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White Male Privilege
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zeffabelli wrote: »YEah I just don't see it as cut and dried like that.
Well then let me ask you a hypothetical question: if you were in an abusive relationship yourself, under what circumstances do you imagine yourself saying "s/he's not that bad really"? Because I've done the whole "manipulative and abusive because of depression" thing and I've been severely depressed myself as well without hurting a partner. At the end of the day, relationship abuse is disgusting.
Now aside from that, do you at least accept the current cultural paradigm that if any man hits any women, once, he's a vile pig who "will definitely do it again, dump him NOW", while if a woman does it, in most cases those same people will say "God, I wonder what he did to her to make her so angry?!"0 -
hatrickpatrick wrote: »Well then let me ask you a hypothetical question: if you were in an abusive relationship yourself, under what circumstances do you imagine yourself saying "s/he's not that bad really"? Because I've done the whole "manipulative and abusive because of depression" thing and I've been severely depressed myself as well without hurting a partner. At the end of the day, relationship abuse is disgusting.
Now aside from that, do you at least accept the current cultural paradigm that if any man hits any women, once, he's a vile pig who "will definitely do it again, dump him NOW", while if a woman does it, in most cases those same people will say "God, I wonder what he did to her to make her so angry?!"
For me, it would all be context dependent.
Some would consider bad language abusive, others wouldn't.
I know a man, not violent, who had both his son and his wife at different times hold a knife up to him. I know both the wife and the son too. None of these people are bad people. They are flawed and all made mistakes. After tolerating years of affairs, not coming home, arrogance, immaturity, in the wider context of a stable family, limits were reached.
You could call her a jerk if you want. But then I could give you another picture of the same woman who loved him so much she consoled him through the heartbreak of his mistress leaving him.
So for me it's not black and white based on an odd incident or two, but of the whole story. It's very hard to judge other people's relationships.0 -
zeffabelli wrote: »For me, it would all be context dependent.
Some would consider bad language abusive, others wouldn't.
I know a man, not violent, who had both his son and his wife at different times hold a knife up to him. I know both the wife and the son too. None of these people are bad people. They are flawed and all made mistakes. After tolerating years of affairs, not coming home, arrogance, immaturity, in the wider context of a stable family, limits were reached.
You could call her a jerk if you want. But then I could give you another picture of the same woman who loved him so much she consoled him through the heartbreak of his mistress leaving him.
So for me it's not black and white based on an odd incident or two, but of the whole story. It's very hard to judge other people's relationships.
Fair enough, that's your opinion. I have a lower threshold for this kind of stuff after going through it previously tbh, the minute anything like that starts happening in a relationship for me I'm gone.
Again though, do you accept that wider society holds a gendered double standard on this issue? We're surrounded by messages regarding "abuse against women by men" even though it's well documented that women are perfectly capable of being just as abusive in relationships. And certainly from reading online columns, blogs, hell even Boards, people tend to adopt a much sterner tone when it's man on woman abuse rather than vice versa. A woman who goes to a support form about an abusive relationship is likely to be told "leave him immediately, if he did it once he'll do it again" whereas guys (including myself all those years ago) are likely to be told "talk to her, find out what's wrong, if you did anything, what's happening in her life etc".
That double standard was backed up by the UK home office which endorsed entirely one sided TV ad campaigns regarding teenage relationships and potential abuse therein.
Are you honestly saying that you haven't noticed this double standard? Hell, the fact that America's domestic abuse law is called the "violence against women act" is discrimination in and of itself. It should be gender neutral, as the potential for abuse is gender neutral.0 -
hatrickpatrick wrote: »Are you honestly saying that you haven't noticed this double standard? Hell, the fact that America's domestic abuse law is called the "violence against women act" is discrimination in and of itself. It should be gender neutral, as the potential for abuse is gender neutral.
Don't get me started on this Act.... seriously a civil liberties nightmare and typical of the victim climate of the 1990s. I wouldn't agree with this legislation for either gender.
Remember it came out of when Oprah was in her hayday, the memory wars scandals, OJ Simpson, and Clinton having to compensate for his sex harassment scandals by pretending to give a crap about women. Clinton also made these crazy sex offendor laws, and is primarly the reason the US has the incarceration rate it has today.
