Second coming of the Pope to coincide with General Election issue of 8th amendment?

Shrap

I reckon we'll be seeing the gears grinding on this very soon for sure. Heard somewhere that 2018 is the timeline of his projected visit, some suggesting that it would/could undermine and coincide with any promise of a referendum on the 8th amendment. Am I being a bit "conspiracy theorist" to now be thinking that this projected visit is already putting the cat among the pigeons in the lead up to our GE announcement and the parties taking their positions on this election issue?

That's what I'm seeing here anyway.....

Archbishop Eamon Martin seems "inspired" by pope to take a hard line on families being only for reproduction (although rather fluffs his cue by hitting out at a family inclusiveness poster by the INTO):

Addressing the National Eucharistic Congress in Knock, the Primate of All Ireland called for "a renewed mission to the family in Ireland over the next five years".
This mission, he explained, would implement the recommendations of the forthcoming synod on the family in Rome.
He also pledged to proclaim "courageously to Irish society the Good News about marriage between a man and a woman, always open to life"

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/it-is-not-schools-job-alone-to-teach-sex-education-bishop-31563479.html

Pope, in Manila a few months ago:

“The family is threatened by growing efforts on the part of some to redefine the very institution of marriage, by relativism, by the culture of the ephemeral, by a lack of openness to life”

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/30/pope-francis-meeting-kim-davis-no-surprise?CMP=share_btn_tw

I genuinely think they've (the pope that is) been smart enough to take an early derailing mission on our electoral issues and each and every party knows that #repealthe8th is already dead in the water, or am I just being pessimistic about the power of the Vatican over our State?

Mods - maybe it's not worth a thread - no offence if you move it elsewhere!

Cabaal

They tried to blackmail TD's using belief against them during the last abortion related discussion so I'd put nothing past them

Shrap

Cabaal wrote: »

They tried to blackmail TD's using belief against them during the last abortion related discussion so I'd put nothing past them

And I'd put nothing past the TD's to call this GE in November (each and every significant party having already hurriedly called a "No" or an "Unlikely" on the ref) to get in there before a Papal visit is officially announced.

I think we've been trumped.

Cabaal

Shrap wrote: »

And I'd put nothing past the TD's to call this GE in November (each and every significant party having already hurriedly called a "No" or an "Unlikely" on the ref) to get in there before a Papal visit is officially announced.

I think we've been trumped.

At the end of the day a lot TD's want to keep the mass goers happy, they don't want to upset the Vatican/Pope. FF is particular guilty of this esp during the ref in May in my view.

Shrap

Cabaal wrote: »

At the end of the day a lot TD's want to keep the mass goers happy, they don't want to upset the Vatican/Pope. FF is particular guilty of this esp during the ref in May in my view.

For sure. Not much coincidence that YD were lobbying away in Limerick in the week coming up to Limerick CoCo voting on a motion to call for a referendum on the 8th. All FF gave a flat-out NO. There is unseemly haste on display here, with a GE undoubtedly going to be called for Nov.

Cabaal

Perhaps FF should adopt this as there next election poster

mahoganygas

Two interesting points I took from this.

1) The Pope decided to come Ireland after a majority of Irish people voted in favor of same-sex marriage.

2) On his recent visit to the US the Pope met with Kim Davis (Kentucky County clerk who refused to issue a marriage licence to a gay couple) in secret. He gave her rosaries and told her to "stay strong".

A lot of people rightly point out that this Pope is the most liberal we have seen. I admire how he has turned many church traditions on their head.

But in light of the timing of the visit, and his anti-gay policies I am now opposed to his proposed visit to Ireland.
And I will consider voting for a TD who takes a secular view to gay issues and women's reproductive rights.

Shrap

mahoganygas wrote: »

And I will consider voting for a TD who takes a secular view to gay issues and women's reproductive rights.

Great! But good luck finding one, still less a party with half a chance of actually bringing us a referendum on it!

Shrap

And yes, the timing is everything. The mere threat/promise of his visit is already affecting our affairs of state, to my mind.

