Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

marmurr1916

Exactly.

It's not very hard to write your Eircode on a piece of paper and tape it to your fridge or to the mantlepiece or wherever it is that people write down and store information that they refer to frequently.

And it's bloody insulting to older people in Ireland to assume that they're less capable of older people in the UK or anywhere else of remembering a postcode of seven characters or less capable of writing it down and keeping it handy for reference.

marmurr1916

Mountainsandh wrote: »

marmurr I have explained in my posts that I am computer literate, have no problem using the internet, I know my Eircode by heart, and have no difficulty typing it in.

My argument is not about myself having difficulty typing my Eircode, but the people around me.

So what? I was describing MY preferences, hence 'each to his own'. Am I compelled to engage with your posts in some particular way? I'll respond as I see fit, not as you think I should.

ukoda

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Exactly.

It's not very hard to write your Eircode on a piece of paper and tape it to your fridge or to the mantlepiece or wherever it is that people write down and store information that they refer to frequently.

And it's bloody insulting to older people in Ireland to assume that they're less capable of older people in the UK or anywhere else of remembering a postcode of seven characters or less capable of writing it down and keeping it handy for reference.

Do they think that having a different postcode design is suddenly going to make non tech savvy elderly people jump up out of their chairs shouting "I'm going to try that amazon thing! Now that my postcode is a certain design!"

It's a ridiculous argument.

Mountainsandh

ukoda wrote: »

I think you're underestimating the older generation, they are more than capable of remembering or storing their eircode somewhere prominently and they can use it ambulance calls, dealing on the phone with government departments, giving it to people for directions and generally making use of it when required in their current lives.

If they don't like tech or don't used tech, then no postcode design is going to be of use to them online.

In the scenario of "typing it into to an online form" I can tell you right now, if they are capable of getting on to the lidl site or any other website it is very disrespectful of you to claim they would then be incapable of typing their eircode Into a box if such a service was available.

If they are elderly people who are tech savvy, they can use eircode online.

If they are not tech savvy then they have no need to use eircode online and therefore can use it in their phone interactions or face to face.

I guess the idea of implementation though, is that Eircode would be used in every day life, rather than be entered once a year like an insurance company number.
Yes, my older relatives and colleagues who are very much inconvenienced with random Eircodes so far could locate it and type it in the odd time. It's not really what implementation is about though, isn't it ?

It's not disrespectful, it's just looking around me, at people who are not inclined to even try to remember Eircode, because it is random. And again it's not me guessing, it's just as part of discussions, they tell me how nonsensical and useless they think it is (in not so correct language).

If it had been county initials, 2 digits, local letters, 2 digits for example, I bet my mil and these colleagues would all already be using it, and there wouldn't be an issue.

Wouldn't that have been brilliant ?
I really do believe that had the sequence been meaningful to these people, regardless of how tech savvy they are, in their every day life, online or not, they would have adopted it and made use of it. They're not people who are opposed to change, or unable for it, it's just that change needs to be useful and intuitive.

Useful and intuitive are not adjectives that can qualify Eircodes right now.

ukoda

Mountainsandh wrote: »

, I bet my mil and these colleagues would all already be using it, and there wouldn't be an issue.

Wouldn't that have been brilliant ?
I really do believe that had the sequence been meaningful to these people, regardless of how tech savvy they are, in their every day life, online or not, they would have adopted it and made use of it. They're not people who are opposed to change, or unable for it, it's just that change needs to be useful and intuitive.

Useful and intuitive are not adjective that can qualify Eircodes right now.

Where would they be using it exactly? People aren't using it because there are very little places to use it yet.

You said it yourself. Change needs to be useful. And that's why they aren't embracing it yet, they see nowhere to use it yet.

This idea that it would somehow be everywhere by now if it was sequential or hierarchical is rubbish.

It's not taken off yet because it hasn't been implemented by a huge amount of places. It's that simple.