As for advice forums, well people are responding to decontextualised information. I would question alot of what I read there. Thing is is I have no idea if there is any objective reality to what you are saying or if you are letting personal experience cloud a larger perception?0 -
Bill Maher says it better than I could... we live in a feminized/female biased culture.
But that's not to say it's all bad - personally I quite like many aspects of modern culture. And also, men have largely been responsible for helping create this shift. So it would be foolish to act like we're victims! lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x64cy3Bcr980 -
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zeffabelli wrote: »Don't get me started on this Act.... seriously a civil liberties nightmare and typical of the victim climate of the 1990s. I wouldn't agree with this legislation for either gender.
Remember it came out of when Oprah was in her hayday, the memory wars scandals, OJ Simpson, and Clinton having to compensate for his sex harassment scandals by pretending to give a crap about women. Clinton also made these crazy sex offendor laws, and is primarly the reason the US has the incarceration rate it has today.
As for advice forums, well people are responding to decontextualised information. I would question alot of what I read there. Thing is is I have no idea if there is any objective reality to what you are saying or if you are letting personal experience cloud a larger perception?
That's why I'm genuinely asking you have you not noticed a cultural double standard. Most guys I know, not just myself, have noticed it. And you agree that VAWA is a clusterf*ck - if feminists genuinely care about equality, why do so many of them defend it, and indeed the existence of the expression "violence against women"? Implying that violence is more or less acceptable based on the gender (or any other demographic attribute, indeed) of the victim is unnecessarily divisive and discriminatory, yet those who claim to be the only legitimate voice for gender equality are deafeningly silent about it.0 -
hatrickpatrick wrote: »That's why I'm genuinely asking you have you not noticed a cultural double standard. Most guys I know, not just myself, have noticed it. And you agree that VAWA is a clusterf*ck - if feminists genuinely care about equality, why do so many of them defend it, and indeed the existence of the expression "violence against women"? Implying that violence is more or less acceptable based on the gender (or any other demographic attribute, indeed) of the victim is unnecessarily divisive and discriminatory, yet those who claim to be the only legitimate voice for gender equality are deafeningly silent about it.
I cannot speak for feminists any more than I can speak for environmentalists, Isis, or lobster rights activists. Ask them because I don't know.0 -
zeffabelli wrote: »For me, it would all be context dependent.
Some would consider bad language abusive, others wouldn't.
I know a man, not violent, who had both his son and his wife at different times hold a knife up to him. I know both the wife and the son too. None of these people are bad people. They are flawed and all made mistakes. After tolerating years of affairs, not coming home, arrogance, immaturity, in the wider context of a stable family, limits were reached.
You could call her a jerk if you want. But then I could give you another picture of the same woman who loved him so much she consoled him through the heartbreak of his mistress leaving him.
So for me it's not black and white based on an odd incident or two, but of the whole story. It's very hard to judge other people's relationships.
By those low standards no one is bad. Holding a knife to someone. Is bad.0 -
In the style of tritium here's a quick summary
NO camp: No, it doesn't, for the following reasons
Yes camp: Yes it does, for the following reasons
NO camp:No it doesn't, because video games are criticized
Yes camp: Yes it does, because women are subject to just as many double standards
NO camp: But men are judged on looks too!
Yes camp:Uhhh, no they're not
NO camp:But men are judged on success!
Yes camp:How is something genetic and superficial comparable to success?
NO camp:Men have conscription!
Yes camp:Women are at a distinct disadvantage that men are immune from.
NO camp:Men die younger!
Yes camp:That is due to several factors that change throughout culture and time
NO camp:Men have weaker immune systems!
Yes camp: Women have weaker bodies, and, in addition, have a distinct disadvantage that men are immune from
NO camp:How is that mens' fault? It's not because of patriarchy! Stop whining!
Yes camp: What does that have to do with privilege?
No camp:......................................................Did we mention conscription?
The actual situation is so complex that a simple concept such as "white male privilege" is not sufficient to describe the reality that we live in.
It's a catchphrase that certain people use so that they can feel a certain way. It does not reflect reality.
Are some white males privileged? Yes. Just as some white females are privileged or some non-white males are privileged.
You are making arguments about women being judged on looks but that's a good thing for attractive women. It sucks for the fatties and the uglies but the only way to avoid a situation like that is to never judge anyone by any criteria ever. If we were to suddenly start judging women based on intelligence then the smart girls would get all the attention and the dummies (or those that can't afford n education) would be shunned. How is that any fairer than judging them on looks?
