #93
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    martinjudge73 wrote: »
    We are discussing the 8th Amendment. If it was put infront of me to change/remove. I would vote no. I am not going to start waging some moral catholic war on IVF/MAP... I'm talking about going to a doctor to end your childs life. Is that right, I say no.

    I'm not going to fight some catholic argument. But I'm also not going to say that killing a child is right. Either we respect a human life or we don't.. And once we don't where does it stop? We should rally around and support each other.

    What about frozen embryos that are discarded, should that be allowed to happen? What about women go to a doctor or pharmacist and who use the morning after pill which works to prevent implantation? Is that killing a child?


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    #94
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,884 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    I'm still seeing little support for women pregnant as a result of rape, women carrying foetuses that have no chance of survival for more than a couple of excruciatingly painful days or women who risk long-term health problems due to pregnancy.


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    #95
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    I'm still seeing little support for women pregnant as a result of rape, women carrying foetuses that have no chance of survival for more than a couple of excruciatingly painful days or women who risk long-term health problems due to pregnancy.

    Well apparently if we all rally round and support each other all women and girls who are pregnant won't ever want or need abortion.


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    #96
    martinjudge73
    Registered Users Posts: 126 ✭✭martinjudge73


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    I'm still seeing little support for women pregnant as a result of rape, women carrying foetuses that have no chance of survival for more than a couple of excruciatingly painful days or women who risk long-term health problems due to pregnancy.

    On rape. I had a long discussion with my Daughters. Their honest opinion was they would take the morning after pill as they would not know for sure they were actually pregnant. But if they knew they were pregnant they would not kill the child.

    their view was that lots of kids have bastard father.. No matter how bad your father is does not mean you are that person..


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    #97
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    martinjudge73 wrote: »
    On rape. I had a long discussion with my Daughters. Their honest opinion was they would take the morning after pill as they would not know for sure they were actually pregnant. But if they knew they were pregnant they would not kill the child.

    their view was that lots of kids have bastard father.. No matter how bad your father is does not mean you are that person..

    You do know other women feel differently to your daughters. I'm surprised you've no problem with the morning after pill if you believe life begins at conception.


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    #98
    martinjudge73
    Registered Users Posts: 126 ✭✭martinjudge73


    lazygal wrote: »
    You do know other women feel differently to your daughters. I'm surprised you've no problem with the morning after pill if you believe life begins at conception.

    I'm not a women.. So why are you surprised?

    yes other women feel differently. However if and when the ballot presented to me and my family to remove or change the 8th.. we will vote no.


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    #99
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    martinjudge73 wrote: »
    I'm not a women.. So why are you surprised?

    yes other women feel differently. However if and when the ballot presented to me and my family to remove or change the 8th.. we will vote no.

    So how do you think rallying around and supporting each other will stop all pregnant women and girls wanting to access abortion? And why is the morning after pill ok?


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    #100
    martinjudge73
    Registered Users Posts: 126 ✭✭martinjudge73


    lazygal wrote: »
    So how do you think rallying around and supporting each other will stop all pregnant women and girls wanting to access abortion? And why is the morning after pill ok?

    I will be asked to vote. How can you ask me to vote for something that I don't agree with. Voting in favour or removing the right to life of the unborn would mean we would kill children on Irish soil.

    as for the MAD.. My daughters view is that within 24 hrs she would not know for sure if or if not she was pregnant after a rape... so she would take it.

    I'm not saying its ok or not. But we are not asked to vote on it, are we? its already legal.


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    #101
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,946 ✭✭✭Daith


    martinjudge73 wrote: »
    Voting in favour or removing the right to life of the unborn would mean we would kill children on Irish soil.

    as for the MAD.. My daughters view is that within 24 hrs she would not know for sure if or if not she was pregnant after a rape... so she would take it.

    So your daughter may be killing an unborn child with the morning after pill? So if it's okay to have an abortion after 1 day, why not 2 days, a week, eight weeks?


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    #102
    Skrynesaver
    Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭Skrynesaver


    martinjudge73 wrote: »
    However if and when the ballot presented to me and my family to remove or change the 8th.. we will vote no.

    If your daughters and their mother exist their votes may not coincide with the platitudes they spout to daddy. (you do know we allow women vote without male supervision?)

    The fact is that no woman currently capable of childbearing got to vote on this limitation of her rights and the notion that a far right socially conservative party like FG would rush to call a politically divisive amendment poll in advance of going in to an election in which they're dependent on their conservative base coming out in strength is farcical. Politicians do what's in their best interest, followed by the party's best interest and if there's no other option they'll consider what's best for the country.