Are you telling me if a driver calls and asks them for their eircode for directions, they will say "sorry, I can't use that as its not intuitive, so I'll just give you turn by turn directions instead, did you pass the red hay barn....you've gone too far, turn around"

Mountainsandh

No, they will say : "God, errr... jeee... I know I got one but I don't have a clue what it is, turn left at the pub and it's the second house on your right."

Had it been intuitive, they would already remember it.

The little thing to put on your fridge, by the way, has long gone into the recycling in these households. Sure, weren't they told in the same letter they didn't really need it ?

Like you said yourself, people would volunteer their code for various services if it was easier to remember, like deliveries. Change and implementation could have happened the other way, led by consumer demand.

Sure, didn't I go and wave my Eircode around at all and sundry, only to be looked at like an eejit ? But that's because I didn't have a problem memorizing it. (my job involves memorizing stuff, so it's part of what I do)

ukoda

Mountainsandh wrote: »

No, they will say : "God, errr... jeee... I know I got one but I don't have a clue what it is, turn left at the pub and it's the second house on your right."

The bit that you're missing is that, if they are asked once it twice for it, next time they'll be ready and look it up, because now it's becoming routine

Not everything is driven by consumer demand first, sometimes the product makes the customer realise they want to start using it.

Were there people crying out looking for a bigger phone with a browser and apps before the iPhone was invented? No. Everyone wanted a smaller and smaller phone.

Mountainsandh

But these people adopted the change because it was intuitive. Plus it's voluntary, optional.

Marmurr reply away to yourself then.

TheChizler

Mountainsandh wrote: »

But these people adopted the change because it was intuitive.

Marmurr reply away to yourself then.

Full Irish addresses are seldom intuitive, I don't know how you'd make a postcode that was intuitive by itself without having other documentation to explain it and help interpret it. But I digress.

As others say, if they use it a couple of times they'll remember it. No biggie, post is now arriving with codes on it so people will quite possibly have a letter around to reference if they forget.

ukoda

Mountainsandh wrote: »

But these people adopted the change because it was intuitive. Plus it's voluntary, optional.

Marmurr reply away to yourself then.

It's seven characters they can either remember or write down somewhere. Don't insult them by making a widespread claim they are incapable of doing that.

My grandmother is 72, she uses Internet banking with all its random codes and numbers and other so called "non intuitive" things, she knows all her kids PPS numbers even tho they don't reference the county they were born in or have any sort of meaning to her in any other way. She's the director of a company and knows the registration number and VAT code off by heart, even tho there's no meaning in those and they don't reference her county or company name.

oscarBravo

I'm still genuinely confused by the idea that older people can't remember or type a 7-character code; still more by the idea that they would magically be able to remember and type it if it was hierarchical.

Seriously: do none of the older people you know ever remember or use any mobile phone numbers?

Mountainsandh

Great, brilliant for the people you guys know.

Not the case for the people I know. Hell, even the people my age don't know. Even Mr M doesn't know, although I'm after reminding him more time than I can remember.

Not a hierarchical code I'm on about.

One that would be meaningful, and possibly even use reference prefixes that are already known, like has been suggested, possibly county initials like car number plates.

It is disingenuous to claim that the 7 random letters + numbers is as easy to remember as a sequence that would have meaning and use pre-known codes.

I said I'd leave the discussion again and should have done so a few posts ago.

Profit motive it seems is the wild card to implementation of whatever is needed for companies to thrive, and supersedes the needs, preference, or convenience of society in general. This is something that the little sample of demographics in the Boards "Infrastructure" forum is comfortable with, and I can't reconcile my views with this, so I'll leave you guys to rub your hands and pat your respective backs. Enjoy.

my3cents

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Great, brilliant for the people you guys know.

Not the case for the people I know. Hell, even the people my age don't know. Even Mr M doesn't know, although I'm after reminding him more time than I can remember.

Not a hierarchical code I'm on about.

One that would be meaningful, and possibly even use reference prefixes that are already known, like has been suggested, possibly county initials like car number plates.

It is disingenuous to claim that the 7 random letters + numbers is as easy to remember as a sequence that would have meaning and use pre-known codes.

