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Ulster Bank League 2015-2016 Talk/Gossip/Rumours
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thomond2006 wrote: »If they are paid/contracted to the Sevens program then tbh the IRFU can do what they like, much like the provinces releasing players to the clubs. Rescheduling a fixture 7 times is also an extraordinary occurrence.
That's probably the bullish attitude that Corkery was complaining about.0 -
Munster weren't sole ones responsible for changing the fixture. They have some fault but considering Con had so many other comps etc to play senior cup was bound to be moved...MrJones2013 wrote: »That's true but I think the Munster Branch need to be held some bit responsible also, re-scheduling a fixture seven times is a bit crazy.
Well they can and IRFU do contract/pay these guys so what do you expect them to do....That's probably the bullish attitude that Corkery was complaining about.0 -
The Lost Sheep wrote: »Munster weren't sole ones responsible for changing the fixture. They have some fault but considering Con had so many other comps etc to play senior cup was bound to be moved...
Well they can and IRFU do contract/pay these guys so what do you expect them to do....
Expect?
I think it would have been good for the club game to release the two players to play in the final.0 -
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But these are contracted players and in the long term these players will benefit more from being in best shape for a tournament that is giving them a shot at playing in an Olympics. The first Olympics that rugby is taking part in in nearly 100 years.Expect?
I think it would have been good for the club game to release the two players to play in the final.
Yes its unfortunate that they will have missed a final but the final was delayed countless times throughout the season and considering what Young Munster have done in finals before I don't think anyone can talk about being good for the game...
Munsters sent a team that was frankly dangerous to play against Nenagh Ormond in a Munster Senior Plate final back in 2014. They had to ring around for 3rds players and guys well retired to play a Nenagh team that won 2B that season. They turned up with 18 players and it was a disgrace.
A lot of the points he makes have been made here before. Most of the academy players are playing with clubs on a very regular basis and if not are bar some odd occasions either playing at a higher level or are injured. They are not simply wrapped in cotton wool as Corkery claims.David Corkery - IRFU v The Clubs
Having players simply play in the clubs week to week and not at A level etc doesn't help the provinces and as they are the employers they wont let that happen...0 -
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A lot of these sevens players are not actually contracted. The assumption that playing sevens makes you a better rugby player is highly debatable and not an idea I agree with.
Yes a lot of the points Corkery makes have been made before. But they are very relevant and are simply not being addressed by the IRFU. I also share his view that academy players are not playing enough rugby and as such their rugby development is suffering.0 -
Check out Paul O Connell in the Irish Examiner today..interesting what he has to say about AIL/academiesStainalert wrote: »A lot of these sevens players are not actually contracted. The assumption that playing sevens makes you a better rugby player is highly debatable and not an idea I agree with.
Yes a lot of the points Corkery makes have been made before. But they are very relevant and are simply not being addressed by the IRFU. I also share his view that academy players are not playing enough rugby and as such their rugby development is suffering.0 -
Is it? As the argument is fairly strong when you look at how nearly all other top rugby countries have used 7s well and used it in developing players who have progressed to the higher echelons of the game.Stainalert wrote: »A lot of these sevens players are not actually contracted. The assumption that playing sevens makes you a better rugby player is highly debatable and not an idea I agree with.
Yes a lot of the points Corkery makes have been made before. But they are very relevant and are simply not being addressed by the IRFU. I also share his view that academy players are not playing enough rugby and as such their rugby development is suffering.
Academy players are playing a lot of rugby when you look at those who are under 20s and then those who are not most will play a lot of AIL.
Look at UCD teams and they have regularly fielded multiple academy players if these guys are fit and not playing on Leinster or irish sides...0 -
The Lost Sheep wrote: »Yes its unfortunate that they will have missed a final but the final was delayed countless times throughout the season and considering what Young Munster have done in finals before I don't think anyone can talk about being good for the game...
Munsters sent a team that was frankly dangerous to play against Nenagh Ormond in a Munster Senior Plate final back in 2014. They had to ring around for 3rds players and guys well retired to play a Nenagh team that won 2B that season. They turned up with 18 players and it was a disgrace.
