County Standing By Population

tritium

TrueGael wrote: »

tritium


It is interesting you reference Kerry and Leitrim

Kerry received 42k and Leitrim 39k which equates to €19 and €56.90 respectively per capita

And I have absolutely no problem with the difference there as developing counties will only close the gap to the stronger with a greater rate of funding than the strongest.

Considering Dublin's extortionate figure of €274,70 per player how does anyone expect Dublin to be challenged in the next 20-30 years and beyond?

Except (i) theres already significant questions about the accuracy and interpretation of the figures you've quoted (ii) up till now youve only called for a level playing field not greater funding to weaker counties and (iii) kerrys sustained success over several decades would seem to indicate that the gap isnt so easy to close (funnily enough no one looks to dismantle kerry though)

TrueGael

tritium wrote: »

Except (i) theres already significant questions about the accuracy and interpretation of the figures you've quoted (ii) up till now youve only called for a level playing field not greater funding to weaker counties and (iii) kerrys sustained success over several decades would seem to indicate that the gap isnt so easy to close (funnily enough no one looks to dismantle kerry though)

(I) I didn't come up with those figures but to suggest Dublin aren't getting an extortionate amount given they sponsorship they can attract due to sheer size is misguided

(II) I didn't special mention that because I thought it was pretty obvious didn't have to be specified explicitly

(III) Well seeing as Kerry don't have a massive population and receive low funding per capita why exactly would people want to dismantle them exactly? Kerry have won 1 AI in 7 years (and not going to either in the next 5 years either) have won 3 Munster U21s in the 21st century while Dublin have essentially killed off a traditionally far stronger Football Province (with 8/9 Football first counties as opposed to Kerry and Cork who are 50/50 Football /Hurling )

From a selfish point of view I don't blame Dublin for Kerry's predicament in this decade, I'd readily acknowledge we are extremely lucky to won the one we did. I'd be far more annoyed if I was a Mayo fan as they have been much better than Kerry over the last 6 years and would have won 2/3 AI's if there wasn't such an Monster to try and somehow overcome

tritium

TrueGael wrote: »

(I) I didn't come up with those figures but to suggest Dublin aren't getting an extortionate amount given they sponsorship they can attract due to sheer size is misguided

(II) I didn't special mention that because I thought it was pretty obvious didn't have to be specified explicitly

(III) Well seeing as Kerry don't have a massive population and receive low funding per capita why exactly would people want to dismantle them exactly? Kerry have won 1 AI in 7 years (and not going to either in the next 5 years either) have won 3 Munster U21s in the 21st century while Dublin have essentially killed off a traditionally far stronger Football Province (with 8/9 Football first counties as opposed to Kerry and Cork who are 50/50 Football /Hurling )

From a selfish point of view I don't blame Dublin for Kerry's predicament in this decade, I'd readily acknowledge we are extremely lucky to won the one we did. I'd be far more annoyed if I was a Mayo fan as they have been much better than Kerry over the last 6 years and would have won 2/3 AI's if there wasn't such an Monster to try and somehow overcome

Since you bring sponsorship into it in your first point, i posted the following earlier

http://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/gaa-sponsorship-deals-highlight-richman-poorman-divide-29649138.html

Heres another one covering kerrys ability to generate third party funding

http://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/gaa-sponsorship-deals-highlight-richman-poorman-divide-29649138.html

The reality is kerry as a brand are very marketable. If Dublin werent there then Kerry would be very healthy financially compared ro their peers- i suspect that would sit just fine with some posters here however for some reason.

AIG are sponsoring a full dublin package over 5 years for their money. What are the equivalent sponsorship deals for other big gaa counties- how long and how many sports are being covered?

And then we get to kerrys success in your aecond point. Your 1 AI in 7 years seems to forget all the other 36, many of which are in living memory. Either kerrys wait for that 1 is dwarfed by dublins wait for this crop of players or kerrys far greater AI success overall is a bigger issue than dublins success' -you cant really have your cake and eat it here. So again, what do you propose to do to dismantle Kerry, and once thats complete we can worry about smaller problems like Dublin?