I said I'd leave the discussion again and should have done so a few posts ago.

Profit motive it seems is the wild card to implementation of whatever is needed for companies to thrive, and supersedes the needs, preference, or convenience of society in general. This is something that the little sample of demographics in the Boards "Infrastructure" forum is comfortable with, and I can't reconcile my views with this, so I'll leave you guys to rub your hands and pat your respective backs. Enjoy.

But its not 7 random letters + numbers is it?

The first three the routing code will be shared with all your neighbours so you only have 4 random letters + numbers to remember.

ukoda

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Great, brilliant for the people you guys know.

Not the case for the people I know. Hell, even the people my age don't know. Even Mr M doesn't know, although I'm after reminding him more time than I can remember.

Not a hierarchical code I'm on about.

One that would be meaningful, and possibly even use reference prefixes that are already known, like has been suggested, possibly county initials like car number plates.

It is disingenuous to claim that the 7 random letters + numbers is as easy to remember as a sequence that would have meaning and use pre-known codes.

I said I'd leave the discussion again and should have done so a few posts ago.

Profit motive it seems is the wild card to implementation of whatever is needed for companies to thrive, and supersedes the needs, preference, or convenience of society in general. This is something that the little sample of demographics in the Boards "Infrastructure" forum is comfortable with, and I can't reconcile my views with this, so I'll leave you guys to rub your hands and pat your respective backs. Enjoy.

What a childish post. "People don't agree with me so I'm going to call them names and run off"

Mountainsandh

ukoda wrote: »

What a childish post. "People don't agree with me so I'm going to call them names and run off"

If you feel you have been called names feel free to report the post, I don't see names in my post, just a strong opinion, and explanation as to why I'm leaving discussion rather than run in circles.

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

What a childish post. "People don't agree with me so I'm going to call them names and run off"

Mod: Do not attack the poster.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

Mod: Do not attack the poster.

To be fair, I said the *post* was childish not the poster, but point taken, no offence meant

ozmo

Went to edit my Paypal address today (to do a digital download purchase - seller didnt need know my physical address so I felt no reason to give it to them) but paypal insisted on an Eircode - wouldnt let me save edits to the address without one!
Just thought it worth posting the first time Ive come across a company, paypal, that have made Eircode Mandatory.

marmurr1916

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I guess the idea of implementation though, is that Eircode would be used in every day life, rather than be entered once a year like an insurance company number.
Yes, my older relatives and colleagues who are very much inconvenienced with random Eircodes so far could locate it and type it in the odd time. It's not really what implementation is about though, isn't it ?

It's not disrespectful, it's just looking around me, at people who are not inclined to even try to remember Eircode, because it is random. And again it's not me guessing, it's just as part of discussions, they tell me how nonsensical and useless they think it is (in not so correct language).

If it had been county initials, 2 digits, local letters, 2 digits for example, I bet my mil and these colleagues would all already be using it, and there wouldn't be an issue.

Wouldn't that have been brilliant ?
I really do believe that had the sequence been meaningful to these people, regardless of how tech savvy they are, in their every day life, online or not, they would have adopted it and made use of it. They're not people who are opposed to change, or unable for it, it's just that change needs to be useful and intuitive.

Useful and intuitive are not adjectives that can qualify Eircodes right now.

Do you think that UK postcodes appear meaningful to people in the UK? They don't in general - most people see them as a random collection of letters and numbers which are no harder or easier to remember than Eircodes.

I was in the bank earlier this morning and the customer ahead of me was being asked for his surname and his previous postcode.

He couldn't remember the old postcode (which was for his previous address) so it's evident that not everyone can remember their postcodes because they don't regard them as meaningful sequences.

The initial letters of my UK postcode are DL, for Darlington, even though the nearest large town to me is Durham and I live in Co. Durham.

DL isn't meaningful in the sense that the letters are associated with where I live or near to where I live, the numbered postcode district (e.g. DL11) isn't particularly meaningful, nor are the last three characters of my postcode.