This is a disgrace to be honest and I'm not too sure what the full situation was with the game you are referencing but surely YM would have requested that the date of the game be changed as they would have known they had players unavailable? Surely sending retired/3rds players out for a provincial final was the last resort for the club? Was it a message to the branch from the club? Were the club threatened by the branch that not fulfilling the fixture could have implications and had no choice?
It just doesn't make sense that a club would field such a side for a final, especially a provincial final, without good reasoning, I know my club would only do so if there was no alternative.
Also you use the word 'finals' which references the plural, have YM done something similar previously or since?Check out Paul O Connell in the Irish Examiner today..interesting what he has to say about AIL/academies
It's hard to disagree with him, since the last of the players who earned their stripes in the AIL when it was in its heyday before graduating to the Munster set up have finished up with the province they have gone in to freefall and rapid decline.
There is a distinct lack of passion in a lot of the players performances and some play like it's their God given right to wear that jersey when others (CJ Stander and P O'Mahoney are genuinely the only two I can think of) play like they have a point to prove to themselves and others.0 -
It was nothing to do with Munster Rugby, Munster Branch, the competitions committee. All to do with senior players and the club. Sending out that team v Nenagh was to save face.MrJones2013 wrote: »This is a disgrace to be honest and I'm not too sure what the full situation was with the game you are referencing but surely YM would have requested that the date of the game be changed as they would have known they had players unavailable? Surely sending retired/3rds players out for a provincial final was the last resort for the club? Was it a message to the branch from the club? Were the club threatened by the branch that not fulfilling the fixture could have implications and had no choice?
It just doesn't make sense that a club would field such a side for a final, especially a provincial final, without good reasoning, I know my club would only do so if there was no alternative.
Also you use the word 'finals' which references the plural, have YM done something similar previously or since?
Ultimately **** passion and all that surrounds it. Its clichéd nonsense that Munster players are lacking pashun and that's why theyre not as good. Munster have gone into freefall for loads of other reasons. The game has changed significantly since the AIL was in its real hey day which was 90s and early 00s. The pro12 is running 15 seasons and in the first 2 the provinces only played 8/9 games iirc so players still played with clubs.It's hard to disagree with him, since the last of the players who earned their stripes in the AIL when it was in its heyday before graduating to the Munster set up have finished up with the province they have gone in to freefall and rapid decline.
There is a distinct lack of passion in a lot of the players performances and some play like it's their God given right to wear that jersey when others (CJ Stander and P O'Mahoney are genuinely the only two I can think of) play like they have a point to prove to themselves and others.
The sport has moved in. The clubs are important and all prospective academy and young pros will play in the AIL but its role has changed forever and it will not get to where it was before.0 -
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The Lost Sheep wrote: »It was nothing to do with Munster Rugby, Munster Branch, the competitions committee. All to do with senior players and the club. Sending out that team v Nenagh was to save face.
You sound like you have facts to back this up, do you? Did YM seek to have the fixture re-scheduled? If so why wasn't it granted, if not then were the club reprimanded? They should have been as this was a serious issue with players welfare being put at risk. Also you never answered my 'have YM done something similar previously or since' questionThe Lost Sheep wrote: »Ultimately **** passion and all that surrounds it. Its clichéd nonsense that Munster players are lacking pashun and that's why theyre not as good. Munster have gone into freefall for loads of other reasons. The game has changed significantly since the AIL was in its real hey day which was 90s and early 00s. The pro12 is running 15 seasons and in the first 2 the provinces only played 8/9 games iirc so players still played with clubs.
The sport has moved in. The clubs are important and all prospective academy and young pros will play in the AIL but its role has changed forever and it will not get to where it was before.
'**** passion'? Christ I'd rather have 23 players with 100% passion and f*ck all ability rather than zero passion and a tonne of ability any day of the week. Rugby is a collision sport and physicality has a huge part to play in it. If you have someone who wants it more than his opposite number he is going to dominate him all day long, the only way you can want it more is if you have the desire and PASSION to win that collision.