Notable last lines of this article: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/parents-to-get-involved-in-religious-education-as-pope-visit-approaches-31566498.html

But Archbishop of Dublin Diarmuid Martin told RTÉ that Pope Francis "has a great liking for Ireland and he has a concern for Ireland".
He added: "I think he just sees this as coming to Ireland but with a good build-up to it rather than just arriving with a few weeks' notice."

I'll be hopping this off every candidate in my area.

Hotblack Desiato

No chance of an election until the spring.

Will be surprised if the pope does visit, hundreds of millions of catholics live in third world countries which have never had a papal visit and would actually be glad to have him. In any case it's a couple of years away at least, might be a new pope by then

Repeal the 8th is NOT dead in the water :mad:

martinjudge73

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

No chance of an election until the spring.

Will be surprised if the pope does visit, hundreds of millions of catholics live in third world countries which have never had a papal visit and would actually be glad to have him. In any case it's a couple of years away at least, might be a new pope by then

Repeal the 8th is NOT dead in the water :mad:

Hmm. The last Pope pretty much visited every country in the world. There is not going to be a referendum on removing the 8th amendment because it would not pass. "The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn.. and equal right to life of the mother".. So how would they present a question that would not remove the rights of the child? It would not fly. We would end up with abortion on demand like britain.. which the majority here don't want.

lazygal

martinjudge73 wrote: »

Hmm. The last Pope pretty much visited every country in the world. There is not going to be a referendum on removing the 8th amendment because it would not pass. "The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn.. and equal right to life of the mother".. So how would they present a question that would not remove the rights of the child? It would not fly. We would end up with abortion on demand like britain.. which the majority here don't want.

Maybe we could have all healthcare on demand. Do you have stats to back up your claims about what the majority of Irish people want?

martinjudge73

lazygal wrote: »

Maybe we could have all healthcare on demand. Do you have stats to back up your claims about what the majority of Irish people want?

Every politician knows that a referendum would fail. How can you say that the unborn does not have the right to life. Its a political nightmare trying to find the wording. At the end of the day Women are not dying because children have a right to life.

There is some support to abortion in the case of rape.. However most people are uncomfortable about abortion on demand. We have one of the highest birthrates in europe.

The reality is we already carry out dozens of abortions a year when a mothers life is at risk. A mother has the right to life.

lazygal

The unborn loses its right to life if a woman's life is at risk or a woman has the means and ability to deny it the right to life elsewhere. Why is the right to life of the unborn subject to such provisions? And which stats indicate that the majority of voters in Ireland wouldn't vote to repeal the eighth amendment?

martinjudge73

lazygal wrote: »

The unborn loses its right to life if a woman's life is at risk or a woman has the means and ability to deny it the right to life elsewhere. Why is the right to life of the unborn subject to such provisions? And which stats indicate that the majority of voters in Ireland wouldn't vote to repeal the eighth amendment?

What do you replace the eight amendment with? If the current clause is not causing the deaths of Mothers or children in the republic then why waste millions on a vote? We already have abortions when a mothers life is at risk.

lazygal

martinjudge73 wrote: »

What do you replace the eight amendment with? If the current clause is not causing the deaths of Mothers or children in the republic then why waste millions on a vote? We already have abortions when a mothers life is at risk.

So once women aren't dying that's the main thing. Regardless of our feelings or health, compulsory gestation needs to remain in place. Any stats on the numbers who wouldn't repeal the amendment? Why is the unborn without a right to life when a woman needs an abortion to save her life? Why is there a clause allowing women to take the unborn elsewhere to kill them after the eighth amendment protecting their right to life?

martinjudge73

lazygal wrote: »

So once women aren't dying that's the main thing. Regardless of our feelings or health, compulsory gestation needs to remain in place. Any stats on the numbers who wouldn't repeal the amendment? Why is the unborn without a right to life when a woman needs an abortion to save her life? Why is there a clause allowing women to take the unborn elsewhere to kill them after the eighth amendment protecting their right to life?

If the pregnancy is not the result of rape then how can it be compulsory? She should use the Pill/condom or morning after pill.