TrueGael

I didn't where to start so I decided to reply to your points bit by bit.


third party funding - what do you mean exactly? if you mean fundraise in the States then yes like most other counties have done (particularly those hard hit with emigration over the years) While we have received Capital Grants from the GAA to assist the building of the COE (again like a lot of counties - we are well behind in building this) most of the money had to be fundraised ourselves we dont have the luxury of having multiple universitiers with state of the art facilites and weremn't given a €12m complex like the one in Abbotstown so we had no option but to fundraise the vast majority of the €5.8m



Are you having a laugh comparing Kerry & Dublin in terms of marketability. for starters Kerry market is less than 10 times the size in population and a financially much poorer market for starters. Secondly, the sponsors involved are Kerry companies such as Kerry Group, Castleisland Co-op, The Kerryman newspaper Keanes Supervalu and the Malton hotel. There are many more counties after Dublin you would define as more marketable before you would come to the Kingdom

While AIG's involvement is well publicised there are many other companies involved many with an international flavour such as , Aer Lingus, Ballygowan, Bavaria, Benetti Menswear, Energise Sport, O’Neills, ROS Nutrition, , The Gibson Hotel, and Toyota.

Now let me be very clear, I have no problem with all these bifg sponsors, Dublin shouldn't be criticised or discouraged one iota for getting the best possible deals or to even share this money with the rest. My point is they should use this money to fund their own Games Dev Funding as no one else could possibly attract this laundry list of big companies. Don't worry there will still be plenty for the IC Teams!!!



We won those AI's over a long 125+ years , now with our moderate population that means success can't but be cyclical. Nobody ever feared Kerry like this Dublin team because it looks to the outsider that they are only getting stronger and there isn't an end in sight. Cian O'Callaghan was the best U21 in Ireland this yr by a mile and couldn't get a look in same story with Costello (until the final obviously) and others like Basquel, McHugh etc
I'm still delighted that freak semi happened in 2014 with Donegal otherwise it'd be the drive for 5 next year and we'd have no title in this decade at all!

K-9

BonnieSituation wrote: »

But surely a full-timne commercial manager is a good thing to attract further outside funding? No?

Do people just want us to be crap again? Is that what it really boils down to.

From 1983 to 1995 and from 1996 to 2011 no one cared what we got up to.

The proposal to split Dublin up was pre 2011.

Godge

TrueGael wrote: »

Considering Dublin's extortionate figure of €274,70 per player how does anyone expect Dublin to be challenged in the next 20-30 years and beyond?

Considering the figure quoted in your post has been completely discredited already, how do you justify the extrapolation that Dublin will dominate for 20-30 years?

Godge

TrueGael wrote: »

We won those AI's over a long 125+ years , now with our moderate population that means success can't but be cyclical. Nobody ever feared Kerry like this Dublin team because it looks to the outsider that they are only getting stronger and there isn't an end in sight. Cian O'Callaghan was the best U21 in Ireland this yr by a mile and couldn't get a look in same story with Costello (until the final obviously) and others like Basquel, McHugh etc
I'm still delighted that freak semi happened in 2014 with Donegal otherwise it'd be the drive for 5 next year and we'd have no title in this decade at all!

Kerry won 10 All-Irelands in 18 years from 1969 to 1986. I am fairly sure of those because I lived through with the glory days of 1974, 1976, 1977 and 1983 only providing a brief respite. The Kerry team of 1978-1981 was feared by everyone, they put nine goals on Clare in one match if I recall correctly. Imagine the outcry if Dublin put nine goals in on Kildare?

In that era the Kerry fans used to claim that the second best team in Ireland was the b-team in Kerry training.