The sport has moved on you're correct but the basic principles of the game will never change and passion has a huge part to play in that, if you don't have that passion and have players who are just in it for the pay cheque then the sport will end up going down the same route as soccer.0 -
I cant show anything but as I was at that game and was told that by YM club men...MrJones2013 wrote: »You sound like you have facts to back this up, do you? Did YM seek to have the fixture re-scheduled? If so why wasn't it granted, if not then were the club reprimanded? They should have been as this was a serious issue with players welfare being put at risk. Also you never answered my 'have YM done something similar previously or since' question
Google it. They seeked to have to rescheduled but reasons gave not good enough etc
Are you serious? Id pick ability over passion all the time. Saying the pro guys lack passion is nonsense. What determines passion? How do you say someone is more passionate?'**** passion'? Christ I'd rather have 23 players with 100% passion and f*ck all ability rather than zero passion and a tonne of ability any day of the week. Rugby is a collision sport and physicality has a huge part to play in it. If you have someone who wants it more than his opposite number he is going to dominate him all day long, the only way you can want it more is if you have the desire and PASSION to win that collision.
The sport has moved on you're correct but the basic principles of the game will never change and passion has a huge part to play in that, if you don't have that passion and have players who are just in it for the pay cheque then the sport will end up going down the same route as soccer.0 -
The Lost Sheep wrote: »It was nothing to do with Munster Rugby, Munster Branch, the competitions committee. All to do with senior players and the club. Sending out that team v Nenagh was to save face.The Lost Sheep wrote: »I cant show anything but as I was at that game and was told that by YM club men...
Google it. They seeked to have to rescheduled but reasons gave not good enough etc
Googled it, can't seem to find anything other than a broken link to an article on the Nenagh Guardian.
They did seek to reschedule it so but someone deemed their reasons as not good enough......sounds like it was something to do with the Munster Branch/competitions committee so. Any idea what the reasons were? Surely it was something to do with player availability given only 18 turned up on the day, a number of them 3rds/retired players.The Lost Sheep wrote: »Are you serious? Id pick ability over passion all the time. Saying the pro guys lack passion is nonsense. What determines passion? How do you say someone is more passionate?
I've played with/against plenty of teams which had plenty of passion and inferior ability and these sides are always tougher to play against and some of the best sides I've played with.
Look back at some of the Munster sides in the early days of the professional era (most of whom earned their stripes in the AIL) and as much of a cliche as it sounds, what they lacked in ability they made up for in passion and were always there or thereabouts when challenging for honours in competitions.
To me body language says alot about how passionate a player is and when you see some players just going through the motions and happy with their pay cheque regardless of the result or even performance at the weekend it doesn't exactly scream passionate to me. It might be harsh or 'nonsense' but it is an opinion and one I'm sure others would have also.0 -
I can't see why anyone would disagree with passion/heart/desire being hugely important. Something that will keep you going put in the extra 10% put your body on the line. A lot of people talk about islanders and maori's only playing to their potential when they have that passion. Look at Bundee Aki.. To say passion has no value is ridiculous it is the same for all walks of life/profession.0
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Well I was at the game and was told by members of YM that players refused to turn up on the day of the game(€€€€€) and they fielded a team of anyone they could find. It was a disgrace. They didn't even turn up with their Gleeson league team.MrJones2013 wrote: »Googled it, can't seem to find anything other than a broken link to an article on the Nenagh Guardian.
They did seek to reschedule it so but someone deemed their reasons as not good enough......sounds like it was something to do with the Munster Branch/competitions committee so. Any idea what the reasons were? Surely it was something to do with player availability given only 18 turned up on the day, a number of them 3rds/retired players.
I've played with/against plenty of teams which had plenty of passion and inferior ability and these sides are always tougher to play against and some of the best sides I've played with.
Look back at some of the Munster sides in the early days of the professional era (most of whom earned their stripes in the AIL) and as much of a cliche as it sounds, what they lacked in ability they made up for in passion and were always there or thereabouts when challenging for honours in competitions.
