Bus Strike (read warning in post #1)

Stevek101

dublindiehard wrote: »

So you agree that DB staff are on approx 40k for a full 5 day week before overtime and other perks apart from shift allowance are included?

6k more than the average industrial wage from the other link you posted?

Average wage company wide in 2013 was over 46,000.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/PageFiles/2430/2013EnglishAnnualReport.pdf

That will increase this year as the cost cutting plan ceases that combined with NBRU looking for wage increases. We might get close to Luxembourg levels of pay soon enough. Funny that London wages fair well on that international analysis on the above link.

end of the road wrote: »

is there anywhere in the world where transport fares go down rather then up? is there anywhere apart from ireland where the subsidy has been continuously cut meaning the passenger will have to make up the shortfall and would do so whatever the drivers were payed?

In Estonia public transport is now free for locals.

end of the road

dublindiehard wrote: »

So you agree that DB staff are on approx 40k for a full 5 day week before overtime and other perks apart from shift allowance are included?

6k more than the average industrial wage from the other link you posted?

no, from my reading all those are included in that 40k

antoinolachtnai

It does appear from the DB annual report that the average salary for the whole organization is

147,241,000 euros / 3172 employees

= 46,418 euros / employee

Employees' PRSI is seemingly listed separately as 'Social Welfare Costs'

(page 31, http://www.dublinbus.ie/PageFiles/2430/2013EnglishAnnualReport.pdf)

Stevek101

It is a fact that Dublin Bus drivers are in the top two of highest paid in Europe along with a wage well above that of the average industrial wage here in Ireland. Anyone saying anything different is telling serious untruths.

Alun

Using a simple average for something that doesn't follow a normal distribution like wages in an organisation can be misleading. The median would be more relevant here.

dublindiehard

end of the road wrote: »

no, from my reading all those are included in that 40k

No, it says including shift.

Therefore we can only assume it includes that.

There is no way that overtime can be factored into advertised salaary because it is not constant and cannot be guranteed and job ads generally only show money that you will get for sure for salary and if there are conditions they are stated.

dublindiehard

Alun wrote: »

Using a simple average for something that doesn't follow a normal distribution like wages in an organisation can be misleading. The median would be more relevant here.

The reason people often quote the average, is because it is a verifiable figure in audited accounts therefore is known to be true, even if it is not perfect way to calculate.

dublindiehard

end of the road wrote: »

is there anywhere in the world where transport fares go down rather then up? is there anywhere apart from ireland where the subsidy has been continuously cut meaning the passenger will have to make up the shortfall and would do so whatever the drivers were payed?

Increased wages = higher costs

higher costs = more revenue required to cover shortfall

Basic economics.

Subisdy has been cut, but then again the number of buses operated has also been cut.

woodrow wyatt

dublindiehard wrote: »

So you agree that DB staff are on approx 40k for a full 5 day week before overtime and other perks apart from shift allowance are included?

6k more than the average industrial wage from the other link you posted?

I have two drivers sitting right in front of me right now and am showing them this discussion. to be honest that are a little bewildered at the attitude of some of the posts, none the less they are explaining things to me.
As the wages on the DB website
€769.74 a week max when you work Sunday.
Work 2 Sundays out of 5.
They get about €100 extra for working aSunday.
We shall use K.I.S.S here so 20 weeks a year at €769.74 and the rest at the rate of pay minus Sunday premium.
20 x €769.74=15,394.80
32 x €669.74=21,431.68
for a combined total of €36,826.48
Far from the €50k+ some claim here.

cdebru

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

It does appear from the DB annual report that the average salary for the whole organization is

147,241,000 euros / 3172 employees

= 46,418 euros / employee

Employees' PRSI is seemingly listed separately as 'Social Welfare Costs'

(page 31, http://www.dublinbus.ie/PageFiles/2430/2013EnglishAnnualReport.pdf)

Average is a useless statistic the rates of pay for Dublin Bus drivers are published on their own website in the ad looking for drivers. that is the maximum figure you can earn for working a shift pattern 5 days a week including 2 sundays out of 5, some drivers don't work any Sundays so their pay would be approx €2000 less per year, the average pay rate for the entire company does not reflect average driver pay and it is a ridiculous slant to try and paint it as average driver wages, it includes 1000 employees who aren't drivers the majority of whom are on higher wage rates than Drivers including inspectors, chief inspectors, depot manager, admin managers, area managers, head office, executives, clerical, mechanics, etc etc