LeinsterDub

TrueGael wrote: »

Nobody ever feared Kerry like this Dublin team because it looks to the outsider that they are only getting stronger

I'm pretty sure during your four in a row and then subsequent 3 in a row everyone fancied a crack at Kerry and thought they where on the wane

tritium

TrueGael wrote: »

I didn't where to start so I decided to reply to your points bit by bit.


third party funding - what do you mean exactly? if you mean fundraise in the States then yes like most other counties have done (particularly those hard hit with emigration over the years) While we have received Capital Grants from the GAA to assist the building of the COE (again like a lot of counties - we are well behind in building this) most of the money had to be fundraised ourselves we dont have the luxury of having multiple universitiers with state of the art facilites and weremn't given a €12m complex like the one in Abbotstown so we had no option but to fundraise the vast majority of the €5.8m



Are you having a laugh comparing Kerry & Dublin in terms of marketability. for starters Kerry market is less than 10 times the size in population and a financially much poorer market for starters. Secondly, the sponsors involved are Kerry companies such as Kerry Group, Castleisland Co-op, The Kerryman newspaper Keanes Supervalu and the Malton hotel. There are many more counties after Dublin you would define as more marketable before you would come to the Kingdom

The whole poor mouth thing is a bit disingenuous tbh. When a county can get a million quid for a short trip over to the states theyre marketable, simple as. And before you try the whole "sure our sponsorship was only by little kerry companies" thing, this would be the kerry group with revenues of approx 6 billion in 2015 right? The one who apparently stumped up a million of the money for the COE?

While AIG's involvement is well publicised there are many other companies involved many with an international flavour such as , Aer Lingus, Ballygowan, Bavaria, Benetti Menswear, Energise Sport, O’Neills, ROS Nutrition, , The Gibson Hotel, and Toyota.

Now let me be very clear, I have no problem with all these bifg sponsors, Dublin shouldn't be criticised or discouraged one iota for getting the best possible deals or to even share this money with the rest. My point is they should use this money to fund their own Games Dev Funding as no one else could possibly attract this laundry list of big companies. Don't worry there will still be plenty for the IC Teams!!!

Tbh i wouldnt have too much of an issue with some form of that once other strong counties like kerry did the same. I guarantee though that 4 minutes after that had been agreed we'd have the same whingers back telling us Dublin still had too much and it should be shared

We won those AI's over a long 125+ years , now with our moderate population that means success can't but be cyclical. Nobody ever feared Kerry like this Dublin team because it looks to the outsider that they are only getting stronger and there isn't an end in sight. Cian O'Callaghan was the best U21 in Ireland this yr by a mile and couldn't get a look in same story with Costello (until the final obviously) and others like Basquel, McHugh etc
I'm still delighted that freak semi happened in 2014 with Donegal otherwise it'd be the drive for 5 next year and we'd have no title in this decade at all!

A couple of other posters have already pointed to the holes in this bit. Ill just add a couple of things:
(I) if cycles of success are ok why is dublin the problem child based on being in a so far relatively short cycle but kerry are fine with a number if much stronger cycles? Just because it looks strong now is no guarantee it will endure and the whole conversation about dublin feels prematue and largely driven by envy in some quarters (not a dig at you btw)
(Ii) given the profile and quality of the young lads playing for kerry why focus on a single dublin player? In terms of a conveyor belt of young lads coming through kerry appear much better placed so again how do we bslance this out for other smaller counties?

bigsheepdog

Just going to add my bit about my own county, Kildare. Alot of people I have met down the years have always asked why is it that a football mad county like ourselves has not had more success on the field and there is one primary reason for this.


Up until perhaps 20 years ago club was always more important than county for any Kildare man. The arrival of mick o dwyer was the start of Kildare folk beginning to put their county on an equal pegging with their own club.
I remember speaking to a former kildare gaa underage coach and he reminisced about how in the 80s 90s and even early 00s the minor football panel management literally had to go looking for lads to tog out for the minor teams. Young lads were more than happy to play for their club but when it came to playing for kildare young lads had little interest. Now compare that to the teams we are producing today when we have over 40 clubs entering minor football teams and i can guarantee you that every one of them young lads dreams of pulling on the white jersey.
Massive credit has to go to the kildare gaa coaches who have put in place an excellent structure from u12's up to minor and u21 which will allow us to compete at the very highest level for the future.

