White Male Privilege

hatrickpatrick

Should also have pointed out that there's a glaring sentencing disparity for identical crimes, where men in the Western world in general are more likely to be treated more harshly.

Adamantium

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcebgKvAoh0

hatrickpatrick

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

So... this is about men vs women now then? I'll get my coat.

It's not, it's just about disproving the concept that men are more privileged just because they're men. That depends entirely on what lense you look at privilege - corporate, political, social, family, etc.

Those who use the privilege argument selectively choose those areas in which men have completely unfair advantages, and deliberately ignore the reverse.

hatrickpatrick

Volatility Surface wrote: »

This is a poorly reasoned post, comparison is clearly necessary for the subject matter. Revisit your opinion.

To be fair, the post I was responding to asked me to justify why I thought men were on the receiving end of more double standards than women in our society. Didn't see how I was supposed to answer that without providing a list of examples.

The point is, male privilege does not exist. Men have certain totally unfair advantages and so do women. In my honest opinion women have a lot more, but that's irrelevant. Who has it worse is irrelevant - all double standards are equally revolting and should be eradicated. Divisive language like "you have more privilege than they do so your problems don't matter" and "check your privilege" (which basically means "you don't have the right to voice your opinion because of who you are") only cause to infuse frustration, disillusionment, resentment, and in some unfortunate cases eventual hatred.

KomradeBishop

Just to stir the shít pot a bit - are we privileged on a worldwide scale, for being born in Ireland (or rather, 'the west' in general), rather than Africa? - and if so, is it fair to point out the Irish having such a privilege, without countering that with all of the privileges someone in Africa/Somalia might have?

hatrickpatrick

I long for a world in which men fight for women to not be judged on their sexuality, clothing, promiscuity etc and women fight for men to be cut more slack in social interaction, not to have unfair outcomes in court battles, etc.

There's absolutely no reason we can't all work together to eradicate injustice (those who are willing to sacrifice their own privileges because they don't like being unfairly advantaged, of course - those who are happy to take advantage of double standards obviously won't take part in any such movement), but in order to do that we need to first eradicate divisive and resentment inducing terms such as "slut / stud", "violence against women", "male privilege", "pussy pass" and anything else which pits one gender against another.

Our society is bollocksed, and we're not going to fix that unless we help eachother out.

Just my opinion though.

So OP - you have white against black. Ireland against America culture. And in the middle a little bit of male V female support - ramified by male suicide - all topped off by a class dig that you have a studio apartment and feel under privileged.

You got it all in this thread. The previous ones focused generally one one issue. You are trying to hard now.

AndonHandon

White, middle class women ranting about societal justice rings hollow.

RayM

As a white male, I blame feminist social justice warriors for all the things I've caused to go wrong with my life.

RomanKnows

Adamantium wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcebgKvAoh0

This really fails by not being remotely funny.

Shenshen

Cold War Kid wrote: »

Kinda fashionable to whinge about middle-class people (much of this whingeing being done by middle-class people themselves).

I get that we middle-class people have it good - wouldn't deny the privileges that come with it, and I'm grateful. But that doesn't mean it's fair game to sneer at us for not being "real" enough (or whatever nonsense lingo gets used).

I think this is the same principle that should get applied to privileged white males (and indeed females, in the West).

Personally, I've only heard it brought up when the privileged where showing utter ignorance about the problems the less privileged parts of the population where facing.
And in that context, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to be aware that as a white European, we really were born with a silver spoon in our mouths, and that much of the rest of the world wasn't.

bb1234567

tritium wrote: »

And yet the vast majority of white males don't occupy priveliged and powerful positions.

There are only so many powerful positions. And when there is a powerful position for somebody to fill it will most likely be a white male filling it. Thats the point.

Shenshen

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's not, it's just about disproving the concept that men are more privileged just because they're men. That depends entirely on what lense you look at privilege - corporate, political, social, family, etc.

Those who use the privilege argument selectively choose those areas in which men have completely unfair advantages, and deliberately ignore the reverse.

I love how you focus on the "male" in white male, complete ignoring the "white"....

hatrickpatrick

Shenshen wrote: »

I love how you focus on the "male" in white male, complete ignoring the "white"....

I don't think it's all that relevant in Ireland where we don't have systematic racism the way they do in the U.S. at the moment. I don't recall any laws in Ireland which make it legal for white people to do something it isn't legal for black people to do for instance, but we do have a law which makes it illegal for a male to do something an equivalent female violates no laws by doing.

So arguably, sexism is a bigger issue in Ireland than racism.

tritium

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Just to stir the shít pot a bit - are we privileged on a worldwide scale, for being born in Ireland (or rather, 'the west' in general), rather than Africa? - and if so, is it fair to point out the Irish having such a privilege, without countering that with all of the privileges someone in Africa/Somalia might have?

