Second coming of the Pope to coincide with General Election issue of 8th amendment?

martinjudge73

Cabaal wrote: »

and what if it wasn't effective..after all they are not 100% effective (5% chance it won't work if taken within 24hrs),

What if she got pregnant from the rape? Would you be ok with her being pregnant from a rape...more importantly would she?

On a side note, I'm actually curious about this.
If a women gets pregnant from a rape, what happens if the rapist wants access to their offspring?

If the MAD did not work they would not abort the child, if they knew they were pregnant it would not be the childs fault. As bad as the situation was, its not fair to off the child. However if the mother could not take this pregnancy and was suicidal then she can have an abortion under Irish law.. Its already happening and legal.

Why do the pro-abortion arguments always go the extreme case and not what is happening 99% of the time? You can't dress up abortion in any other way than what it is.. its killing a child.

eviltwin

martinjudge73 wrote: »

If the MAD did not work they would not abort the child, if they knew they were pregnant it would not be the childs fault. As bad as the situation was, its not fair to off the child. However if the mother could not take this pregnancy and was suicidal then she can have an abortion under Irish law.. Its already happening and legal.

Why do the pro-abortion arguments always go the extreme case and not what is happening 99% of the time? You can't dress up abortion in any other way than what it is.. its killing a child.

A woman shouldn't have to be on the verge of suicide before she can have an abortion.....utterly ridiculous. Again abortion is not killing a child. It's a potential child. Might as well say it's killing a teenager or a pensioner.

lazygal

martinjudge73 wrote: »

If the MAD did not work they would not abort the child, if they knew they were pregnant it would not be the childs fault. As bad as the situation was, its not fair to off the child. However if the mother could not take this pregnancy and was suicidal then she can have an abortion under Irish law.. Its already happening and legal.

Why do the pro-abortion arguments always go the extreme case and not what is happening 99% of the time? You can't dress up abortion in any other way than what it is.. its killing a child.

Why are prolifers always going to the extreme of late term abortions and the number of abortions carried out for reasons of disability? The morning after pill is seen by some as the same as an abortion, it prevents implantation. How come you think its ok to use, but preventing any further development of a zygote is always wrong no matter what?

Cabaal

lazygal wrote: »

Why are prolifers always going to the extreme of late term abortions and the number of abortions carried out for reasons of disability? The morning after pill is seen by some as the same as an abortion, it prevents implantation. How come you think its ok to use, but preventing any further development of a zygote is always wrong no matter what?

Because reasons.......

Lets not forget even wearing a condom is against the Catholic church's teachings,

martinjudge73

eviltwin wrote: »

A woman shouldn't have to be on the verge of suicide before she can have an abortion.....utterly ridiculous. Again abortion is not killing a child. It's a potential child. Might as well say it's killing a teenager or a pensioner.

Whats the point of this thread// Neither of us will change our opinions. Honestly I have seen dozens of women breakdown when they miscarry.. This didn't loose a potential child, they lost their real child.

Anyway ce la vie. What is there to debate.

lazygal

martinjudge73 wrote: »

Whats the point of this thread// Neither of us will change our opinions. Honestly I have seen dozens of women breakdown when they miscarry.. This didn't loose a potential child, they lost their real child.

Anyway ce la vie. What is there to debate.

The debate is why you or anyone else has the right to vote on restricting medical care for women and girls.

stinkle

martinjudge73 wrote: »

Whats the point of this thread// Neither of us will change our opinions. Honestly I have seen dozens of women breakdown when they miscarry.. This didn't loose a potential child, they lost their real child.

Anyway ce la vie. What is there to debate.

They felt that way because they wanted a child. Calling a foetus a child is just projecting your emotions and opinion. It's still a foetus, and in a wanted pregnancy will hopefully develop into a child. Just because someone unfortunately miscarries a wanted pregnancy doesn't mean others shouldn't have the choice to end an unwanted pregnancy if they face one.

You seem to know an awful lot of women based on your anecdotes btw. Statistically, some of them have had abortions, they just haven't mentioned it to you.

Cabaal

stinkle wrote: »

Statistically, some of them have had abortions, they just haven't mentioned it to you.