Success on the field has been a rare occurrence down the years for the lilywhites no doubt. However for the 1st time in a long long time we have a serious conveyor belt of young talented footballers coming through the ranks.
i fully expect Kildare to be serious challengers for SAM in the next 3-4 years provided we get the right man in to manage the team.

Traditionally our neighbours in Meath have been the ones to challenge Dublin in Leinster however times are a changing and we will be the ones if any one to knock dublin off their perch.

TrueGael

I'll just give a few quick replies and then I'll leave this thread as there is no more constructive points to be made

I live very near Listowel and believe me knowing Kerry Group like I do they are the most financially prudent company that I have ever come across and certainly aren't in the business of throwing money away willy-nilly. The €6bn figure doesn't come into the equation yes they gave €1m for the COE, AIG have paid over 5m and that's without all the other big sponsors. I think it's fair to say the GAA should bring in an expenditure cap on IC Teams to help level the playing field for all

I just gave the examples of those lads (there the only ones I know off hand, I'm sure you would know loads more) of players who would have walked into any other team well before now, certainly would have in Kerry. It's not a criticism of JG whatsoever just and indication of the other-worldly depth Dublin have and a rebuke to those who say this is cyclical and Dublin will go away in a few years. Those I named are proof that they won't

BonnieSituation

Dots1982 wrote: »

Even if Dublin were a joke that never won anything, the funding they received since 2005 is still not fair, equitable or sensible.

What are you on about? The funding they received was clearly fair. Do you remember the state of GAA in Dublin the last 20 years.

Now we won 5 AI's in 30 years (Yeah I can pick random periods of time as well) We need to be stopped.

FWIW I don't think we'll win another one til 2018 at least. I hope I'm wrong but we'll see.

K-9 wrote: »

The proposal to split Dublin up was pre 2011.

I mentioned feck all about the Dublin split. I was talking about people giving a crap about is. As long as we were not a threat and flattered to deceive the country ignored us. The hypocrisy on this thread is incredible, even for boards.

Godge

bigsheepdog wrote: »

Just going to add my bit about my own county, Kildare. Alot of people I have met down the years have always asked why is it that a football mad county like ourselves has not had more success on the field and there is one primary reason for this.


Up until perhaps 20 years ago club was always more important than county for any Kildare man. The arrival of mick o dwyer was the start of Kildare folk beginning to put their county on an equal pegging with their own club.
I remember speaking to a former kildare gaa underage coach and he reminisced about how in the 80s 90s and even early 00s the minor football panel management literally had to go looking for lads to tog out for the minor teams. Young lads were more than happy to play for their club but when it came to playing for kildare young lads had little interest. Now compare that to the teams we are producing today when we have over 40 clubs entering minor football teams and i can guarantee you that every one of them young lads dreams of pulling on the white jersey.
Massive credit has to go to the kildare gaa coaches who have put in place an excellent structure from u12's up to minor and u21 which will allow us to compete at the very highest level for the future.

Success on the field has been a rare occurrence down the years for the lilywhites no doubt. However for the 1st time in a long long time we have a serious conveyor belt of young talented footballers coming through the ranks.
i fully expect Kildare to be serious challengers for SAM in the next 3-4 years provided we get the right man in to manage the team.

Traditionally our neighbours in Meath have been the ones to challenge Dublin in Leinster however times are a changing and we will be the ones if any one to knock dublin off their perch.

I agree with you. What Kildare are doing is copying the successful Dublin model of promoting the game at underage level. You are seeing success at minor level now and that will feed through.

It often appears the some counties are more interested in warm weather training trips for their senior panel than in promoting the game to juveniles - that is a short-sighted approach.

Dots1982

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What are you on about? The funding they received was clearly fair. Do you remember the state of GAA in Dublin the last 20 years.

Now we won 5 AI's in 30 years (Yeah I can pick random periods of time as well) We need to be stopped.

Ha ha, you know you just said that because a county isn't doing well that it's fair to fund them hugely (more than whole provinces for 10 years) to get them back up?