I would say that this thread has demonstrated that there are clear advantages and disadvantages that come with being a man or a woman. We have also demonstrated that one persons privilege may be seen as a burden in the eyes of another.
I'm not sure why it's so hard for people like you to accept that? Your problem seems to be that you need to define the world in absolute black and white terms. Why is that?
Would you be so kind as to state exactly what you think "white male privilege" is? Could you give a more detailed description?0 -
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silverfeather wrote: »
yeah it really is
you can tell its written by a man and not some deluded feminist :rolleyes:0 -
silverfeather wrote: »
Is there any proof of the 'journalist' being a genuine transexual? Haven't read the actual article, it's on everydayfeminism after all lol.0 -
silverfeather wrote: »
I thought and hoped and prayed we'd never see this thread on the first page of the forum again.0 -
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Great! An hour and a half long YouTube video *rubs hands together* See you in a while.The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »
Even though it was made by this twat, I'll make sure to watch it from start to finish (taking careful notes along the way) before responding, as otherwise I'd be committing the dreaded Ad Hominem - which has no valid uses in this circumstance.0 -
KomradeBishop wrote: »Great! An hour and a half long YouTube video *rubs hands together* See you in a while.
Even though it was made by this twat, I'll make sure to watch it from start to finish (taking careful notes along the way) before responding, as otherwise I'd be committing the dreaded Ad Hominem - which has no valid uses in this circumstance.
Well as you know, as with all online content, it is unfortunately mandatory viewing.
But I can give you at least some clue as to what its about.
Its a video about male privilege, some sharp eyed individuals might have already gathered that by the fact that it has a title with the words 'male' and 'privilege' and is on a thread about male privilege.
As for the individual who made the video, if reason and history has taught us anything its that we should dismiss the message based on the messenger.0 -
silverfeather wrote: »
I thought the current narrative was that trans people are even more oppressed and discriminated against than women?
The article makes no sense and it's point is 100% dependent on the writer passing as a man all of the time. Surely upon discovery that he used to identify as a woman people would revert back to treating him like a woman or treating him as a trans person?
Point 4 is "I get paid more" but Point 5 is "it's easier for me to be poor". Hm. How are we defining "poor" here?
I could go on but some of the points are absurd. Point 8 "I’m Not Held Accountable for Keeping Rape from Happening" and Point 9 "I’m Very Likely to Arrive Home Safely After Walking Alone at Night" are kind of weird things to say.
It's like one of those anecdotes you hear about a guy dressing up as a woman on a night out and the sexual harassment he receives all night long suddenly opens his eyes to the "reality" of being a woman in society.
In truth, I think that transgender and transsexual people probably have it much tougher making their way in this society than women do. So it seems rather odd to me that this person found himself gaining all of the privilege that comes with being a man and conveniently not experiencing any of the negativity that, apparently, comes with being a trans man.0 -
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It's the usual neohippie nonsense O. Ads for "self love" say it all. Precious snowflakes apparently too delicate to live in a modern, safe and long lived society without trigger warnings and fears of micro aggression.Point 4 is "I get paid more" but Point 5 is "it's easier for me to be poor". Hm. How are we defining "poor" here?
As for the easier to be poor nonsense, how come men vastly outnumber women among the homeless? Plus the paid more aspect is a crock and a provable one. In Ireland single women earn more than single men and that factoid came from an Irish women's group/taskforce who were complaining about the pay gap. You couldn't make this stuff up. It's obvious why too as more and more women go on to third level than men. Though little is mentioned about the boys and young men being left behind. Go way with your neohippie talk of "privilege"Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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It's the usual neohippie nonsense O. Ads for "self love" say it all. Precious snowflakes apparently too delicate to live in a modern, safe and long lived society without trigger warnings and fears of micro aggression.
As for the easier to be poor nonsense, how come men vastly outnumber women among the homeless? Plus the paid more aspect is a crock and a provable one. In Ireland single women earn more than single men and that factoid came from an Irish women's group/taskforce who were complaining about the pay gap. You couldn't make this stuff up. It's obvious why too as more and more women go on to third level than men. Though little is mentioned about the boys and young men being left behind. Go way with your neohippie talk of "privilege"
Surely, there must be poor families in Ireland that have been poor for generations?
