Leinster schools league/cup 2015/2016 senior&junior

leinstertalk

RugbyRugby2016 wrote: »

Do you know if he is going into 6th year?

not sure, it's either 5th or 6th.

Stevie777

leinstertalk wrote: »

Fairly sure he hasn't started in Blackrock yet but will be.

Started in Blackrock today.

D14Rugby

leinstertalk wrote: »

Starting team plus some of the bench.

1. Niall McEniff(St. Marys)
2. Ben Howlett(Newbridge)
3. Sam Kenny(Wesley)
4. Ronan Watters(St. Marys)
5. Ryan Baird(St. Michaels)
6. Donnacha Mescal(Blackrock)
7. Rueben Pim(Kilkenny)
8. David Jeffares(Clongowes)
9. Elliott Ryan(Pres Bray)
10. Dominic Henry-Hayes(Terenure)
11. Eoin Barr(Gonzaga)
12. Ben O'Shea(Clongowes)
13. David Ryan(St. Michaels)
14. Jeff O'Loughlin(St. Michaels)
15. Conor Kelly(Roscrea)
Bench
Ronan Hannon(Clongowes)
Jonny Bell(Belvedere)
Ruadhan Byron(Belvedere)
Adam Corcoran(Castleknock)
Conrad Daly(Clongowes)
Adam Fleming(CUS)

notable players unavailable: Charlie Ryan(Blackrock), Liam Turner(Blackrock), Harry Byrne(St. Michaels), David Hawkshaw(Belvedere), Sam Dardis(Terenure), Scott Penny(St. Michaels)

surprised at the lack of Terenure players weren't they really good in juniors last year? Did loads of them just fall away this year?

RedemptionZ

leinstertalk wrote: »

Fairly sure he hasn't started in Blackrock yet but will be.

There's a surprise. That year won the Junior cup, they've got the biggest year of a rugby school by a fair margin but yet they need more players...

Guessing that 20 month rule was all hearsay then?

leinstertalk

D14Rugby wrote: »

surprised at the lack of Terenure players weren't they really good in juniors last year? Did loads of them just fall away this year?

There was at least two more Terenure lads in the squad, one being Adam La Grue and the other a hooker.

Some of those juniors could be still u17 next september and not involved in this squad.

leinstertalk

RedemptionZ wrote: »

There's a surprise. That year won the Junior cup, they've got the biggest year of a rugby school by a fair margin but yet they need more players...

Guessing that 20 month rule was all hearsay then?

Of course it was look at the players Roscrea brought in last summer who played during the cup.

Can't blame Mescal for leaving North Kildare RFC for Blackrock College, his teammate Cathal Duff did similarly for Clongowes.

rughug

leinstertalk wrote: »

Of course it was look at the players Roscrea brought in last summer who played during the cup.

Can't blame Mescal for leaving North Kildare RFC for Blackrock College, his teammate Cathal Duff did similarly for Clongowes.

Name them.

leinstertalk

rughug wrote: »

Name them.

Rory Gaffney

rughug

leinstertalk wrote: »

Rory Gaffney

Brother of Ciaran Gaffney also a CCR student.
If you have had a brother in the school , nothing stops you from joining .

leinstertalk

rughug wrote: »

Brother of Ciaran Gaffney also a CCR student.
If you have had a brother in the school , nothing stops you from joining .

No one said it did?

However the rule was supposed to prevent people joining in 6th year and playing SCT rugby.. it didn't stop Gaffney.

rughug

leinstertalk wrote: »

No one said it did?

However the rule was supposed to prevent people joining in 6th year and playing SCT rugby.. it didn't stop Gaffney.

The rule states. That if you have a brother in the school or had attended the school then you can join and play and the 20 months doesn't apply.
Incidentally Rory did not play in the semi final or final this year.
You are just splitting hairs here.

leinstertalk

rughug wrote: »

The rule states. That if you have a brother in the school or had attended the school then you can join and play and the 20 months doesn't apply.
Incidentally Rory did not play in the semi final or final this year.
You are just splitting hairs here.

Due to injury.
The rule is clearly not being enforced.

rughug

leinstertalk wrote: »

Due to injury.
The rule is clearly not being enforced.

Do we have to spell it out for you.
The rule states that " IF YOU HAVE A BROTHER IN THE SCHOOL OR A PAST PUPIL OF THE SCHOOL THEN YOU ARE EXEMPTED"
The rule was not broken in this situation , and clearly is being enforced .
With regard to master Mescal joining Blackrock, can't see how he can play SCT for 20 + months.

RugbyRugby2016

rughug wrote: »

Do we have to spell it out for you.
The rule states that " IF YOU HAVE A BROTHER IN THE SCHOOL OR A PAST PUPIL OF THE SCHOOL THEN YOU ARE EXEMPTED"
The rule was not broken in this situation , and clearly is being enforced .
With regard to master Mescal joining Blackrock, can't see how he can play SCT for 20 + months.

Chill FFS....

