Second coming of the Pope to coincide with General Election issue of 8th amendment?

PopePalpatine

I honestly feel sorry for your daughters if they feel like they can't continue with a pregnancy, knowing that Daddy will disown them.

lazygal

martinjudge73 wrote: »

My thinking is based on the facts. To say that companies can't get people to come to Ireland because we don't have abortion because it would put women at risk is a lie, and the facts don't back this up. Our constitution and laws don't put womens life at risk. Just because women like josie cunningham can't have an abortion on demand so they can have a nose job, does not mean that women are at risk in Ireland because we give the child and mother the right to life.

What about the risks to health of pregnancy and birth? You don't care about what they are I suppose. Or the unborn brought elsewhere to be killed.

martinjudge73

lazygal wrote: »

What about the risks to health of pregnancy and birth? You don't care about what they are I suppose. Or the unborn brought elsewhere to be killed.

Doctors are trained to manage risk. If there is a threat to the mothers life they will terminate the pregnancy. Its already happening. We already have these procedures that are classed as an abortion. The main distinction is that nobody set out to harm the child, its still respected. However the mothers life has an equal right.

Women are not dying in ireland because we dont have on demand abortion.

lazygal

martinjudge73 wrote: »

Doctors are trained to manage risk. If there is a threat to the mothers life they will terminate the pregnancy. Its already happening. We already have these procedures that are classed as an abortion. The main distinction is that nobody set out to harm the child, its still respected. However the mothers life has an equal right.

Women are not dying in ireland because we dont have on demand abortion.

Women are travelling for abortion in cases of a risk to their health. Is that acceptable to.you?

martinjudge73

lazygal wrote: »

Women are travelling for abortion in cases of a risk to their health. Is that acceptable to.you?

People travel all the time... Our laws are for our land. We can stand for all human rights in ireland, born, unborn, gay, straight, black, white.. We can be the most inclusive society. We have one of the only constitutions what protects all human rights.

volchitsa

martinjudge73 wrote: »

Doctors are trained to manage risk. If there is a threat to the mothers life they will terminate the pregnancy. Its already happening. We already have these procedures that are classed as an abortion. The main distinction is that nobody set out to harm the child, its still respected. However the mothers life has an equal right.

Women are not dying in ireland because we dont have on demand abortion.

The law specifically doesn't allow termination, even when there is no hope of a living baby, and even when the woman is likely to end up injured by continuing the pregnancy. Only when the risk is to their life, but not to their health, can doctors legally terminate.

So is it acceptable to you for women to be left alive but permanently damaged because of a doomed pregnancy, when her health could be saved by an earlier termination?

lazygal

martinjudge73 wrote: »

People travel all the time... Our laws are for our land. We can stand for all human rights in ireland, born, unborn, gay, straight, black, white.. We can be the most inclusive society. We have one of the only constitutions what protects all human rights.

We prevent people travelling to abuse born children, yet have constitutionally protected the right of women to travel to kill the unborn, which are supposed to be protected under our constitution. Do you see any contradiction in that?

martinjudge73

volchitsa wrote: »

The law specifically doesn't allow termination, even when there is no hope of a living baby, and even when the woman is likely to end up injured by continuing the pregnancy. Only when the risk is to their life, but not to their health, can doctors legally terminate.

So is it acceptable to you for women to be left alive but permanently damaged because of a doomed pregnancy, when her health could be saved by an earlier termination?

So you want to use that argument to the likes of Josie cunningham can have an abortion so she can get a nose job?

My father destroyed my life.. I have the scars, would it justify me killing him?

lazygal

martinjudge73 wrote: »

So you want to use that argument to the likes of Josie cunningham can have an abortion so she can get a nose job?

My father destroyed my life.. I have the scars, would it justify me killing him?