I mean that the grandparents were poor, the parents were poor and now the children are being raised in an environment that does not provide opportunities for them to create a better life for themselves.
I see a lot of messed up people in Dublin city center, both men and women, and you have to wonder what kind of future there can be for these folks?
I can't even really figure out who these kinds of articles are for or what impact or change they are expecting to make.
The top earning men in the world probably don't have time to read stuff like this, so they don't care. Their daughters will reap the benefits of having a millionaire father so they wont care.
The really poor might not even have internet access and probably have more to worry about that the kind of issues mentioned in the article. So they don't care either.
Which leaves us with people, like myself, who I would describe as consumers. We want to buy things and we want to be entertained.
Should articles, like those on "Everyday Feminism", be seen as anything other than entertainment? To me, this particular article seemed like a sort of fictional read. Some people might get a kick out of imagining themselves as being oppressed by "The Man". This article allows them to indulge in the fantasy of fighting or social justice, or at least cheering from the sidelines. For people like myself, it makes me stop to think and I will weigh up in my mind how realistic I think this scenario might be. Then I'll move on. It's just a piece of entertainment.
If these articles are really exposing White Male Privilege then that's great. What happens next though? We pay women more? OK, I am happy with that. Do they get a flat "woman's rate" or can we find ourselves in a situation where two woman in the same job are getting paid different amounts? If so, then should that be allowed?0 -
OK, I hate the phrase "check your privilege" for a start. It'sa a bloody dumb argument technique that is basically shutting someone down.
There are some areas where women have a certain "female privilege". Father's rights when it comes to kids is a big one. Male suicide rates are another. Showing emotions is a third. Oddly enough, however, all of these issues DO ALSO come down to a gender disparity that it behooves us all to correct, male and female.
Fathers' rights - if a man and a woman produce a kid accidentally, it is generally ASSUMED that the woman is the one that will give up her life and career to raise the child. In many cases, the father wants the child and will have to fight for the right to his son or daughter. The mother may not even particularly want to raise the child, despite loving him/her, but Society Expects. Then again, both may want it, and the female tends to automatically win, because mothers. This is ridiculous on both mother and father. It should be down, in a case like that, to which is better equipped to raise the child in their home and the other parent certainly gets visiting rights and taking the sprog for X days, and the rest of the usual procedure. This situation would not be the problem it is but for ingrained gender roles, and it is indeed unfair on both parties.
Males are less encouraged to get help because gender roles once more. Society is harder on men seeking help and showing emotions. It's considered feminine and/or weak. That's again a major problem that both genders needs to consider, because a) there are men that need help, and b) there's an ingrained prejudice against appearing "weak and womanly" to use an old phrase.
White male privilege does indeed exist, but not in all sectors. I thoroughly dislike going into a hardware store or a computer shop and being treated like an imbecile. Or being asked what my partner plans to do with X piece of equipment. I'm the bloody technogeek between myself and my partner and certainly the computer expert! My partner also wouldn't know one end of a bike from another, so I don't need a dick condescendingly telling me what I should tell him about it.
Another one is being able to go out in whatever damned clothing I like without being threatened, intimidated, or treated as a sexual object for whoever the hell likes. Most men don't need to worry about what time it is walking home after sunset for fear of being raped. That very lack of needing to be concerned about it is a male privilege.
Basically, everyone faces issues and everyone will, at some stage, face a problem that is generally limited to their gender only. Everyone then gets irritated at it being suggested that these issues don't exist.
TL:DR - Everyone's got issues, some to do with what gender body they were born in. Historically, women have had many more issues and are still fighting away from them. But gender expectations and treatment affect men and women both, and are unhealthy for both, and that should be realised and dealt with.0 -
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TL:DR - Everyone's got issues, some to do with what gender body they were born in. Historically, women have had many more issues and are still fighting away from them. But gender expectations and treatment affect men and women both, and are unhealthy for both, and that should be realised and dealt with.
I totally agree with you on this. I think that it's not good for children if they can go online and read all of this "men vs women" kind of stuff without any proper background, context or education.
If you let people with extreme opinions run wild and unchallenged then eventually they are going to win over the hearts and minds of the younger generation and there will be no comeback as opposing views are shot down with a few quirky buzzwords.
There was a video doing the rounds last year with all these little girls swearing about sexism and it was kind of disturbing to see these young kids talking about "1 in 5 women" being raped or sexually assaulted by men. Who is teaching their kids that kind of stuff? Why are these people trying to teach children this type of stuff?