It should also be noted that the 48 hour maximum working week applies in DB so 46k would be about the maximum anyone could earn IF they worked all the overtime they were allowed and it was always available, the vast majority of DB drivers do little to any overtime so they earn the basic rates as published on the DB website.

antoinolachtnai

1000 non-driving employees to operate a fleet of 900-odd fairly new buses seems like an awful lot.

dublindiehard

Last accounts are 3172 employees.

cdebru

Stevek101 wrote: »

It is a fact that Dublin Bus drivers are in the top two of highest paid in Europe along with a wage well above that of the average industrial wage here in Ireland. Anyone saying anything different is telling serious untruths.

No basic salary is about 31.5 to 32k there is a shift allowance for working shifts which brings it up to about 36k, then if you work sundays its about another 2k/2.5k, but basic pay is below the average industrial wage which doesn't include shift allowance as basic pay, Irish pay rates were roughly the same as the UK before the recession when the euro was about 1.50 to 1, QE reduced the exchange rate on Sterling thats the difference.
We also have the 3rd highest minimum wage rate in the EU, there are reasons for that it is not just that our government is mightily generous is setting the minimum wage, our social welfare rates are also among the highest, etc etc it is not just bus drivers wages that are higher, go and have a look at the average wage rate for your own job and then come back and tell us are you overpaid ?

Stevek101

cdebru wrote: »

No basic salary is about 31.5 to 32k there is a shift allowance for working shifts which brings it up to about 36k, then if you work sundays its about another 2k/2.5k, but basic pay is below the average industrial wage which doesn't include shift allowance as basic pay, Irish pay rates were roughly the same as the UK before the recession when the euro was about 1.50 to 1, QE reduced the exchange rate on Sterling thats the difference.
We also have the 3rd highest minimum wage rate in the EU, there are reasons for that it is not just that our government is mightily generous is setting the minimum wage, our social welfare rates are also among the highest, etc etc it is not just bus drivers wages that are higher, go and have a look at the average wage rate for your own job and then come back and tell us are you overpaid ?

So the new part time drivers are better paid?

woodrow wyatt

Stevek101 wrote: »

In Estonia public transport is now free for locals.

Nothing is free.
“It is easier to waiver the ticket revenue if there’s already a large subsidy,” Aas says. “The subsidy part used to be 70 percent in Tallinn. Now it’s 96 percent.”

http://citiscope.org/story/2014/free-public-transit-tallinn-hit-riders-yields-unexpected-results

cdebru

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

1000 non-driving employees to operate a fleet of 900-odd fairly new buses seems like an awful lot.

Do we have to do this every time ?

1000, between 9 or 10 locations, some working shifts etc etc etc it is not that much when you break it down between all the grades and have staff like maintenance personnel who are working shifts over 24 hours 7 days a week.

dublindiehard

So there are only twice as many drivers as other staff?

cdebru

n97 mini wrote: »

Can you provide a link about drivers' pay?

We seem to have a lot of "it's 30/31k because I said so" but no links to DB/BE or union websites to back up historical (higher) rates?

http://www.dublinbus.ie/human-resources/

cdebru

dublindiehard wrote: »

So there are only twice as many drivers as other staff?

Roughly yes about 2200 drivers out of 3100 staff in total

end of the road

dublindiehard wrote: »

Increased wages = higher costs

higher costs = more revenue required to cover shortfall

Basic economics.

Subisdy has been cut, but then again the number of buses operated has also been cut.

so if wages come down so will fares? don't think so.

cdebru

Stevek101 wrote: »

So the new part time drivers are better paid?

how do you make that out of what I said ?

New drivers are on a 4 year scale after 4 years they will be paid the same as everyone else. They start on a 4 day week, then they move to a 5 day week as space provides, after 4 years they will earn on average including shift allowance and if they work Sundays 769 a week as per the ad on the DB website, if they don't work shifts their pay would be around 31k a year.

end of the road

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

1000 non-driving employees to operate a fleet of 900-odd fairly new buses seems like an awful lot.

well, they can't say "service canceled due to crew unavailability/staff shortage at the depot/garage"

monument

Vic_08 wrote: »

.......I won't be holding my breath waiting for thanks or an acknowledgment (from you or devnull or bk or n97mini or any of the other regulars who flood this forum with a pre-formed agenda bashing CIE employees) that the actual rates are in fact not consistent with the OTT Bullsht constantly spouted about CIE drivers being on huge inflated salaries.