Why are you so concerned about the reasons for abortion? If a woman wants an abortion she can have one if she can travel. All you're doing is making a necessary medical procedure more difficult and expensive. You're not helping the unborn in the slightest by your intransigence on the eighth amendment.

martinjudge73

lazygal wrote: »

Why are you so concerned about the reasons for abortion? If a woman wants an abortion she can have one if she can travel. All you're doing is making a necessary medical procedure more difficult and expensive. You're not helping the unborn in the slightest by your intransigence on the eighth amendment.

Call it what you like, but and unborn child is still a child.

I am concerned about the laws of our land. That we dont de-humanise our children into possible medical waste on irish soil.

lazygal

martinjudge73 wrote: »

Call it what you like, but and unborn child is still a child.

I am concerned about the laws of our land. That we dont de-humanise our children into possible medical waste on irish soil.

So the main thing isn't stopping women and children having abortions, it's about not having them able to have them in Ireland. I thought as much.

frostyjacks

We can only control our own laws. If women want to travel to foreign countries to kill their children, that's on them. Doesn't mean we should change our laws to suit them.

lazygal

frostyjacks wrote: »

We can only control our own laws. If women want to travel to foreign countries to kill their children, that's on them. Doesn't mean we should change our laws to suit them.

Should we prosecute them on return after they've killed the unborn? Or prevent them from leaving to kill their unborn in the first place?

PopePalpatine

frostyjacks wrote: »

We can only control our own laws. If women want to travel to foreign countries to kill their children, that's on them. Doesn't mean we should change our laws to suit them.

If that's the case, why couldn't Bernadette Fleming travel to Dignitas?

volchitsa

martinjudge73 wrote: »

So you want to use that argument to the likes of Josie cunningham can have an abortion so she can get a nose job?

My father destroyed my life.. I have the scars, would it justify me killing him?

But the likes of Josie Cunningham can have an abortion already, by going to the UK, and her right to do so is protected by the constitution. So that's a completely irrelevant objection. My point is about women with genuine health issues, not about women who want nose jobs.

Is it acceptable to you that our laws specify that a woman should have to lose her health even when the baby can't be saved, yet the Josie Cunninghams of Ireland are legally entitled to abortions if they want them?

martinjudge73

volchitsa wrote: »

But the likes of Josie Cunningham can have an abortion already, by going to the UK, and her right to do so is protected by the constitution. So that's a completely irrelevant objection. My point is about women with genuine health issues, not about women who want nose jobs.

Is it acceptable to you that our laws specify that a woman should have to lose her health even when the baby can't be saved, yet the Josie Cunninghams of Ireland are legally entitled to abortions if they want them?

This subsection shall not limit freedom to travel between the State and another state.
This subsection shall not limit freedom to obtain or make available, in the State, subject to such conditions as may be laid down by law, information relating to services lawfully available in another state.

Women travel.. The laws of our land are for our land.

Doctors are not sitting around while a pregnant womens life is deteriorating. they manage these risks in Ireland all the time. Your argument is a wedge that comes up again and again to bring in abortion on demand.

A 2004 study by the Guttmacher Institute indicates that only 4% of women who had an abortion cited concern for their own health as the primary reason for seeking an abortion. Maternal health concerns covered a broad range of “conditions,” including gestational diabetes and morning sickness, both of which are naturally occurring physiological reactions to pregnancy. Most commonly, women cited “feeling too ill during the pregnancy to work or take care of children” as their primary health concern.

lazygal

martinjudge73 wrote: »

Women travel.. The laws of our land are for our land.

Doctors are not sitting around while a pregnant womens life is deteriorating. they manage these risks in Ireland all the time. Your argument is a wedge that comes up again and again to bring in abortion on demand.