That's actually a good point that goes to the heart of why the "White male privilege" idea is flawed. The concept is generally an invention of a small elite jockeying for position amongst themselves. While we may be able to pick a distinct slice of society and point out a group within it that has specific advantages (although as others have noted it would be unlikely not to also have disadvantages), when we look at society as a whole (either locally or globally) there are a host of factors that have dramatically more impact on relative 'privilege'. Indeed the extremes of separation of the distribution are generally far more pronounced when we consider some of these other factors. On a global scale, to extend your point about the privilege of being born in the first world, any relative privilege gap for one or the other gender or indeed of an (Irish born) ethnicity is trivial relative to the gap down to the (average) Somalian. In effect the "White Male privilege" idea only holds if whoever posits it is allowed to frame it within an extremely narrow and biased window.

El_Duderino 09

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I don't think it's all that relevant in Ireland where we don't have systematic racism the way they do in the U.S. at the moment. I don't recall any laws in Ireland which make it legal for white people to do something it isn't legal for black people to do for instance, but we do have a law which makes it illegal for a male to do something an equivalent female violates no laws by doing.

So arguably, sexism is a bigger issue in Ireland than racism.

You cant think of any law in Ireland that prevents consenting adults from marrying? You can't see any grounds used to discriminate in this country? Seriously?

hatrickpatrick

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You cant think of any law in Ireland that prevents consenting adults from marrying? You can't see any grounds used to discriminate in this country? Seriously?

On racial grounds, in law? Not that I can think of.
Are there any laws which specifically make certain rules only for black or white peoples the way the underage sex law criminalises males specifically, genuinely unaware of any such laws but I could be mistaken - disgusted if they do exist.

Chileanwine

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You cant think of any law in Ireland that prevents consenting adults from marrying? You can't see any grounds used to discriminate in this country? Seriously?

When did he say he couldn't think of any laws in Ireland preventing consenting adults from marrying? He said no such thing.

Christ, the tedium.

bb1234567

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I don't think it's all that relevant in Ireland where we don't have systematic racism the way they do in the U.S. at the moment. I don't recall any laws in Ireland which make it legal for white people to do something it isn't legal for black people to do for instance, but we do have a law which makes it illegal for a male to do something an equivalent female violates no laws by doing.

So arguably, sexism is a bigger issue in Ireland than racism.

We also have such a small non white population, Id say a lot of people in counties like leitrim and other small rural countries don't know any non white people personally

El_Duderino 09

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

On racial grounds, in law? Not that I can think of.
Are there any laws which specifically make certain rules only for black or white peoples the way the underage sex law criminalises males specifically, genuinely unaware of any such laws but I could be mistaken - disgusted if they do exist.

You said you can't see overt discrimination akin to blacs not being allowed to do something so I pointed out a situation where gays are nt allowed to do something in this very country at this very moment.

We use all sorts of grounds to discriminate against people. Age, Race Sexual Orientation, Age, Socioeconomic Status, Gender, Physical Dimentions, Intelligence, Education, Family Status, Culture, Accent, Nationality, Attractiveness, Wealth.

The best way to overcome those prejudices is to at least become aware that they exist.

You keep pointing out situations where men are discriminated against. You're not wrong, I can't figure out whether you's be happier to leave it the way it is where men are disadvantaged in some cases and women are disadvantaged in others, or if you would actually like to change it for the better.

Shenshen

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I don't think it's all that relevant in Ireland where we don't have systematic racism the way they do in the U.S. at the moment. I don't recall any laws in Ireland which make it legal for white people to do something it isn't legal for black people to do for instance, but we do have a law which makes it illegal for a male to do something an equivalent female violates no laws by doing.

So arguably, sexism is a bigger issue in Ireland than racism.

And that would be a statement based on privilege.
Go and ask a non-white friend or colleague of yours living in Ireland and ask them if they feel they are being treated the same way as white Irish people are treated.

I don't believe there are any laws in the US either at the moment which differenciates between whites and black and gives one more rights than the other, btw. Not sure which laws you might be thinking of?

bb1234567

Shenshen wrote: »

And that would be a statement based on privilege.
Go and ask a non-white friend or colleague of yours living in Ireland and ask them if they feel they are being treated the same way as white Irish people are treated.

I don't believe there are any laws in the US either at the moment which differenciates between whites and black and gives one more rights than the other, btw. Not sure which laws you might be thinking of?

Theres no laws but for instance police are obviously told to or else subconsciously disproportionately target coloured people as seen by the incarceration rates of latinos and black men

and I would say a coloured person living in a middle class area of dublin experiences zero racism. Ive only asked my Indian friend and she says she's never experienced racism here. And thats in waterford

Chickentown

bb1234567 wrote: »

Being white and male doesn't mean your life will be fantastic, it just means it has the potential to be more fantastic than if you were say black/female/muslim/ insert any other 'oppressed' group

That is so racist, how dare you categorize race as white or non-white, you only serve to ... yadda, yadda, yadda.

