Leinster schools league/cup 2015/2016 senior&junior

RedemptionZ

themont85 wrote: »

The actual major drop off is between 20s and junior rugby.

Don't believe a word of any stat which goes into teens dropping rugby as they go through schools. As we all should know, the IRFU's playing figures are artificially bolstered with schoolboy players for players who might pull on the jersey a couple of times. There is a drop off certainly as people have different interests but that has always been the same.

Is this a phenomenon exclusive to rugby? Because I know plenty who gave up GAA around the same age. I would've assumed life circumstances are the biggest factor there. When you finish college and start working you sport can become a chore. Seems a bit easy to put all the blame on schools.

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

I think drop off rate depends on area/school. I went to a rugby school and I'd say you'd be lucky to have 5 lads from my year still playing rugby 3 years later.
The local club made no effort about attempting to recruit players, I assume they just presume the students will join, either that or they are just contempt with how they are.

Yeah perhaps it's the area but surely that's the club's problem if they're not going to make an effort to attract schools players to them.

Old Belvo U20s is basically only made up of schools players. Obviously the location is a near a lot of rugby schools but they still made an effort to get players from my school and it worked.

The Lost Sheep

FrannoFan wrote: »

Lost sheep. Can always be relied upon to criticise the schools game. Even when an international gives credit to the school for encouraging him and giving him the confidence to push on. You need to look past cup sides and see how schools help introduce so many kids to the sport. So they don't play club for 6 years(which isn't accurate) most never had a club in the first place.

:rolleyes: I have done and will again do some coaching etc in a rugby school and my criticisms are very fair. These schools do a lot of good work but that doesn't mean there isn't huge flaws and issues that they are central to. They don't play clubs for 6 years doesn't help progression to further levels in the sport and that's wrong on every level. Some wont have had a club in the first place but the majority will. Many will have started playing while playing minis in clubs and then disappear for secondary school. More needs to be done with schools/clubs working together and then its better for the sport overall.

D14Rugby wrote: »

There isn't a direct team but there are indirect ones. Teams your family played/play for, teams you played for before school, your local team, teams your friends are joining, teams players from the two years ahead of you joined, many schools have a partner club (Terenure/Terenure, old wesley/Wesley. Belvo/Old Belvo, etc), many schools coaches do both club and school teams so their clubs. Also there are college/ University teams. You can't say that 'a lot' of players have no affiliation with a club because in many cases they actually do just not directly.

But most don't. They wont have played with a club for 4/5/6 years if at all so where is the connection even if they are in a school with an old boy club. What is there for them to play at 16/17/18 in a club with a club team. North Munster(Limerick/Clare) has 2 separate under 16/18 cups and 1 is to help integrate those from schools back into the clubs? A lot don't have any direct affiliation with a club in terms of playing. No real connection to coaches up the grades.

RedemptionZ wrote: »

Are there statistics for this drop off rate? I went to a top 6 rugby school and everyone from the SCT that year plays/played for either their university or a club. The clubs recruited a lot of guys. A lot already had family connections to clubs too.
Most people on the 2nds continued to play with a club/university afterwards too. Those that didn't normally had a reason (eg. came from GAA families and would never have left their GAA club).
3rds and below would have had a decent drop out rate but most of those people were playing purely because they went to a rugby school. If it was GAA they would've quit after minor. It happens and not much you can do.
I think this is hugely overstated and unless there is evidence to back it up I'd be inclined to discard it.

I don't think it is highly overstated at all.
http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/31785.php#.VxPOVU3JAdU
The second pressure point identified is the move from secondary level where 18% of rugby players drop out of the game within 3 to 4 years.

themont85 wrote: »

The clubs have a huge role in ruining it for themselves. Not all, but many. In the mid 2000s they destroyed the traditional links to schools by paying money out there for 18/19 year olds who were going nowhere. They soured a lot of players rugby experience by hording players and by making joe average players feel like they were pointless. When SCT players are going around thinking they are hot **** getting offered a grand to play rugby it just destroys the fabric of clubs.

That said, societal factors are huge and this isn't a rugby only issue.

Some posters keep wanting to bring this issue up blaming schools but schools rugby has always been the foundation of rugby in Ulster and Leinster and always huge. The clubs didn't have a problem getting those players in 15 years ago.

Schools isn't the foundation of rugby in Ulster/Leinster. That's not true at all. Its a significant actor in development but isn't the foundation of the sport.
The clubs have a role to play, not saying they don't and there needs to be country wide facility for those who've been playing in a rugby school from September to March to play with clubs in April etc.

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

I think drop off rate depends on area/school. I went to a rugby school and I'd say you'd be lucky to have 5 lads from my year still playing rugby 3 years later.
The local club made no effort about attempting to recruit players, I assume they just presume the students will join, either that or they are just contempt with how they are.

It will but when players have no connection to a club. Have never played in Donnybrook bar schools games. That will never help the progression of players into adult rugby. Clubs don't do enough but the Leinster branch should be running competitions at under 17/18/19 level at the end of the season for all clubs given all schools players the chance to play with clubs and keep connections with a club/start a connection. There could be some sort of limit on number of JCT/SCT players per team but other than that you would get some playing clubs rugby/connecting with a club at a time they otherwise wouldn't.

RedemptionZ wrote: »

Is this a phenomenon exclusive to rugby? Because I know plenty who gave up GAA around the same age. I would've assumed life circumstances are the biggest factor there. When you finish college and start working you sport can become a chore. Seems a bit easy to put all the blame on schools.

Yeah perhaps it's the area but surely that's the club's problem if they're not going to make an effort to attract schools players to them.