Look at landline phone numbers - a sequence of characters that most older people would be familiar with.

When area codes were introduced did 021, 091, 061 etc have any meaningful connection with Cork, Galway and Limerick respectively?

Do the 6 or 7 digit phone numbers following area codes have some sort of meaningful connection with the area they're in that is discernible to the average user?

I don't think so, yet people are able to remember their phone numbers and know their area codes.

Why? Because they use them frequently.

The more you use your Eircode, the more likely you are to remember it.

Mail with Eircodes will be sent regularly to most households in the state soon.

How do I know this? Because Electric Ireland has been sending bills with Eircodes on them since the beginning of this month:

Mr Griffin also told the committee that Electric Ireland would start issuing bills with Eircodes from next Monday.

That report was published on Thursday 28th January, so 'next Monday' refers to Monday 2nd February.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/pac-told-eircode-usage-will-increase-dramatically-1.2513726

Electric Ireland dominates the residential electricity market in Ireland.

In 2014 it had a 61.66% share of the the domestic electricity market, supplying electricity to 1,248,194 domestic customers (I bet that that Electric Ireland's market share among older people is higher than 61.66%).

http://www.cer.ie/docs/001035/CER15112%20The%20Electricity%20and%20Gas%20Retail%20Market%20Report%202014.pdf - see page 12.

So the majority of people will end up getting regular mail showing their Eircodes, making it easier for them to remember their Eircodes and easier to find out what it is if they forget it - instead of having to look it up online, just check your Electric Ireland bill.

plodder

You're actually raising a different issue there - the fact that postal boundaries don't correspond with administrative ones and your postcode refers to Darlington while you live in Durham. But, it seems wrong to argue that there is no meaning in DL = Darlington (or BT = Belfast, or IV = Inverness) just because the closest city to you is a different one.



I assume that you don't live in DL 11 though because this information is free in the UK, I can see exactly where DL11 is, and it's the other side of Darlington from Durham.

http://www.postcodearea.co.uk/postaltowns/darlington/dl11/

It even has its own wikipedia page

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DL_postcode_area

BailMeOut

apologies if already mentioned but https://www.motortax.ie let you lookup or correct your address by adding your Eircode and clicking 'Search'. First time I have seen something like this.

chewed

One thing I'm seeing more regularly is the old and new postcodes being repeated on addresses in Dublin.
For example...

ABC Company
1 Blanchardstown Rd.
Dublin 15
D15 1234
Ireland

Surely there's no need for the "15" after "Dublin" if the Eircode is displaying this number?

moyners

chewed wrote: »

One thing I'm seeing more regularly is the old and new postcodes being repeated on addresses in Dublin.
For example...

ABC Company
1 Blanchardstown Rd.
Dublin 15
D15 1234
Ireland

Surely there's no need for the "15" after "Dublin" if the Eircode is displaying this number?

An Post are insisting you include both. I've seen anecdotal stuff on here and twitter of An Post putting "incorrect address" stickers where the old Dublin XX has been left off and just the eircode on its own.

Stupidity

chewed

moyners wrote: »

An Post are insisting you include both. I've seen anecdotal stuff on here and twitter of An Post putting "incorrect address" stickers where the old Dublin XX has been left off and just the eircode on its own.

Stupidity

Why are they insisting we use both? So they want us to use the old system and new system? It's just repeating the same information...no?

my3cents

The point is your old address doesn't change with the introduction of Eircode. Its a small petty point but you know what An Post can be like.

BoatMad

I filled in 5 online forms today for various things , all either displayed my Eircode, or asked me for it , ( including my heating oil delivery) Looks like its being implemented all over the place

BailMeOut

BoatMad wrote: »

I filled in 5 online forms today for various things , all either displayed my Eircode, or asked me for it , ( including my heating oil delivery) Looks like its being implemented all over the place

home heating delivery adopting this is such a no brainier. The amount of time wasted giving turn buy turn directions every time you need oil is ridiculous. Never mind the fact that the driver is on the phone driving an oil truck at same time.

marmurr1916

plodder wrote: »

You're actually raising a different issue there - the fact that postal boundaries don't correspond with administrative ones and your postcode refers to Darlington while you live in Durham. But, it seems wrong to argue that there is no meaning in DL = Darlington (or BT = Belfast, or IV = Inverness) just because the closest city to you is a different one.