To me body language says alot about how passionate a player is and when you see some players just going through the motions and happy with their pay cheque regardless of the result or even performance at the weekend it doesn't exactly scream passionate to me. It might be harsh or 'nonsense' but it is an opinion and one I'm sure others would have also.
We are talking about professional players. Continually talking about the importance of passion is nonsense. New Zealand are not continuously the best team in the world because they are the most passionate.
Talking about the Munster teams and early pro era is completely different. The celtic league hadn't started when Munster reached their first European final.0 -
The Lost Sheep wrote: »We are talking about professional players. Continually talking about the importance of passion is nonsense. New Zealand are not continuously the best team in the world because they are the most passionate.
Talking about the Munster teams and early pro era is completely different. The celtic league hadn't started when Munster reached their first European final.
I think you'll find the All Black are pretty passionate about being All Blacks.0 -
The Lost Sheep wrote: »Well I was at the game and was told by members of YM that players refused to turn up on the day of the game(€€€€€) and they fielded a team of anyone they could find. It was a disgrace. They didn't even turn up with their Gleeson league team.
If €€€€€ is the case then you are right and it is a disgrace. It sounds like they had no option but to only play players that were willing to play (would you call that passion?) and if that is the case then I would say you are wrong to slate the club as a whole and only slate the players who refused to play. YM are a club steeped in history and a club I have huge respect for, my own club along with YM and one other club from the city only North Munster clubs that could field teams at all levels independently at underage for the last number of seasons, they were semi finalists in the Div 1A for the last two seasons, Senior Cup finalists this season and Junior Cup winners this season, Munster Club of the year in 2010 and so on and so on. I think it is a bit harsh to be labelling the club as a whole as a 'disgrace' based on the actions of some players you claim are motivated by money. These threads are read by supporters from all clubs in all provinces and weather you realise it or not posts like yours can influence peoples perceptions on their clubs. I wouldn't like my own club to be disrespected in such a manner, I'd doubt you would and I'd doubt any other supporters would either.The Lost Sheep wrote: »We are talking about professional players. Continually talking about the importance of passion is nonsense. New Zealand are not continuously the best team in the world because they are the most passionate.
You keep calling the importance of passion 'nonsense' but I would seriously disagree even in this professional era, look at Connacht this season, plenty of passion behind their performances, the drive to succeed and prove all doubters wrong. You mention NZ, I'd say they are pretty passionate about representing their country, the ultimate honour. Munster v NZ back in 2008, narrowly lost by a point, how many of the Munster squad that day would have made the NZ squad? Passion v ability......The Lost Sheep wrote: »Talking about the Munster teams and early pro era is completely different. The celtic league hadn't started when Munster reached their first European final.
You are right, the celtic league hadn't started by then, it had started when Munster won their first European Cup though, how many of that squad had played at AIL level? Just counted the matchday squad and 17 of the 22 had played AIL (18 if you include Rob Henderson having played with you favourite side YM).0 -
But the over focusing on this is ridiculous.I think you'll find the All Black are pretty passionate about being All Blacks.
They continuously acted the maggot with that. Moving dates etcMrJones2013 wrote: »If €€€€€ is the case then you are right and it is a disgrace. It sounds like they had no option but to only play players that were willing to play (would you call that passion?) and if that is the case then I would say you are wrong to slate the club as a whole and only slate the players who refused to play.
They are but their actions on this occasion were disgraceful and I do respect the club tremendously but that doesn't excuse what they did. I think the club can be labelled disgraceful for what they did around that game. That doesn't mean I still hold that opinion about them.YM are a club steeped in history and a club I have huge respect for, my own club along with YM and one other club from the city only North Munster clubs that could field teams at all levels independently at underage for the last number of seasons, they were semi finalists in the Div 1A for the last two seasons, Senior Cup finalists this season and Junior Cup winners this season, Munster Club of the year in 2010 and so on and so on. I think it is a bit harsh to be labelling the club as a whole as a 'disgrace' based on the actions of some players you claim are motivated by money. These threads are read by supporters from all clubs in all provinces and weather you realise it or not posts like yours can influence peoples perceptions on their clubs. I wouldn't like my own club to be disrespected in such a manner, I'd doubt you would and I'd doubt any other supporters would either.