So once again, you're not the slightest bit concerned about the women and children travelling to kill the unborn or the health risks faced faced by those who can't travel. Once I don't die while pregnant, the other risks don't matter.
It's also pathetic that you cite a section of a report that suggests women are lazy and feckless when they choose abortion. Having never been pregnant you'll have no idea of how debilitating it can be. I'm sure you'll now trot out stories of all the women you know who had no issues at all or powered through astonishing adversity while pregnant as some sort of reasoning for keeping women second class citizens when pregnant.

martinjudge73

lazygal wrote: »

So once again, you're not the slightest bit concerned about the women and children travelling to kill the unborn or the health risks faced faced by those who can't travel. Once I don't die while pregnant, the other risks don't matter.

We all know that the argument for abortion is not about health risks.. So lets be honest. 95%+ of abortions in the Uk are only elective. The child has downs syndrome or another genetic defect (Zero risk to the mother) Or its the wrong gender.

• Having a baby would dramatically change my life Would interfere with education
• Would interfere with job/employment/career Have other children or dependents
• Can’t afford a baby now
• Unmarried
• Student or planning to study Can’t afford a baby and child care Can’t afford the basic needs of life Unemployed
• Can’t leave job to take care of a baby
• Would have to find a new place to live
• Not enough support from husband or partner Husband or partner is unemployed
• Currently or temporarily on welfare or public assistance
• Don’t want to be a single mother or having relationship problems Not sure about relationship
• Partner and I can’t or don’t want to get married
• Not in a relationship right now
• Relationship or marriage may break up soon
• Husband or partner is abusive to me or my children Have completed my childbearing
• Not ready for a(nother) child†
• Don’t want people to know I had sex or got pregnant Don’t feel mature enough to raise a(nother) child Husband or partner wants me to have an abortion Possible problems affecting the health of the fetus Physical problem with my health
• Parents want me to have an abortion Was a victim of rape
• Became pregnant as a result of incest

So lets get real about your arguments which are the extreme end of the wedge. Where does health risks feature in the list?


We already have abortion in Ireland when there is a threat to a mothers life.

lazygal

martinjudge73 wrote: »

We all know that the argument for abortion is not about health risks.. So lets be honest. 95%+ of abortions in the Uk are only elective. The child has downs syndrome or another genetic defect (Zero risk to the mother) Or its the wrong gender.

• Having a baby would dramatically change my life Would interfere with education
• Would interfere with job/employment/career Have other children or dependents
• Can’t afford a baby now
• Unmarried
• Student or planning to study Can’t afford a baby and child care Can’t afford the basic needs of life Unemployed
• Can’t leave job to take care of a baby
• Would have to find a new place to live
• Not enough support from husband or partner Husband or partner is unemployed
• Currently or temporarily on welfare or public assistance
• Don’t want to be a single mother or having relationship problems Not sure about relationship
• Partner and I can’t or don’t want to get married
• Not in a relationship right now
• Relationship or marriage may break up soon
• Husband or partner is abusive to me or my children Have completed my childbearing
• Not ready for a(nother) child†
• Don’t want people to know I had sex or got pregnant Don’t feel mature enough to raise a(nother) child Husband or partner wants me to have an abortion Possible problems affecting the health of the fetus Physical problem with my health
• Parents want me to have an abortion Was a victim of rape
• Became pregnant as a result of incest

So lets get real about your arguments which are the extreme end of the wedge. Where does health risks feature in the list?

Why is one reason for an abortion more valid than another? If a woman doesn't want to remain pregnant, I don't care how trivial some might think her reasons are. She should be able to access it as easily and early as possible in a safe manner. Why would I care about someone else's reproductive choices?
Let's get real. You don't care about the unborn, just about making sure abortion doesn't happen in Ireland.

martinjudge73

lazygal wrote: »

Why is one reason for an abortion more valid than another? If a woman doesn't want to remain pregnant, I don't care how trivial some might think her reasons are. She should be able to access it as easily and early as possible in a safe manner. Why would I care about someone else's reproductive choices?

Why should one unborn life have value and another not? Why should we take a step backwards and remove a human right in our constitution. A right that protected us as Irish citizens.

Cabaal

frostyjacks wrote: »

We can only control our own laws. If women want to travel to foreign countries to kill their children, that's on them. Doesn't mean we should change our laws to suit them.