I assume that you don't live in DL 11 though because this information is free in the UK, I can see exactly where DL11 is, and it's the other side of Darlington from Durham.

http://www.postcodearea.co.uk/postaltowns/darlington/dl11/

It even has its own wikipedia page

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DL_postcode_area

I'm not raising a different issue. It's got nothing to do with administrative boundaries. Darlington is traditionally in Co. Durham anyway - it's a Co. Durham town with its own borough council. It's like when towns in Ireland used to have either urban district councils or borough councils (later largely renamed as Town Councils) but were still regarded as towns in X county.

For example, the towns of Mitchelstown, Mallow, Fermoy, Midleton, Youghal, Cobh, Bandon, Bantry, Clonakilty and Skibbereen are all in County Cork but used to have their own Urban District Councils, later renamed to Town Councils. As far as local people were concerned, these towns were in County Cork regardless of the local authority arrangements.

As far as local people in this part of the world are concerned, Darlington is just another town in Co. Durham, regardless of the local authority arrangements.

The other poster said that it would be better if Eircodes included reference to county names and local areas because then they would have meaningful links with local areas and be easier to remember rather than a string of random characters.

I've pointed out that UK postcodes have reference to town names etc but that these aren't necessarily meaningful references to local areas (eg. DL doesn't just cover the town of Darlington - it covers a much wider area), so they're not necessarily easier to remember and, as I've already said, for most people UK postcodes may as well be a string of random characters.

BT is a particularly poor example - BT stands for Belfast. I'm not sure what meaningful local connection someone in Co. Fermanagh is supposed to derive from that.

plodder wrote: »

I assume that you don't live in DL 11 though because this information is free in the UK, I can see exactly where DL11 is, and it's the other side of Darlington from Durham.

http://www.postcodearea.co.uk/postaltowns/darlington/dl11/

Yes, I'm obviously not going to give out even more information about my location on boards.ie so I used DL11 as an example.

And you can see the information because it's online - which kind of negates pretty much everything Mountainsandh has been how Eircodes are useless because they're online...

marmurr1916

chewed wrote: »

One thing I'm seeing more regularly is the old and new postcodes being repeated on addresses in Dublin.
For example...

ABC Company
1 Blanchardstown Rd.
Dublin 15
D15 1234
Ireland

Surely there's no need for the "15" after "Dublin" if the Eircode is displaying this number?

There is a need for the 15 after Dublin. There is no post-town of Dublin.

These are the post-towns used by An Post:

Dublin 1
Dublin 2
Dublin 3
Dublin 4
Dublin 5
Dublin 6
Dublin 6W
Dublin 7
Dublin 8
Dublin 9
Dublin 10
Dublin 11
Dublin 12
Dublin 13
Dublin 14
Dublin 15
Dublin 16
Dublin 17
Dublin 18
Dublin 20
Dublin 22
Dublin 24

Keep using them, along with the Eircode.

astrofool

marmurr1916 wrote: »

I'm not raising a different issue. The other poster said that it would be better if Eircodes included reference to county names and local areas because then they would have meaningful links with local areas and be easier to remember rather than a string of random characters. I've pointed out that UK postcodes have reference to town names etc but that these aren't necessarily meaningful, so not necessarily easier to remember and, as I've already said, for most people UK postcodes may as well be a string of random characters. BT is a particularly poor example - BT stands for Belfast. I'm not sure what meaningful local connection someone in Co. Fermanagh is supposed to derive from that.

My cousins live in the TD area, don't have a clue what it means, has no meaning whatsoever to me, yet it's easy for me to remember and great for navigating via GPS when I visit, can't wait to start doing the same over here with GPS devices.