So tell me how come Dublin are the only county not doing well that are entitled to special treatment?

BonnieSituation

Dots1982 wrote: »

Ha ha, you know you just said that because a county isn't doing well that it's fair to fund them hugely (more than whole provinces for 10 years) to get them back up?

So tell me how come Dublin are the only county not doing well that are entitled to special treatment?

They're not the only one deserving of "special" treatment, but they were the only one to put a fully costed plan in place that the GAA saw the merits of and backed them. We are now reaping the benefits of it. If Leitrim did the same I'm sure the GAA would bounce on it.

People are aware of Dublin's unique position and primacy within Ireland in a whole load of ways aren't they?

Eg. when Dublin GAA clubs need to build a clubhouse or pitches the costs are exponentially larger than some field outside Tulsk or Ballymahon would be. Likewise in other walks of life when a suggestion is made to improve infrastructure (DU, Luas, M50 widening) there has to be a trade off with some other godforsaken backwater to keep the natives happy.

Dublin isn't a normal county in a whole heap of ways. And needs to be treated differently to others and as such funding needs to be directed differently as well.
And be clear about it, the only reason ye give a shoite is because we had the temerity to have won All-Irelands in this decade more than once.

If ye want to go about taking pot-shots start actually looking at the absolute waste of resources in Cork, Limerick etc.

BonnieSituation

Perhaps take this funding chat to the funding thread maybe:

There's some tasty links in there as well:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057376771&page=4

Nonevernomore

Some mad stuff being posted. We're hearing that the money Dublin were given had nothing to do with their recent success. Yet they deserved this money but it had no effect on things. So why was the money given and why is no one from Dublin in favour of the games developemnt money being stopped? Did and does it have an effect or not?
Also games development money is one thing but the sponsorship money is crazy. The thing is that the games development money is the reason for the massive increase in sponsorship. With increased success on the back of the financial windfall came the interest from massive corporations.
Also someone is posting that no one cared about Dublin in the decades past, it's just because they're winning now. Do you not think the reason for increased talk about Dublin coincides with the receipt of millions of euro? Let's us look at some facts. Dublin have won 4 out of the last 6 All Ireland's and I think 11 out of the last 12 Leinster titles. What happened before this?
Dublin won one All Ireland between 83 and 2011! In 2004 Westmeath won the Leinster championship, Laois won the year before that, Meath won in 2001, Kildare in 2000, Offaly in 1997. The Leinster championship was in great health. It was competitive, look at it now?
This situation just can't be ignored and the flat out denial of facts by Dubs is baffling but I suppose it can't be surprising. The alternative for them is to face the reality that without the money they would not have won 4 out of the last 6 All Ireland's. The rest of the country can't just pretend the money doesn't exist however. How can this continue?

Nonevernomore

Also time to quash this myth that if other counties went with costed plans they'd get funding too. The fact is that many counties have done this very thing and have been laughed at by the GAA hierarchy. The GAA invested in Dublin because they could see the financial benefits for them. The GAA is a business. Their aim is to make money. Having a fair championship comes secondary to that.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

Nonevernomore

Everybody knows that. This issue will never go away. It's not going to disappear. To be honest I can see why the Dubs want it to though. It taints their victories. I'm sure every counties supporters would try to ignore the money if it was their county involved.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

Reputable Rog

Pile of ****e considering Kilkenny, Clare, Tipp, Limerick, Waterford have no interest in bogball.

Nonevernomore

Ah it does taint it. To use other sports as an example, in soccer it's pretty clear that teams like Man City would not have gained the success they have without huge resources, same with Chelsea. That's a professional sport however.
Are you forgetting that Dublin didn't have the minerals either for most of the last few decades. Your last sentence is completely false then in this case as that's exactly what Dublin have done!!!