As I said we already have abortion in Ireland to save a mothers life.. So getting rid of the 8th would get us what? What would you replace it with?

Or better still what would you put on the ballot paper? It really is a no brainer to spend millions on this vote now. Maybe in 10 years when things a different.

I am justing be realistic here. The 8th is not killing women and children today.

eviltwin

martinjudge73 wrote: »

What do you replace the eight amendment with? If the current clause is not causing the deaths of Mothers or children in the republic then why waste millions on a vote? We already have abortions when a mothers life is at risk.

So you see allowing women of child bearing age to have a say on an issue that directly affects them as a waste do you?

lazygal

martinjudge73 wrote: »

If the pregnancy is not the result of rape then how can it be compulsory? She should use the Pill/condom or morning after pill.

As I said we already have abortion in Ireland to save a mothers life.. So getting rid of the 8th would get us what? What would you replace it with?

Or better still what would you put on the ballot paper? It really is a no brainer to spend millions on this vote now. Maybe in 10 years when things a different.

I am justing be realistic here. The 8th is not killing women and children today.

So regardless of how a girl or woman feels about being pregnant she must be compelled to remain pregnant. Unless she can travel, that is, or is at risk of dying. What do you think would happen if women weren't allowed to travel to kill the unborn?
I note you've provided no stats on voting outcomes.

martinjudge73

lazygal wrote: »

So regardless of how a girl or woman feels about being pregnant she must be compelled to remain pregnant. Unless she can travel, that is, or is at risk of dying. What do you think would happen if women weren't allowed to travel to kill the unborn?

Hold on.. I'm not debating right/wrongs of all this. Just look around ireland, there simply is not the support for removing this sentence from our constitution.

You would be surprised but people don't want dead children. I know a women personally who was about to have an abortion, her friend told her mother and her mother raced to Dublin, told her unconditionally she would support her with the child. I think most families are like that, once they know everyone rallys around. So to present to people a vote that would mean killing their grandchildren on Irish soil might be a step too far. That is my pragmatic view.

We might be pretty liberal when it comes to accepting gay marriage, however abortion is another kettle of fish.

stinkle

Abortion is already a thing in Ireland, we just have a typical Irish solution to an Irish problem which means they actually occur elsewhere. Women shouldnt have to travel to access this, and not every woman is able to travel anyway due to myriad reasons such as finances, visa issues, other family responsibilities and so on. It happens anyway, get over it and allow women to access basic healthcare in their own country.

No contraception is 100% effective. No woman should be forced to go full term on a non-viable pregnancy, and rape victims should not have to go through with a pregnancy either.

lazygal

martinjudge73 wrote: »

Hold on.. I'm not debating right/wrongs of all this. Just look around ireland, there simply is not the support for removing this sentence from our constitution.

You would be surprised but people don't want dead children. I know a women personally who was about to have an abortion, her friend told her mother and her mother raced to Dublin, told her unconditionally she would support her with the child. I think most families are like that, once they know everyone rallys around. So to present to people a vote that would mean killing their grandchildren on Irish soil might be a step too far. That is my pragmatic view.

We might be pretty liberal when it comes to accepting gay marriage, however abortion is another kettle of fish.

Anecdotes aren't data. You keep saying the Irish people want to keep compulsory gestation in the constitution but you haven't produced any stats to back up this claim. So one woman's changed her mind. What about those who want to access abortion? What should they do?

Icepick

mahoganygas wrote: »

I admire how he has turned many church traditions on their head.

He hasn't changed anything.

He said a few liberal things but the Vatican has made no changes to the doctrine and heavily supported anti gay rights referendums in Europe.

martinjudge73

lazygal wrote: »

Anecdotes aren't data. You keep saying the Irish people want to keep compulsory gestation in the constitution but you haven't produced any stats to back up this claim. So one woman's changed her mind. What about those who want to access abortion? What should they do?

As my grandmother said.. if you don't want to get pregnant, then keep your knickers on. compulsory gestation is only compulsory if the women is raped, otherwise it was a choice she made. Live with the choice.

As for the stats.. well you will see in the next election. Fine Gael/Fianna won't have it in their manifest because they would not get elected.