The Lost Sheep

Hamilton Boys School(NZ) on a tour of Ireland and UK over coming weeks. Games against Blackrock, RBAI and an Ulster schools xv. Just looking at NZ competition format. Don't think they run a schools cup like we do at all. Should we change that to help improve all round?

Or at least change things so focus on cup isn't as much. I know people say that its not needed but overall something should be done for the general good

Tarf1234

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Hamilton Boys School(NZ) on a tour of Ireland and UK over coming weeks. Games against Blackrock, RBAI and an Ulster schools xv. Just looking at NZ competition format. Don't think they run a schools cup like we do at all. Should we change that to help improve all round?

Or at least change things so focus on cup isn't as much. I know people say that its not needed but overall something should be done for the general good

We are constantly told that our schools cup is the envy of the world. It will never change as those in power have no interest in it changing.

I do agree a complete over haul to allow for schools and club rugby to co-exist at underage would be great but it is a redundant conversation. Even a rescheduling to allow kids play club rugby after xmas or something like that would be great.

The Lost Sheep

Tarf1234 wrote: »

We are constantly told that our schools cup is the envy of the world. It will never change as those in power have no interest in it changing.

I do agree a complete over haul to allow for schools and club rugby to co-exist at underage would be great but it is a redundant conversation. Even a rescheduling to allow kids play club rugby after xmas or something like that would be great.

Nucifora could help with changing things. Or at least start a proper discussion.
Yes when most who are in positions of influence and power predominantly come from the schools background in that they attended, played there not much will change but changes will occur in time IMO and it wont be that long either...

Tarf1234

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Nucifora could help with changing things. Or at least start a proper discussion.
Yes when most who are in positions of influence and power predominantly come from the schools background in that they attended, played there not much will change but changes will occur in time IMO and it wont be that long either...

I'd be interest to know what Nucifora's opinion is actually, I haven't seen him quoted on it anywhere that I can remember.

I think cutting kids out of clubs for the 6 years they will probably learn to love or hate a sport long term is madness. How the rule was ever there is beyond me. Developing ties to clubs during those years would be huge. Unfortunately at the moment that is not happening and is in my opinion the single biggest reason for the drop off rate.

I'd be surprised if it changes any time soon if I'm honest. I don't really see the appetite to change it by the big 6 and realistically they'll be the ones who decide.

Also, even if the rule regarding playing both schools and clubs is changed you can guarantee the big 6 will do their best to make it impossible for their SCT players to play clubs and will apply pressure to stop them playing clubs.

themont85

Er schools rugby is enormous in New Zealand and they have major competitions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_First_XV_Championship_(New_Zealand)

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2015/sep/11/all-blacks-how-new-zealand-sustains-its-rugby-dynasty

Next time I see (Graham) Henry he is wearing a kipper tie, looking out from the front row of an old photograph hanging in a corridor at Auckland grammar. It was his idea to come here. “The key to New Zealand rugby is the strength of the competitions our young people play,” he said. “Especially in the schools.” Altogether, there have been 1,146 All Blacks. Fifty-one of them studied at Auckland grammar, more than any place else in New Zealand.

In New Zealand, school first XV rugby is a serious business. Sky broadcast the matches live, two every weekend. Here at Auckland grammar they pull in crowds of around 7,000 for marquee games. The standard is excellent, the competition intense. It is becoming increasingly common for players to make the leap from school straight into the professional game.

Club rugby is struggling there as well.

themont85

Tarf1234 wrote: »

We are constantly told that our schools cup is the envy of the world. It will never change as those in power have no interest in it changing.

I do agree a complete over haul to allow for schools and club rugby to co-exist at underage would be great but it is a redundant conversation. Even a rescheduling to allow kids play club rugby after xmas or something like that would be great.

Schools rugby is big in New Zealand, Australia and South Africa, don't kid yourself.

Tarf1234

themont85 wrote: »

Schools rugby is big in New Zealand, Australia and South Africa, don't kid yourself.

I am not denying that in the slightest. The general tone of my comment was intended to point out that those who run it do not want us to think it could be improved or changed to create a better future for rugby in Ireland. Hence, constantly told, sorry if I wasn't clear (fairly regular issue with my posts!).

FrannoFan

Blaming schools for player drop off seems a simplistic argument. Some players are definitely overplayed and walk away and that is an issue but Schools introduce plenty of kids who wouldn't have played without it. They provide games for players of all abilities with C and D teams and a huge amount of people in schools do what they do for the benefit of all in the school.(2 cup sides in a school which might have 15 teams togging out.)

Toner discussed it today.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid3916090348001?bckey=AQ~~,AAABLI1nnlk~,0ZsOdcYbRQ9wbdVLOEenB931ZW0gjs2Z&bctid=4847012783001

The Lost Sheep

FrannoFan wrote: »

Blaming schools for player drop off seems a simplistic argument. Some players are definitely overplayed and walk away and that is an issue but Schools introduce plenty of kids who wouldn't have played without it. They provide games for players of all abilities with C and D teams and a huge amount of people in schools do what they do for the benefit of all in the school.(2 cup sides in a school which might have 15 teams togging out.)