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    #103
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,476 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    martinjudge73 wrote: »
    as for the MAD.. My daughters view is that within 24 hrs she would not know for sure if or if not she was pregnant after a rape... so she would take it.

    and what if it wasn't effective..after all they are not 100% effective (5% chance it won't work if taken within 24hrs),

    What if she got pregnant from the rape? Would you be ok with her being pregnant from a rape...more importantly would she?

    On a side note, I'm actually curious about this.
    If a women gets pregnant from a rape, what happens if the rapist wants access to their offspring?


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    #104
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    How a baby is conceived shouldn't affect their right to life. You may as well argue IVF babies should have less rights than others.


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    #105
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,476 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    How a baby is conceived shouldn't affect their right to life. You may as well argue IVF babies should have less rights than others.

    You've made an interesting but flawed point, so an embryo is equal to that of a baby?

    Which would you save in a fire....a tray full of 600 embryos or a small 1 month old baby?

    You've suggested an IVF embryo is equal to a baby in life so I'd hope you're saving the 600. If you put the baby before the embryo's then you've put more rights on the baby, something you've just complained about.


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    #106
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,884 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    How a baby is conceived shouldn't affect their right to life. You may as well argue IVF babies should have less rights than others.

    At least IVF involves the mother's consent, unless it's the Republic of Gilead from "A Handmaiden's Tale".


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    #107
    Metroboulot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 75 ✭✭Metroboulot


    When you think about it, basically every other developed democracy has abortion available. Ireland is way out of line with the rest of the free world in effect on this. I can't think of any country where abortion is seen as a form of contraception, in most cases it's a last resort type of a step.

    Also, comparing a child conceived by IVF to a rape victim is frankly a ludicrous and even insulting comparison.

    For some people being pregnant from a rape would possibly be their worst nightmare. It absolutely shouldn't be unavailable in this case. It's complete loss of control of your own reproductive system and then being forced to carry the result of that!? If someone wanted to carry on, fine, but they absolutely should not be forced to. It's beyond inhuman.

    I'm a guy, but I can definitely see how it would feel like something out of Alien - you would be adding vast amounts of trauma to an already awful experience.

    I also know a woman in her 50s who has a serious heart condition who had a condom burst and thought she might be pregnant. She was absolutely freaking out because if she'd carried the baby she'd be at risk of having a heart attack and if she continued her heart meds, the baby would be guaranteed to be damaged.

    We also regularly seem to force women to carry unviable pregnancies to term !?
    Seriously, what kind of sicko would make someone do that just to appease their own dogmatic views?

    I don't think you can have a binary black and white argument about abortion. It's a very grey area that you can't really just rule "yes / no" on.

    Life is far from a perfect thing that follows a normative model. All sorts of things are thrown up along the way.

    I find on this topic Ireland's establishment has managed to abstract itself so far from the messy reality of life that it's a bit scary, to put it mildly.

    Meanwhile, thousands of Irish abortions happen, just in Britain or elsewhere instead and often at unnecessarily late stages and without any kind of follow up care because of Ireland's highly unusual stance on the matter.

    Sometimes you just have to be practical and pragmatic.
    I really do not think that all of our neighbours are some kind of immoral crazy abortionists. They're all normal, ethical, very human rights driven countries with some of the highest living standards in human history.


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    #108
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    Abortion is not a cure for rape. Has anyone actually been forced to carry a rapist's baby? I keep hearing this line trotted out but I don't recall ever hearing of such an instance.


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    #109
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Abortion is not a cure for rape. Has anyone actually been forced to carry a rapist's baby? I keep hearing this line trotted out but I don't recall ever hearing of such an instance.
    What should a pregnant rape victim who wishes not to remain pregnant but is unable to travel abroad for an abortion do?


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    #110
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,476 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Abortion is not a cure for rape. Has anyone actually been forced to carry a rapist's baby? I keep hearing this line trotted out but I don't recall ever hearing of such an instance.

    Welcome to the internet!
    Google is your friend....first link is

    http://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/13/americas/paraguay-young-rape-victim-gives-birth/
    11-year-old rape victim denied abortion gives birth in Paraguay

    11 year old....an 11 year old, forced to give birth to the rapist off spring. Let that sink in for a min....an 11 year old!
    In the mostly Catholic country, 684 girls between the ages of 10 and 14 gave birth last year. Most of the minors had been victims of sexual abuse, according to government figures. A Paraguayan law bans abortions except in cases where the pregnancy endangers the mother's life.

    So yes, it certainly happens and its sickening that any women regardless of their age is put in this situation.