Maybe when there is a left wing government you might have a chance, since we haven't had one do you think a right wing party will touch abortion?

If Enda thought that abortion would help FG.. he would push it. The political reality is that abortion is too hot and divisive to touch, any referendum would be defeated.

Would I like to see my daughters having an abortion if her life was not at risk.. Certainly not. And there are a lot of parents like me.

The dogs on he street know it.

lazygal

I wouldn't want my daughter to be compelled to remain pregnant if she didn't want to be and I'd like more say over my uterus. I wouldn't dream of racing to stop my daughter having an abortion if it was the right decision for her. I'd hate for her to have to travel to access the medical services that should be available here. Hopefully by the time she's older the eighth amendment will be long gone.
As for comments like "keep your knickers on", what do you mean? If you have sex and use contraception and don't want to remain pregnant tough? Unless you head off under the right to travel to kill the unborn amendment?

martinjudge73

lazygal wrote: »

I wouldn't want my daughter to be compelled to remain pregnant if she didn't want to be and I'd like more say over my uterus. I wouldn't dream of racing to stop my daughter having an abortion if it was the right decision for her. I'd hate for her to have to travel to access the medical services that should be available here. Hopefully by the time she's older the eighth amendment will be long gone.
As for comments like "keep your knickers on", what do you mean? If you have sex and use contraception and don't want to remain pregnant tough? Unless you head off under the right to travel to kill the unborn amendment?

Well.. Ask and see how many TD's will support a referendum. That will get you your statistics.

I would never ever support my daughters having an abortion.(if their lives are not at risk) A dead child is not the solution to a problem, it just creates another problem.

lazygal

martinjudge73 wrote: »

Well.. Ask and see how many TD's will support a referendum. That will get you your statistics.

I would never ever support my daughters having an abortion.(if their lives are not at risk) A dead child is not the solution to a problem, it just creates another problem.

I would never ever support telling my daughter what to do with her reproductive choices. Compulsory gestation is not the solution to a problem, it just creates another problem.
One of my local tds does support doing away with compulsory gestation. They'll be getting my vote. Do you have any statistics on how people would vote in a referendum on repealing the eighth amendment yet?

eviltwin

martinjudge73 wrote: »

Well.. Ask and see how many TD's will support a referendum. That will get you your statistics.

I would never ever support my daughters having an abortion.(if their lives are not at risk) A dead child is not the solution to a problem, it just creates another problem.

What problem does it create

lazygal

eviltwin wrote: »

What problem does it create

WomenHurt might roll out it's traveling road show of regret to tell you all women regret killing their unborn babies and the biased media won't tell you this. Or something about abortion stealing our future I'd say.

martinjudge73

lazygal wrote: »

I would never ever support telling my daughter what to do with her reproductive choices. Compulsory gestation is not the solution to a problem, it just creates another problem.
One of my local tds does support doing away with compulsory gestation. They'll be getting my vote. Do you have any statistics on how people would vote in a referendum on repealing the eighth amendment yet?

Well as I say to my daughters.. Guys that just want to have sex. but no kids are not men at all. When it comes to having kids.. You either want them or you don't. If you get pregnant I will unconditionally support my grandchildren. A dead child solves nothing.

You have to teach your children to be responsible for their acts. There are a lot of strings attached to having sex. So find the right person. I always tell them to find a guy who wants kids if you want to have sex.. If he does not want kids, then he won't respect them in the long run..

lazygal

martinjudge73 wrote: »

Well as I say to my daughters.. Guys that just want to have sex. but no kids are not men at all. When it comes to having kids.. You either want them or you don't. If you get pregnant I will unconditionally support my grandchildren. A dead child solves nothing.

You have to teach your children to be responsible for their acts. There are a lot of strings attached to having sex. So find the right person. I always tell them to find a guy who wants kids if you want to have sex.. If he does not want kids, then he won't respect them in the long run..

Is having an abortion not taking responsibility for your actions? Should the right to travel to avail of abortion services be repealed? Do you think anyone ever changes their mind about wanting to have children?