Old Belvo U20s is basically only made up of schools players. Obviously the location is a near a lot of rugby schools but they still made an effort to get players from my school and it worked.

Im not denying life circumstances are not a factor but rugby doesn't help itself with the way it does things to help keep numbers in the sport into the 20s. Its not just the clubs problem. Schools still have a significant role to play. They helped develop these players through their teens but now they cant play for the school and drop out easily after 2/3 months of 20s its not their problem? More needs to be done to help the numbers playing the game stay as high as possible.

themont85

You are wrong, schools rugby is the foundation in Leinster and Ulster. That is where the majority have learned the sport in the provinces. Anyone who knows the history of the sport knows that.

18% is a surprisingly low figure for dropout from secondary school after 3 to 4 years and if that's true is a decent figure.

Listen I know you're a club guy but your little hobby horse in constantly bringing this up is boring. I have coached mini rugby, teen rugby in clubs and played in schools. The schools are doing what they have always done. If anyone is responsible it is the clubs for eroding the values of the club game in the 2000s which left a generation of players with a bad taste in their mouth about club rugby.

The real reason though; in two clubs I associated with we had 2 under 20 teams but struggled to field 4 adult teams. Why? The lads drop off from 20s for a variety of reasons, some of which are unique to societies shift in the last 15 years. Loyalty has nothing to do with it, one of those clubs is probably the most famous "old boys" club out there, the lads just lose interest and life gets in the way.

The schools game is not changing and nor should it.

Stevie777

rughug wrote: »

The rule states. That if you have a brother in the school or had attended the school then you can join and play and the 20 months doesn't apply.
Incidentally Rory did not play in the semi final or final this year.
You are just splitting hairs here.

Where can the wording of the "20 month" rule be found? I tried online, but the version of the Gamesmaster's Handbook on the Leinster website is from 2012.

The Lost Sheep

themont85 wrote: »

You are wrong, schools rugby is the foundation in Leinster and Ulster. That is where the majority have learned the sport in the provinces. Anyone who knows the history of the sport knows that.

18% is a surprisingly low figure for dropout from secondary school after 3 to 4 years and if that's true is a decent figure.

Listen I know you're a club guy but your little hobby horse in constantly bringing this up is boring. I have coached mini rugby, teen rugby in clubs and played in schools. The schools are doing what they have always done. If anyone is responsible it is the clubs for eroding the values of the club game in the 2000s which left a generation of players with a bad taste in their mouth about club rugby.

The real reason though; in two clubs I associated with we had 2 under 20 teams but struggled to field 4 adult teams. Why? The lads drop off from 20s for a variety of reasons, some of which are unique to societies shift in the last 15 years. Loyalty has nothing to do with it, one of those clubs is probably the most famous "old boys" club out there, the lads just lose interest and life gets in the way.

The schools game is not changing and nor should it.

Yes the schools game should change. The way its set up needs to change to allow better progression with the sport into the adult game. The numbers dropping out from age grade is 1 in 5 at the minimum and that is aided by the way that age grade schools is set up.
I have never said clubs are not at fault for some of whats happened to them. They are. As are the IRFU but the way the schools have to change. Even an old boys club will not give "loyalty" if players will not have had any involvement in the club through their teens.

Tarf1234

Just half catching up on this here and not going to read back over it all so I'm sorry if I've missed something or am repeat something.

Everyone has somewhat of a responsibility in drop off after schools which is significant. Allowing schools players to play clubs and develop or maintain ties with the clubs is an obvious way to help this. As has been previously said schools have zero interest in this.

it is ridiculous to point all of the blame at clubs or schools singularly. At least clubs are trying to increase the number of adults playing and remaining in the game. Schools cannot say that in the slightest.

A few suggestions have already been made in terms of changing the scheduling or format of schools rugby. This is completely out of the hands of the clubs.

If clubs were allowed take the best players out of schools rugby how good would it be?

The Lost Sheep

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Just half catching up on this here and not going to read back over it all so I'm sorry if I've missed something or am repeat something.

Everyone has somewhat of a responsibility in drop off after schools which is significant. Allowing schools players to play clubs and develop or maintain ties with the clubs is an obvious way to help this. As has been previously said schools have zero interest in this.

it is ridiculous to point all of the blame at clubs or schools singularly. At least clubs are trying to increase the number of adults playing and remaining in the game. Schools cannot say that in the slightest.

A few suggestions have already been made in terms of changing the scheduling or format of schools rugby. This is completely out of the hands of the clubs.

If clubs were allowed take the best players out of schools rugby how good would it be?

We cant blame clubs or schools singularly but way schools are set up doesn't help retention rates into the adult game.

A Blackrock club XV playing a NZ touring side tonight. Mix of club u20 players as well as players from local schools. More is needed like that but it really should be an organised club competition to help retention rates. And gets clubs fielding more. Could be ran off over 2/3 weeks in blitz style if necessary

RobbieRuns

How did Blackrock get on v the Kiwi team?

OceanSixteen

Irish Independent Team of the Tournament being announced next week, any predictions on the what the team will look like?

The Lost Sheep

Interesting to see Calvin Nash, Crescent Comp and then Ireland 19s on bench for Young Munster 2nds in Munster Junior Cup final today.
Few irish 20s/academy players like John Poland, Rory Burke involved for Con

D14Rugby

Don't know if there's a new thread that this would be better in but st. Fintan's hs have moved up to section B for next year for the first time in their history

Thats the division name fintan's put on their facebook anyway not 100% sure if thats its actual name as the leinster site has it down as something different but its the league with Andrew's, Roscrea, Wesley, etc