To be fair...who could blame them?

rainbow kirby

lazygal wrote: »

The debate is why you or anyone else has the right to vote on restricting medical care for women and girls.

Yep, the 8th amendment affects more than just abortion, it is also miscarriage management, choices in childbirth, treatment of other conditions and end-of-life decisions. It needs to go before more people are killed or maimed as a direct result of it.

stinkle

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Yep, the 8th amendment affects more than just abortion, it is also miscarriage management, choices in childbirth, treatment of other conditions and end-of-life decisions. It needs to go before more people are killed or maimed as a direct result of it.

Its terrifying and one of the reasons I'm considering starting a family either earlier than expected in my adopted country as opposed to waiting till I return to Ireland. Or scrap the Ireland plan and move to elsewhere in the EU.

It seems like the government have a target of dead/tortured women to reach before they act. One is one too many.

rainbow kirby

We are starting ours in the UK - I feel a lot safer using NHS services here than I would back home.

Cabaal

Just on yesterdays question...has a pregnancy happened out of rape.

Yes, on the Island of Ireland just recently,

http://www.thejournal.ie/arrest-12-year-old-pregnant-west-belfast-2372731-Oct2015/

A 19-YEAR-old male has been arrested after a young girl (12) was found to be pregnant.

The PSNI confirmed that a 19-year-old man was arrested in the west Belfast area on Thursday 1 October in regard to a sexual offence.

He has since been released on police bail.

The arrest is understood to be in relation to a 12-year-old who is pregnant.

Still think abortion in cases of rape is wrong?

martinjudge73

lazygal wrote: »

The debate is why you or anyone else has the right to vote on restricting medical care for women and girls.

Who is restricting Medical care to Women of Girls?

Again is Medical Care another term dressed up to justify intentionally killing a child?

Lots to pregnancies are terminated in Ireland when Medical care is needed. Neither the Mother or Doctor wanted the child dead, but when there is no choice in the matter the procedure must be done.

Women are not dying in Irish hospitals while doctors sit around looking at them waste away.. Are they?? Doctors don't have to run to a judge when a women presents with an ectopic pregnancy.. Do they? Or severe Preeclampsia.??

Why is the pro-choice side saying we don't have medical care? Are more women Dying in Irish hospitals than in the UK?

Pherekydes

martinjudge73 wrote: »

Again is Medical Care another term dressed up to justify intentionally killing a child?

Again, are ectopic pregnancies and severe Pre-eclampsia just medical terms dressed up to justify intentionally killing a child?

Be consistent...

After all, if they want medical treatment for ectopic pregnancies they can go to the UK...

lazygal

martinjudge73 wrote: »

Who is restricting Medical care to Women of Girls?

Again is Medical Care another term dressed up to justify intentionally killing a child?

Lots to pregnancies are terminated in Ireland when Medical care is needed. Neither the Mother or Doctor wanted the child dead, but when there is no choice in the matter the procedure must be done.

Women are not dying in Irish hospitals while doctors sit around looking at them waste away.. Are they?? Doctors don't have to run to a judge when a women presents with an ectopic pregnancy.. Do they? Or severe Preeclampsia.??

Why is the pro-choice side saying we don't have medical care? Are more women Dying in Irish hospitals than in the UK?

A woman was dead and rotting away because of the eighth amendment. Not dying in childbirth or during pregnancy is a very low standard for women in Ireland in terms of medical care. Why is it ok to have an abortion for some reasons, but not others? Why would a baby's right to life be secondary to a woman's during pregnancy?

martinjudge73

lazygal wrote: »

A woman was dead and rotting away because of the eighth amendment. Not dying in childbirth or during pregnancy is a very low standard for women in Ireland in terms of medical care. Why is it ok to have an abortion for some reasons, but not others? Why would a baby's right to life be secondary to a woman's during pregnancy?

What does the eight amendment say?

The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.

A Women has the right to life. It is in our constitution and out laws support this. So again why do we need to change this?

Dozens of people die in Irish hospitals because of sub-standard under funded health care.. Our constitution is right.. our underfunded health care is wrong. If our healthcare was properly funded and staffed people would not be dying on trolleys or sitting on them for days.