But if somebody plans to travel to kill themselves in another country and the Gardai are informed then they'll take option to stop the person traveling. Infact there's been cases were travel agents have informed the Gardai of such suspicions.

If you believe abortion is murder then by your logic the Gardai should stop any women wishing to travel to have an abortion.

Either a abortion is murder or its not, you can't be wishy washy about it and say its ok once nobody does it in Ireland.

lazygal

martinjudge73 wrote: »

Why should one unborn life have value and another not? Why should we take a step backwards and remove a human right in our constitution. A right that protected us as Irish citizens.

Why does an unborn child inside a woman who can't travel remain there until birth but one inside a woman who can travel can be aborted? And the unborn right to life goes out the window if a woman's life is at risk. Doesn't sound like a terribly equal system to me.

Shrap

Oh FFS. When any combination of the above does not strike someone as a "good enough" reason not to have a child, then I think this conversation is over.

"I'm not married" might sound like a trivial reason today in our society for example, but in someone's culture that has a similarly oppressive outcast system as our Catholic one did in the 1950's, then it's fairly fecking understandable, no? No. Ok then.

We are arguing with people incapable of seeing a 9 week foetus as less important than a grown woman, people.

martinjudge73

lazygal wrote: »

Why does an unborn child inside a woman who can't travel remain there until birth but one inside a woman who can travel can be aborted? And the unborn right to life goes out the window if a woman's life is at risk. Doesn't sound like a terribly equal system to me.

There is no conflict of rights when irish doctors terminate a pregnancy to save a mothers life, this is best medical practice in all countries. Nobody made a choice to kill the child. You can't let mother and child die.

The terrible system is in the uk where children are turned into medical waste so a mother can go on holidays or have a nose job.

lazygal

martinjudge73 wrote: »

There is no conflict of rights when irish doctors terminate a pregnancy to save a mothers life, this is best medical practice in all countries. Nobody made a choice to kill the child. You can't let mother and child die.

The terrible system is in the uk where children are turned into medical waste so a mother can go on holidays or have a nose job.

And women who travel can have abortions for whatever whacky reasons they want. You're not worried about the rights of those unborn children at all though, the main thing is making sure those who can't afford or aren't well enough to travel remain pregnant regardless of their health. Once they don't die, they must remain gestators.

Cabaal

martinjudge73 wrote: »

We all know that the argument for abortion is not about health risks..

The reason for a women to have an abortion in the UK is really of none of your concern, it boils down to choice. Women are entitled to have control of their body.

Also, do you have hard data to support your claim from a reliable source?

• Having a baby would dramatically change my life Would interfere with education
• Would interfere with job/employment/career Have other children or dependents
• Can’t afford a baby now
• Unmarried
• Student or planning to study Can’t afford a baby and child care Can’t afford the basic needs of life Unemployed
• Can’t leave job to take care of a baby
• Would have to find a new place to live
• Not enough support from husband or partner Husband or partner is unemployed
• Currently or temporarily on welfare or public assistance
• Don’t want to be a single mother or having relationship problems Not sure about relationship
• Partner and I can’t or don’t want to get married
• Not in a relationship right now
• Relationship or marriage may break up soon
• Husband or partner is abusive to me or my children Have completed my childbearing
• Not ready for a(nother) child†
• Don’t want people to know I had sex or got pregnant Don’t feel mature enough to raise a(nother) child Husband or partner wants me to have an abortion Possible problems affecting the health of the fetus Physical problem with my health
  
• Parents want me to have an abortion Was a victim of rape
• Became pregnant as a result of incest

So lets get real about your arguments which are the extreme end of the wedge. Where does health risks feature in the list?

Yes, lets get real.
So mental health issues are not health issues now?

Unless you're one of those fools that thinks people should just "get on with things" I can very much assure you that mental health issues are most certainly health issues and much of what you have listed can very much be a trigger for massive mental health issues for a person.