BonnieSituation

Nonevernomore wrote: »

Some mad stuff being posted. We're hearing that the money Dublin were given had nothing to do with their recent success. Yet they deserved this money but it had no effect on things. So why was the money given and why is no one from Dublin in favour of the games developemnt money being stopped? Did and does it have an effect or not?
Also games development money is one thing but the sponsorship money is crazy. The thing is that the games development money is the reason for the massive increase in sponsorship. With increased success on the back of the financial windfall came the interest from massive corporations.
Also someone is posting that no one cared about Dublin in the decades past, it's just because they're winning now. Do you not think the reason for increased talk about Dublin coincides with the receipt of millions of euro? Let's us look at some facts. Dublin have won 4 out of the last 6 All Ireland's and I think 11 out of the last 12 Leinster titles. What happened before this?
Dublin won one All Ireland between 83 and 2011! In 2004 Westmeath won the Leinster championship, Laois won the year before that, Meath won in 2001, Kildare in 2000, Offaly in 1997. The Leinster championship was in great health. It was competitive, look at it now?
This situation just can't be ignored and the flat out denial of facts by Dubs is baffling but I suppose it can't be surprising. The alternative for them is to face the reality that without the money they would not have won 4 out of the last 6 All Ireland's. The rest of the country can't just pretend the money doesn't exist however. How can this continue?

How Joycean!

Any chance you could try paragraphs?

Who said that "that the money Dublin were given had nothing to do with their recent success."?

Nonevernomore

Do you know what a paragraph is?

Nearly every Dublin supporter has said it.

BonnieSituation

Nonevernomore wrote: »

Do you know what a paragraph is?

Nearly every Dublin supporter has said it.

Nearly EVERY Dublin supporter?

Gas.

I know what a paragraph is all right. Locate your enter key so.

tritium

Nonevernomore wrote: »

Ah it does taint it. To use other sports as an example, in soccer it's pretty clear that teams like Man City would not have gained the success they have without huge resources, same with Chelsea. That's a professional sport however.
Are you forgetting that Dublin didn't have the minerals either for most of the last few decades. Your last sentence is completely false then in this case as that's exactly what Dublin have done!!!

So before dublin got the funding was it financially fair in the GAA? If dublin disappeared tomorrow would kerry be competing on a financially level playing field with Leitrim for example? And if that isnt the case (and it isnt) then two questions- why the sudden obsession with dublin? And why do you want Leinster to be ultra competitive when a greater historical anomaly exist in terms of the competiveness of say Munster?

Its funny how many folks are calling for dublin to be hobbled as though somehow that will lead ro an open championship where the weaker counties will suddenly thrive. Tell that to the kildare side that kerry annihilated a while back. It could be just delusion by fans of weaker counties of course but i cant help thinking that most of the whinging is coming from fans of stronger counties who are terrified of losing the place at the top table.

The reaction to Dublin is hilarious. Let us not forget that Dublin have won 3 of 4 of their finals by 1 point, 1 point! They are an incredible team but they are not unbeatable by any means as Jim McGuinness Donegal proved in 14.

From a Tipperary point of view, i seen nothing from Dublin that wouldn't suggest that we wouldn't have beaten them had we got to the final on September 18th and i even think we would have gave a great account of ourselves on October 1st had it gone to replay

The issue is that the gap is more between 5 or 6 teams at the top while the rest are stranded and hopeless. It is sad the way Dublin dominate Leinster especiall y as once dominating Meath are there too. Kildare not much better

StupidLikeAFox

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The issue is that the gap is more between 5 or 6 teams at the top while the rest are stranded and hopeless. It is sad the way Dublin dominate Leinster especiall y as once dominating Meath are there too. Kildare not much better

This tbh. The playing field isn't level when the likes of Dublin, Mayo and Kerry have huge budgets but Leitrim only get something like 20K off their main sponsor. The real focus should be ensuring that all counties have equal availability to resources. Will prob never happen, but the the game will be worse off if the gap continues to grow between the Tier 1, Tier 2 and Tier 3 counties

Realt Dearg Sec

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Pile of ****e considering Kilkenny, Clare, Tipp, Limerick, Waterford have no interest in bogball.

You obviously don't follow the ould football very closely do you?