    Its bad enough their bodies have been violated by the actual rape but then they are being forced into a situation where their body continuous to be violated against their will.

    Of course it also happens in Ireland
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/rape-victim-didn-t-have-a-choice-1.1905130


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    #111
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    I agree, it's shocking that an 11 year old was raped. But I don't see how forcing an abortion on her is somehow a better outcome. Why should the baby receive the death sentence for the rapist's crime?


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    #112
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,151 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    martinjudge73 wrote: »
    On rape. I had a long discussion with my Daughters. Their honest opinion was they would take the morning after pill as they would not know for sure they were actually pregnant. But if they knew they were pregnant they would not kill the child.
    i've no reason to doubt their sincerity, but it's a tough claim to make. i suspect a lot of people would not know how they'd react until it happened.


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    #113
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Abortion is not a cure for rape. Has anyone actually been forced to carry a rapist's baby? I keep hearing this line trotted out but I don't recall ever hearing of such an instance.

    No it's not but it may be in the best interests of the victims going forward if that is what they want.


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    #114
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,772 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    I agree, it's shocking that an 11 year old was raped. But I don't see how forcing an abortion on her is somehow a better outcome. Why should the baby receive the death sentence for the rapist's crime?

    What's not shocking is how those who decry the plight of the poor little babies whilst still in the womb don't seem to give two sh*ts about them once they have been born. Forcing an abortion on an 11 year old? :mad:


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    #115
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,476 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    I agree, it's shocking that an 11 year old was raped. But I don't see how forcing an abortion on her is somehow a better outcome. Why should the baby receive the death sentence for the rapist's crime?

    But its not a baby, its a fetus.

    Even Catholic hospitals have been known to argue that a fetus is not equal to a baby - http://edition.cnn.com/2013/01/26/us/colorado-fetus-lawsuit/
    A fetus is not legally a person until it is born, the hospital's lawyers have claimed in its defense.

    You're only solution is to completely ignore the will and bodily integrity of the child who was raped and to put a bunch of cells above her rights, well being and mental health.

    My solution is to simply give that child and her parents a choice, if they believe the best thing to do for her mental health and well being is to have an abortion that they should be able to do this. If they so wish.


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    #116
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    I agree, it's shocking that an 11 year old was raped. But I don't see how forcing an abortion on her is somehow a better outcome. Why should the baby receive the death sentence for the rapist's crime?
    So you agree that sometimes girls and women are forced to bear their rapist's baby. What if the girl or woman wants an abortion and can't travel abroad for an abortion she wishes to have? She can't have one forced on her in Ireland. Do you think abortions are regularly forced on pregnant 11 year olds?


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    #117
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    I agree, it's shocking that an 11 year old was raped. But I don't see how forcing an abortion on her is somehow a better outcome. Why should the baby receive the death sentence for the rapist's crime?

    What's the deal with the use of the word force? The only ones endorsing force are those who believe a rape victim shouldn't be allowed an abortion. Let the victim decide what she wants to do. Taking power away from someone who has already been denied it is just adding to her trauma. It shouldn't be rocket science to know that


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    #118
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,772 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Abortion is not a cure for rape.

    Prostheses aren't cures for amputation, should we ban them too?


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    #119
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,476 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    What's not shocking is how those who decry the plight of the poor little babies whilst still in the womb don't seem to give two sh*ts about them once they have been born. Forcing an abortion on an 11 year old? :mad:

    Once their born they don't give a monkeys about them,

    Its the same reason why you don't see Lolek Ltd spending loads of money lobbying so the monthly child allowance is increased, or improving child care options for familys etc.


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    #120
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,884 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    lazygal wrote: »
    So you agree that sometimes girls and women are forced to bear their rapist's baby. What if the girl or woman wants an abortion and can't travel abroad for an abortion she wishes to have? She can't have one forced on her in Ireland. Do you think abortions are regularly forced on pregnant 11 year olds?

    Careful, you're falling into the feminine trap of using emotion in arguments!


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    #121
    Metroboulot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 75 ✭✭Metroboulot


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    What's not shocking is how those who decry the plight of the poor little babies whilst still in the womb don't seem to give two sh*ts about them once they have been born. Forcing an abortion on an 11 year old? :mad:

    Oh, of course they did have a solution for this:

    A lovely nun simply then locks the 11 year old up and forces her to do laundry without pay (denying her access to education and falsely imprisoning her) maybe for a few months, years or, at her whim, for a few decades. The child is simply sold to the highest bidder in the US and nobody's the wiser, just a few convents are a bit richer.

    Great system!


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