I just think there is too much focus on people talking about passion. Passion helps of course but people can focus on it and talk about it while ignoring much more important things.You keep calling the importance of passion 'nonsense' but I would seriously disagree even in this professional era, look at Connacht this season, plenty of passion behind their performances, the drive to succeed and prove all doubters wrong. You mention NZ, I'd say they are pretty passionate about representing their country, the ultimate honour. Munster v NZ back in 2008, narrowly lost by a point, how many of the Munster squad that day would have made the NZ squad? Passion v ability......
Yes most of those who won first European cup did play a lot of AIL but you have to take into account age profile of those players....You are right, the celtic league hadn't started by then, it had started when Munster won their first European Cup though, how many of that squad had played at AIL level? Just counted the matchday squad and 17 of the 22 had played AIL (18 if you include Rob Henderson having played with you favourite side YM).
The game has evolved and I as a huge club man, member of committees etc in clubs, promoter of games etc, don't like how so many who follow the sport don't have a notion of the strength of the club game and its importance to the overall survival of the sport but its role in the sport has changed whether you like it or not and we have to be pragmatic about what it can do..0 -
IRFU have announced that they are increasing the maximum number of fully contracted players that a team can select for an AIL fixture to 4 with a maximum of 2 forwards.
No restrictions on players with development or academy contracts0 -
Stainalert wrote: »IRFU have announced that they are increasing the maximum number of fully contracted players that a team can select for an AIL fixture to 4 with a maximum of 2 forwards.
No restrictions on players with development or academy contracts
Good to see, I always thought the restriction was too late in coming. Probably more appropriate in the early years when more full time pro's played. 4 seems sensible to me. No restrictions on development and academy is essential.
I'd be interested to see what club benefits from the additional players? I presume it will be clubs with more pro forwards.0 -
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What clubs do you think will benefit?Good to see, I always thought the restriction was too late in coming. Probably more appropriate in the early years when more full time pro's played. 4 seems sensible to me. No restrictions on development and academy is essential.
I'd be interested to see what club benefits from the additional players? I presume it will be clubs with more pro forwards.
Full article: http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/37560.php#.V1GPdU3JAdU
- existing structure will remain in place until at least the end of the 2017/18 season.
- number of fully contracted players in the match day squad may increase up to a max of four, of which two can be forwards.
- Participation Criteria will remain in place, including the requirement for a Second XV playing in an appropriate second team competition in their province.
- Club Support Scheme financial allocations will be aligned to participation criteria to reward clubs who achieve such criteria.
- The Player Points System will be retained.0 -
The Lost Sheep wrote: »
What clubs do you think will benefit?Good to see, I always thought the restriction was too late in coming. Probably more appropriate in the early years when more full time pro's played. 4 seems sensible to me. No restrictions on development and academy is essential.
I'd be interested to see what club benefits from the additional players? I presume it will be clubs with more pro forwards.
Full article: http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/37560.php#.V1GPdU3JAdU
- existing structure will remain in place until at least the end of the 2017/18 season.
- number of fully contracted players in the match day squad may increase up to a max of four, of which two can be forwards.
- Participation Criteria will remain in place, including the requirement for a Second XV playing in an appropriate second team competition in their province.
- Club Support Scheme financial allocations will be aligned to participation criteria to reward clubs who achieve such criteria.
- The Player Points System will be retained.
Genuinely not really sure. Don't see it helping us massively at the moment but that may change. Possibly Con and YM? Presume the Connacht and Ulster club will benefit most due to their guys being less spread out.
Really don't like PPS. Everything else I'm ok with. League needs to stabilise for a year or too before we go changing it again.0 -
Anyone heard of any transfers?
I've heard a few for Tarf with Jack Power probably the standout of them.0 -
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