It's one thing to inform kids about rape or other serious crimes. It's another thing altogether to tell them that X% of woman will be raped by "men".
I would still be hesitant to use phrases like "<Group A> Privilege" to describe things were "Group A" is obviously a very diverse group.
We may find ourselves having a problem is society when we start denying that a group of 1,000 random white males could still be more diverse, in terms of character and interests and life experiences, than a group of carefully selected men and women from different cultural backgrounds.
Some people will define themselves by their experiences and their ideas, with nationality or gender being less important to them. Other people might put nationality or gender above all things and be really patriotic or whatever. The mix of people makes it very, very, difficult to lay down rigid, well defined, descriptions of our society.
Then there is the fact that we are a sexually dimorphic species and this is something that will not change any time soon. We might try to reduce the impact of that but ultimately the differences between the genders will lead to trends and those trends will be measured and presented using statistics.
Once people start labeling those trends "privileges" we open the door for misinterpretation and potential discrimination and/or injustice.0 -
It's not everyday you hear someone so deep up their own hole that they're unlikely to have seen daylight in years, but...silverfeather wrote: »
1. I’m Suddenly Funny
2. Yet I’m Still Taken (More) Seriously
3. I Rarely Get Interrupted
Diddums. Because only men, and all men are all seen as funny, taken seriously and never get interrupted. None are ever considered geeks or outcasts, made fun of or relegated to beta status in our inherent pecking order.
It's not because we're men, it's because you're unfunny, talent-less and come out with little more than vacuous crap not worth hearing.
4. I Get Paid More
Well as a transgender women you will likely earn more as the chances of your having children are smaller and that's what causes the pay gap. Without children, women in their forties out earn their male counterparts by about 15%.
5. It’s Easier for Me to Be Poor
Except for the fact you'll far more likely be living on the street than a woman. Which I suspect is not easier.
6. My Clothing Is More Practical
Then wear it. Seriously, who's forcing you to wear mini stilts on your feet? Is it men who buy Cosmo and force women to buy into that crap? Stop whinging and blaming everyone else for your daft choices.
7. I Get a Ton of Free Passes
Yes, because women never get away with teating everyone around them like shìt during PMS. Or hitting a man - they never get away with that. Fscking idiot.
9. I’m Very Likely to Arrive Home Safely After Walking Alone at Night
TBH, you're more likely to arrive home safely than a man. Gangs looking for a fight don't exactly look for women to jump and beat the crap out of late at night.
13. I’m Allowed to Have Body Hair
You never had a job where having to wear a suit, tie and be clean shaven was obligatory then. Explains the quality of your writing.
14. I’m Allowed to Grow Old
Except you won't likely get quite as old...
16. My Abilities Speak Louder Than My Appearances at Work
Bollocks. Good looking people, regardless of gender, will get promoted, raises and generally do better than ugly ones. It's not fair, it's superficial, but women don't have a monopoly on that one.
17. The Bulk of Porn Is Made with Me in Mind
Do you want it made with women in mind if you don't buy it? If you create a demand, you'll find that will... ahem, 50 Shades of Gray... you'll get a lot of porn with women in mind appearing.
18. Older White Guys Treat Me Like a Best Friend
FTW??!! Do you want older white guys (I presume black ones are not as friendly) to treat women as best friends and strike up conversations with them too? Can't wait to hear your interpretation on that one.
Get over it. It's not our fault your daddy didn't pay enough attention to you.
20. My Comfort Comes Before Anyone Else’s
Yes, women are always giving up their seats for men.
21. I Have Significantly Less Sexual Liability
Indeed. Thank God men can have abortions and unilaterally put their children for adoption and not have to pay maintenance for twenty years because someone else unilaterally decided to.
23. I’m Not Subject to ‘Soft’ Sexism
Making a coffee in the office is the least you can do, given you're expecting us to act as beasts of burden, the moment there's anything even vaguely to be carried.
25. I Can Say the Most Ridiculous Things Imaginable
Well, you answered this one yourself.
I really hope you were being ironic.This is very interesting.
Sure, as long as we're willing to also see sites like Storm Front as nothing more than entertainment too.Should articles, like those on "Everyday Feminism", be seen as anything other than entertainment?0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mzYKWDx6YI
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