Toner discussed it today.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid3916090348001?bckey=AQ~~,AAABLI1nnlk~,0ZsOdcYbRQ9wbdVLOEenB931ZW0gjs2Z&bctid=4847012783001

It isn't simplistic at all and they play a significant role in the drop off rate. That there isn't a direct team to follow on after leaving school. Like clubs have the 20s/juniors with a direct link. That a lot go 5/6 years of their teens without once playing for a club is huge part of drop off.

FrannoFan

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It isn't simplistic at all and they play a significant role in the drop off rate. That there isn't a direct team to follow on after leaving school. Like clubs have the 20s/juniors with a direct link. That a lot go 5/6 years of their teens without once playing for a club is huge part of drop off.

Lost sheep. Can always be relied upon to criticise the schools game. Even when an international gives credit to the school for encouraging him and giving him the confidence to push on. You need to look past cup sides and see how schools help introduce so many kids to the sport. So they don't play club for 6 years(which isn't accurate) most never had a club in the first place.

D14Rugby

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It isn't simplistic at all and they play a significant role in the drop off rate. That there isn't a direct team to follow on after leaving school. Like clubs have the 20s/juniors with a direct link. That a lot go 5/6 years of their teens without once playing for a club is huge part of drop off.

There isn't a direct team but there are indirect ones. Teams your family played/play for, teams you played for before school, your local team, teams your friends are joining, teams players from the two years ahead of you joined, many schools have a partner club (Terenure/Terenure, old wesley/Wesley. Belvo/Old Belvo, etc), many schools coaches do both club and school teams so their clubs. Also there are college/ University teams. You can't say that 'a lot' of players have no affiliation with a club because in many cases they actually do just not directly.

D14Rugby

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It isn't simplistic at all and they play a significant role in the drop off rate. That there isn't a direct team to follow on after leaving school. Like clubs have the 20s/juniors with a direct link. That a lot go 5/6 years of their teens without once playing for a club is huge part of drop off.

There isn't always a direct team but there are indirect ones. Teams your family played/play for, teams you played for before school, your local team, teams your friends are joining, teams players from the two years ahead of you joined, many schools have a partner club (Terenure/Terenure, old wesley/Wesley. Belvo/Old Belvo, etc), many schools coaches do both club and school teams so their clubs. Also there are college/ University teams. You can't say that 'a lot' of players have no affiliation with a club because in many cases they actually do just not directly.

RedemptionZ

Are there statistics for this drop off rate? I went to a top 6 rugby school and everyone from the SCT that year plays/played for either their university or a club. The clubs recruited a lot of guys. A lot already had family connections to clubs too.

Most people on the 2nds continued to play with a club/university afterwards too. Those that didn't normally had a reason (eg. came from GAA families and would never have left their GAA club).

3rds and below would have had a decent drop out rate but most of those people were playing purely because they went to a rugby school. If it was GAA they would've quite after minor. It happens and not much you can do.

I think this is hugely overstated and unless there is evidence to back it up I'd be inclined to discard it.

themont85

The clubs have a huge role in ruining it for themselves. Not all, but many. In the mid 2000s they destroyed the traditional links to schools by paying money out there for 18/19 year olds who were going nowhere. They soured a lot of players rugby experience by hording players and by making joe average players feel like they were pointless. When SCT players are going around thinking they are hot **** getting offered a grand to play rugby it just destroys the fabric of clubs.

That said, societal factors are huge and this isn't a rugby only issue.

Some posters keep wanting to bring this issue up blaming schools but schools rugby has always been the foundation of rugby in Ulster and Leinster and always huge. The clubs didn't have a problem getting those players in 15 years ago.

themont85

RedemptionZ wrote: »

Are there statistics for this drop off rate? I went to a top 6 rugby school and everyone from the SCT that year plays/played for either their university or a club. The clubs recruited a lot of guys. A lot already had family connections to clubs too.

Most people on the 2nds continued to play with a club/university afterwards too. Those that didn't normally had a reason (eg. came from GAA families and would never have left their GAA club).

3rds and below would have had a decent drop out rate but most of those people were playing purely because they went to a rugby school. If it was GAA they would've quite after minor. It happens and not much you can do.

I think this is hugely overstated and unless there is evidence to back it up I'd be inclined to discard it.

The actual major drop off is between 20s and junior rugby.

Don't believe a word of any stat which goes into teens dropping rugby as they go through schools. As we all should know, the IRFU's playing figures are artificially bolstered with schoolboy players for players who might pull on the jersey a couple of times. There is a drop off certainly as people have different interests but that has always been the same.

RugbyLover123

I think drop off rate depends on area/school. I went to a rugby school and I'd say you'd be lucky to have 5 lads from my year still playing rugby 3 years later.
The local club made no effort about attempting to recruit players, I assume they just presume the students will join, either that or they are just contempt with how they are.