So again.. Why should change that phrase in our constitution which guarantees that our laws allow the right to life of a baby and mother?

lazygal

martinjudge73 wrote: »

What does the eight amendment say?



A Women has the right to life. It is in our constitution and out laws support this. So again why do we need to change this?

Dozens of people die in Irish hospitals because of sub-standard under funded health care.. Our constitution is right.. our underfunded health care is wrong. If our healthcare was properly funded and staffed people would not be dying on trolleys or sitting on them for days.

So again.. Why should change that phrase in our constitution which guarantees that our laws allow the right to life of a baby and mother?

We should change it because it has been an utter disaster for women and girls living in Ireland. Nothing about it has done any good for anyone. Forcing women and children to gestate a foetus regardless of any risks to their health, or even when they are dead, makes one set of people second class citizens.

martinjudge73

lazygal wrote: »

We should change it because it has been an utter disaster for women and girls living in Ireland. Nothing about it has done any good for anyone. Forcing women and children to gestate a foetus regardless of any risks to their health, or even when they are dead, makes one set of people second class citizens.

What Risks? If the mothers life is at risk then doctors already terminate the pregnancy here in Ireland. I know a cousin of mine have had to sadly end the pregnancy.

Women are lot let to die in Irish hospitals because the pregnancy is going to kill them.. Doctors are trained to spot and manage these risk and to deal with them. Our laws require doctors to ensure pregnant mothers don't die..

So. Why do we need on demand abortion?

martinjudge73

I suppose what you want are for us to change our constitution so the likes of Josie Cunningham can have an abortion to allow her have a nose Job??

Metroboulot

There's actually a growing economic cost to this too.

Ireland is getting a reputation as being a dangerous place to relocate to if you're a woman of childbearing age or if your partner is or your daughters might be.

If you think of how we're perceived abroad, it's not always as this happy gay friendly, liberal place. We're usually seen through the lens of our past as that's what hits headlines and gets talked about : Magdalene laundries (Philomena etc), the Savita case, the blasphemy law, the northern troubles (often totally misunderstood as being a religious war), ultra conservatism etc etc etc

Some of us spend half of our time trying to show the other side of Ireland to overcome all that!

That's going to impact on inward investment and especially the development of the IT sector as there are lots of young, talented females who would have second thoughts about moving here because of stuff like this.


I've heard it discussed at meetings along with the Irish introduction of blasphemy legalisation which raised serious questions about hosting facilities here for some companies at the time.

Should there ever be a blasphemy prosecution you can waive bye bye to the data centres. They'll be stripped and shipped to a less nutty location.

Like it or not, we are judged by and compared to other Western EU countries and on a few areas like this we are still more in line with a few crazy theocratic states.

We've moved forward a lot, but there are still some very odd legacy issues that jump out like this.

Also the fact that secular schools are basically illegal here under the current rules for primary schools anyway and over 92% of schools are religious is another barrier to relocating big companies here.

We're not in the days when the big American firm brings a load of unskilled jobs to some remote village. We're trying to grow several major high tech R&D hubs and Irish companies are trying to grow too and need to have Dublin, Cork, Galway etc as attractive places to relocate to.

This stuff has to be considered too. It's not all an abstract debate about religious philosophy. These decisions have real economic impacts and real impacts on people's lives l.

martinjudge73

Metroboulot wrote: »

There's actually a growing economic cost to this too.

Ireland is getting a reputation as being a dangerous place to relocate to if you're a woman of childbearing age or if your partner is or your daughters might be.

Really.. That is why Ireland has the HIGHEST birth rate in europe.

And I know dozens of expats who have had children here and no issue. Lots of private hospitals around.

Metroboulot

That's people who are familiar with Ireland or live here already.

Our high birth rate is largely down to demographics - lots of people of childbearing age due to a previous baby boom in the late 70s to mid 80s.

The issue I'm talking about is Ireland image as a place to relocate or setup a business.

These questions genuinely come up. We live in a bit of a self-congratulatory bubble at times. Our image abroad is a bit weird.

I've had overseas execs asking if they would be OK here due to the "religious thing"...