I may as well delete that post entirely because as usual here accurate facts are neither wanted or respected, only biased nonsense, bullsht pub talk, snide swipes at "the other side" and combing through posts to try and find a small nugget that can be jumped on to score a point against the enemy.

Please read the charter before posting again, this section of your post goes against the rules of playing the man rather than the ball / focusing on the poster rather than the post, and posting constructively (getting into why your post is pointless because nobody will listen to you is not constructive at all and off-topic too).

-- moderator

Vic_08

monument wrote: »

Please read the charter before posting again, this section of your post goes against the rules of playing the man rather than the ball / focusing on the poster rather than the post,

But continuing to post falsehoods and inferring that those of us who have said differently are liars is just fine? :rolleyes:

monument wrote: »

and posting constructively (getting into why your post is pointless because nobody will listen to you is not constructive at all and off-topic too).

No? Turned out to be 100% correct though, didn't it.

Anyway thank you for confirming my decision from last year to stop posting altogether on this board.

cdebru, you are wasting your time. You can explain it 100 different times in 100 different ways and it won't matter a jot. The evil unionised workers are enemy #1 and that is that, without us Ireland would be a rosy paradise with free public transport for all run by shiny happy private sector employees grateful to recieve a nod from Mr Commuter and a boiled sweet from the granny in lieu of an actual wage for the privilege of being allowed to drive them around the country.

n97 mini

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

Was not hard to find, but some here want to push the €50k+ lie.
http://www.dublinbus.ie/human-resources/

Eh, I said historical. No-one is disputing the new rates are lower. You still haven't provided any evidence to back up your claims.

Icepick

cdebru wrote: »

Roughly yes about 2200 drivers out of 3100 staff in total

wtf are the 900 people doing?
Some management, admin, mechanics, etc .. but 900?

cdebru

n97 mini wrote: »

Eh, I said historical. No-one is disputing the new rates are lower. You still haven't provided any evidence to back up your claims.

There are no new rates there is a 4 year scale after 4 years everyone is on the same wage, there are only 2 historical pay costs one is pre 1973 given that is 42 years ago I doubt it affects many if any the second is a pre 87 payment which off the top of my head is 10 or €15a week , Alek would probably know but that is only paid to those employed before 1987 which is 28 years ago so I dont know how would be getting that but it is a small and dwindling number, ( also those payments are standalone, they do not affect overtime rates or any other payments and they are frozen at whatever rate was agreed at the time 1973 or 1987 converted to euro)

There is also a service payment which is 65 cents per week after 10 years and 1 euro 27 cents per week after 15 years service, that's it other than those there is no payment difference between someone who started in 1988 and someone who started last week once they reach the top of the scale after 4 years.

cdebru

Icepick wrote: »

wtf are the 900 people doing?
Some management, admin, mechanics, etc .. but 900?

170 inspectors, 20 chief inspectors, mechanics, other maintenance staff painters, body work, tyres, cleaners, bus stop maintenance, canteen staff, lost property, internal post, clerical staff, management, executives, etc when you add it up and divide it 9 garages, plus head office, then you have to take into account that some of those are working shifts its not that much tbh.

cdebru

Vic_08 wrote: »

But continuing to post falsehoods and inferring that those of us who have said differently are liars is just fine? :rolleyes:




No? Turned out to be 100% correct though, didn't it.

Anyway thank you for confirming my decision from last year to stop posting altogether on this board.

cdebru, you are wasting your time. You can explain it 100 different times in 100 different ways and it won't matter a jot. The evil unionised workers are enemy #1 and that is that, without us Ireland would be a rosy paradise with free public transport for all run by shiny happy private sector employees grateful to recieve a nod from Mr Commuter and a boiled sweet from the granny in lieu of an actual wage for the privilege of being allowed to drive them around the country.

I know but the alternative is just letting people post nonsense, and others just believing it because they read it somewhere, people turn up here with these bogus statistics, that just dont stand up to even minor scrutiny, like the nonsense about cost per kilometer being 50% less simple maths says impossible even if you paid minimum wage you couldn't do it, but unless someone points it out he would still be here posting that.

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

Eh, I said historical. No-one is disputing the new rates are lower. You still haven't provided any evidence to back up your claims.

he did. plenty of it