*Takes off libbo hat

hatrickpatrick

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You said you can't see overt discrimination akin to blacs not being allowed to do something so I pointed out a situation where gays are nt allowed to do something in this very country at this very moment.

I didn't say that. I was asked why I focused on the male part of "white male privilege" instead of the white part, and I responded that we don't have any laws or endemic societal norms which discriminate against members of certain races.

There may be one on one racism in the same way as there is one on one sexism, but this is not the same as either a legal or societal norm which actively discriminates.

We use all sorts of grounds to discriminate against people. Age, Race Sexual Orientation, Age, Socioeconomic Status, Gender, Physical Dimentions, Intelligence, Education, Family Status, Culture, Accent, Nationality, Attractiveness, Wealth.

The best way to overcome those prejudices is to at least become aware that they exist.

You keep pointing out situations where men are discriminated against. You're not wrong, I can't figure out whether you's be happier to leave it the way it is where men are disadvantaged in some cases and women are disadvantaged in others, or if you would actually like to change it for the better.

Why would I be happier to leave it as it is? I have already stated that I support living in a demographic blind society which employs no double standards whatsoever in how people are treated.

I am merely pointing out that in Ireland, there are no laws that I can think of which explicitly say "black people are banned from doing something white people are allowed to do". Yet we have one such law which states that women do not have to follow a particular law men have to follow. So in that context, claiming that men in Ireland have the upper hand in terms of privilege is moronic. That's what I was trying to get across.

DoYouEvenLift

Attractive white women would be above any white man with regards to privilege.


I don't complain about that either because I'm not a whingey kunt. I realise that life's not fair and some people are born luckier than others and some people have to work harder than others. Pointing the finger and blaming everything but onesself and making excuses is pathetic.

engineerbrah

Why wouldn't white people hold most of the power positions in countries that are predominantly white? Nation states are supposed to represent the ethnicity they consist of.

Go to Ghana or Saudi Arabia and see how far your 'white privilege' takes you.

The whole concept of white privilege is leftist nonsense.

Irish Guitarist

'Cisgender'? So there's a label on being born a woman and not wanting to have a sex change now? What's disturbing is that someone knows all these hip terms but has no idea how to use 'AKA' in a sentence.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Ok engineerbrah, maybe what you say is true. Let's look further afield.

I used to live in Korea. Koreans show obvious favoritism towards white foreigners. In comparison black, Indian or South-East Asian people are treated like dirt. A lot of schools hiring English teachers would have an imcompetent white teacher over a competent black teacher.

Or go to Bolivia, a country with a indigenous majority but which didn't have a native president until 2002.

So yes, white privilege can apply in countries without white majorities.

KomradeBishop

tritium wrote: »

That's actually a good point that goes to the heart of why the "White male privilege" idea is flawed. The concept is generally an invention of a small elite jockeying for position amongst themselves. While we may be able to pick a distinct slice of society and point out a group within it that has specific advantages (although as others have noted it would be unlikely not to also have disadvantages), when we look at society as a whole (either locally or globally) there are a host of factors that have dramatically more impact on relative 'privilege'. Indeed the extremes of separation of the distribution are generally far more pronounced when we consider some of these other factors. On a global scale, to extend your point about the privilege of being born in the first world, any relative privilege gap for one or the other gender or indeed of an (Irish born) ethnicity is trivial relative to the gap down to the (average) Somalian. In effect the "White Male privilege" idea only holds if whoever posits it is allowed to frame it within an extremely narrow and biased window.

True - but this is the important bit: There are two ways to frame that:
1: The privilege the western world has over Africans/Somalians is significant/notable/important (and something should be done about it), or
2: The above privilege is not important/notable (and nothing should be done about it).

If we argue '1', that the above privilege is notable and that something should be done to correct that, we then come to: Priorities:
- There are probably more privileged groups of people (at the expense of other groups) in the world, other than westerners vs Africans, but:
- Should resolving westerners excessive privilege over Somalians/Africans, take priority over resolving the unwarranted privilege of all other groups?

However, there is no logical reason why we can't work on resolving unwarranted privileges for multiple groups at the same time - we don't have to resolve the privilege the western world has over Africans/Somalians, before we resolve the privileges other groups in society have first.
For example, Saudi Arabia shouldn't forget about resolving the many reprehensible privileges and/or rights-violations placed on either gender (or on any one gender - guess which one I'm talking about? ), just because Africa/Somalia has far lesser privileges compared to SA overall.

So the point is - if you acknowledge that any group in the world has unwarranted privileges relative to any other group in the world (e.g. westerners vs Africans), and if you acknowledge that the privileged group has a responsibility to recognize that and to do something to correct the imbalance - then, for the sake of logical consistency, you have to acknowledge that this applies to other groups in society as well, who hold a privileged position relative to other groups.


You can't negate that, by saying both groups have their own unique privileges either, and that they cancel each other out - as that is like saying the privilege westerners have over Africans/Somalians, is cancelled out by the 'privileges' Africans/Somalians have over westerners