I know one US exec who opted to relocate back home for 3 years to have a kid.
Likewise, I know a French journalist who was concerned that she might be arrested here for having published anti-religious material (as has actually happened in Greece which has similar but actively enforced legislation)

Like it or not a lot of people perceive Ireland as a catholic version of the US Bible Belt because of all this stuff.

rainbow kirby

All the private health care in the world means very little when your doctor's hands are still tied by the law.

volchitsa

martinjudge73 wrote: »

What Risks? If the mothers life is at risk then doctors already terminate the pregnancy here in Ireland. I know a cousin of mine have had to sadly end the pregnancy.

Women are lot let to die in Irish hospitals because the pregnancy is going to kill them.. Doctors are trained to spot and manage these risk and to deal with them. Our laws require doctors to ensure pregnant mothers don't die..

So. Why do we need on demand abortion?

And yet doctors at the cutting edge recently came out in support of the Amnesty campaign, and the reports into Savita Halappanavard's death said that the legal situation appeared to have played a role in her lack of pro-active treatment.

So you know better than Dr Rhona Mahony do you? :roll:

martinjudge73

Metroboulot wrote: »

That's people who are familiar with Ireland or live here already.

Our high birth rate is largely down to demographics - lots of people of childbearing age due to a previous baby boom in the late 70s to mid 80s.

The issue I'm talking about is Ireland image as a place to relocate or setup a business.

These questions genuinely come up. We live in a bit of a self-congratulatory bubble at times. Our image abroad is a bit weird.

I've had overseas execs asking if they would be OK here due to the "religious thing"...

To be honest I am not interested in the image of a live child instead of a dead one.

Didn't uncle sam fine clinics packaging up baby parts of "donation"..., worse than animal testing.

Shrap

martinjudge73 wrote: »

I suppose what you want are for us to change our constitution so the likes of Josie Cunningham can have an abortion to allow her have a nose Job??

That's truly the stupidest thing I've read in a long time. That's like saying all media should be banned because Katie Hopkins is on it.

No, I rather we change our constitution so that ordinary, everyday women and girls who are in serious crisis because they have become pregnant for whatever reason and feel themselves to be in no position to bear a child, can do what women have always done under those circumstances and have an abortion.

By trivialising the personal reasons that hundreds of thousands of Irish women have for abortion, you're showing yourself up as lacking in insight, compassion and above all, respect.

lazygal

martinjudge73 wrote: »

Really.. That is why Ireland has the HIGHEST birth rate in europe.

And I know dozens of expats who have had children here and no issue. Lots of private hospitals around.

You seem to know lots of people who have no issue whatsover with the eighth amendment. Amazing that. There are no private maternity hospitals since Mount Carmel closed. You shouldn't have to go private to get good maternity care either. And anyway, when it comes to labour and delivery it doesn't matter whether you're a private patients, all patients are dealt with in the same rooms, by the same staff.

I know lots of expats and non natives who don't want to relocate here because of the health and education systems, both of which are far too influenced by policies and laws of a bygone age. I am seriously doubtful about having another child in Ireland if, even when I'm dead, the state has more say over my uterus than I do.

Metroboulot

What gets me though is the sheer hipocracy of the political classes, the chattering classes and the electorate here too.

Ireland *has* quite a lot of abortions. The reality is that our rather friendly neighbour is allowing us to continue the pretence that we've no abortion in Ireland by allowing Irish women to use UK services.

It's costing UK tax payers money, it's tying up services in Britian with crisis scenarios that generally do not happen in the uk because in such scenario is these things happen at a very very early stage.

So if anything, Ireland's policies are just inadvertently causing later stage abortions without proper follow up care.

Bunch of head-in-the-sand hypocrites running this place !

The NHS and UK government should be kicking up a huge fuss and sending us the bills and publishing the stats very clearly too!

There are also no stats available easily for the number of EU nationals who may go home in such circumstances for services. I know two off hand so, I doubt it's all that unusual.

lazygal

You will never hear anyone from the ProLife Campaign call for the repeal of the right to travel and information. They know full well we'd have to deal with 4,000 women and children here in Ireland if it was repealed.

Shrap

lazygal wrote: »

You will never hear anyone from the ProLife Campaign call for the repeal of the right to travel and information. They know full well we'd have to deal with 4,000 women and children EVERY YEAR here in Ireland if it was repealed.

FYP