Your mental health is extremely important and can very much so impact on your physical well being as well.

On the subject of the last two specifically, pregnant out of a rape must certainly does involve health issues that is without a question. Only a complete idiot disregards the mental health of a women who has been raped and now has the rapists off spring inside her.

Ignoring the women very fragile mental state at such a stage could very easily lead to a full mental breakdown, this to any reasonable person is perfectly understandable of course because the women has been forcible violated against her will and she knows that she continues to be violated by the rapist each day....beyond the physiological scares she she will always have due to the rape.

Additionally incest comes with the same mental health issues as more often then not incest is forced upon the child/teenager girl. Once again only a complete idiot ignores this very important mental health issue and the ongoing emotiional and mental scares caused by it.

Incest also comes with potential issues from the viewpoint in relation inbreeding. Unless you think inbreeding is a perfectly acceptable and healthy thing to do?

I find it deeply worrying that you are completely ignoring the extreme importance of mental health to the women of Ireland as the manner in which you have posted about this topic in a very ill-informed and with all due respect very offensive.

It is clear you do not understand the importance of good mental health and the importance of a good support structure for vulnerable women in situations where they have been forced against their will to have sex. No women in such a situation should have her well informed wishes completely disregarded.

Your flippant attitude to mental health is deeply worrying and I hope for everyone else sake that you never encounter a loved one or friend with mental health issues as its evident you don't appear to take mental health very seriously as you don't appear to consider it a actual health issue.

Shrap

lazygal wrote: »

And women who travel can have abortions for whatever whacky reasons they want. You're not worried about the rights of those unborn children at all though, the main thing is making sure those who can't afford or aren't well enough to travel remain pregnant regardless of their health. Once they don't die, they must remain gestators.

No actually, I disagree as to what the main thing is. The main thing is to keep abortion out of this country because if abortion was here, it might be easier for girls and women with crisis pregnancies to choose abortion, and that would be somehow a bad thing (unspecified, except by much bleating about "babies).

Oh no, wait.....that's the same main thing. Ok, I think we have the gist of their argument now, ie. CONTROL CHOICE.

lazygal

Shrap wrote: »

No actually, I disagree as to what the main thing is. The main thing is to keep abortion out of this country because if abortion was here, it might be easier for girls and women with crisis pregnancies to choose abortion, and that would be somehow a bad thing (unspecified, except by much bleating about "babies).

Oh no, wait.....that's the same main thing. Ok, I think we have the gist of their argument now, ie. CONTROL CHOICE.

But Planned Parenthood!!! Baby parts!!! Abortions everywhere all the time!!!!

Shrap

lazygal wrote: »

But Planned Parenthood!!! Baby parts!!! Abortions everywhere all the time!!!!

What? Those are arguments? Lol.


Seriously though, to add to Cabaal above there, and I know many women will recognise this - I've been lonely many times in my life and I've struggled with it like many have, but I've never been near as lonely as the time I was pregnant and wanted to be alone.

There's something quite unbearably appalling about the time you don't want to be gestating a life, but you feel like you have no choice. Who said it earlier about the film Alien? Yes. Very similar.

Cabaal

martinjudge73 wrote: »

Why should one unborn life have value and another not? Why should we take a step backwards and remove a human right in our constitution. A right that protected us as Irish citizens.

Indeed,
Why should one human life be less valuable by allowing the other to travel and "murder it"?

Either life is valuable or its not, if its so valuable then really you need to look for travel restrictions and legal charges against any women wishing to travel for an abortion.

If you fail to do this then you are simply saying that some human lifes are less valuable then others and you're no different to the pro-choice people you claim to not agree with. it basically boils down to you believe abortions are murder, but you're fine with somebody traveling to murder.

It seems you can't even stand up for what you claim to believe in and say nobody should be allowed to travel for an abortion, its really rather pathetic.
:rolleyes: