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Bus Strike (read warning in post #1)
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woodrow wyatt wrote: »So why did you state earlier that you wanted to get a job with BE?
If the private sector was/is so good to you why did you want to work for BE?
See my other response. I don't see any issue with regretting not pursuing the chance. At the time I wasn't thinking long term, tips on tour work were massive and I wanted variety. Global recession, little or no tips, 2 kids and a house later I see I would have been better on repetitive service work on a great package. That's life, live with it, I happily do.0 -
Neither Irish Ferries or Irish Water were involved a competitive tendering process which may or may not result in the transition of service provision from a state owned company to a third party.
They are as irrelevant as each other.
yes, both irish ferries and irish water are irrelevant. greyhound on the other hand, is relevant.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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currins_02 wrote: »
2. The packages enjoyed by BE staff have been widely published all over the press, net, boards etc. I'll let you go check it out. Basically unions and staff argue a basic average package in the late 30k's (form memory something around €36k-€38k) while other people add in the accrued bonuses, allowances etc and come up with an average driver grade package of between €48k and €53k from memory.
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This part of your post jumps out.
Unions and drivers say wage is €36k-€38k, but you prefer to believe unknown sources who claim between €48k and €53k. This claim is backed up with nothing.
How can anyone take the rest of your post serious?
You come across like you have some hidden agenda, don't be posting what a man in the pub told you, post what is know to be true back up with proof.0 -
end of the road wrote: »yes, both irish ferries and irish water are irrelevant. greyhound on the other hand, is relevant.
Great, we agree that one of cdebru's examples is irrelevant. Regarding Greyhound, you might need to educate me. Did GH win a competitive tendering process, and then did employees of a former state owned company then transfer to GH? If so then I'll accept it's a fair comparison.0 -
woodrow wyatt wrote: »Unions and drivers say wage is €36k-€38k,
Did they back that up? Did you back that up? This claim is backed up with nothing. How can anyone take the rest of your post serious?0 -
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woodrow wyatt wrote: »This part of your post jumps out.
Unions and drivers say wage is €36k-€38k, but you prefer to believe unknown sources who claim between €48k and €53k. This claim is backed up with nothing.
How can anyone take the rest of your post serious?
You come across like you have some hidden agenda, don't be posting what a man in the pub told you, post what is know to be true back up with proof.
No the agenda here is to discredit my posts. OK the Mazars report in 2011 put the average combined driver package at €51,612, other reports put it slightly higher and lower. Unions sources put it back down in the lower bracket. We can put an endless list of figures here but I can confidently say they will be in those brackets. Contexts have to be applied, Mazars was CTTC commissioned so was always going to go for gross package, union want to downplay so go for base.
For your info I don't drink so don't know what the man down the pub says.
How about now you start disproving my post (you've already tried misquoting and discrediting) - why not post some evidence to disprove it?
Tell me again about how I originally referenced "amazing" packages or health packages.0 -
I should have said also during last strike former NBRU head man on various broadcast media would not engage on gross package (claiming bonuses and allowances should not be included) but kept coming back to average base package in mid-late 30's0
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end of the road wrote: »what "market rate" they have everything to fear, otherwise there wouldn't be an issue. they aren't "overpayed" our costs of living are high because they are, they would be regardless of how good the public sector would be.
are you going to even try and support your view with any kind of figures etc, or is it just fingers in your ears and "NO, I'M RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG. SO THERE!!"0 -
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currins_02 wrote: »I should have said also during last strike former NBRU head man on various broadcast media would not engage on gross package (claiming bonuses and allowances should not be included) but kept coming back to average base package in mid-late 30's
Dodgy post from you now confirmed.
Dublin bus are hiring and the pay details are on their web site.
"Salaries begin at €565.95 per week (4-day week inclusive of shift), increasing to €769.74 (5-day week inclusive of shift)"
No where near the €50k+ you claim.So what is your agenda and that of those who rush to thank and support your posts?
If you where a bus driver you would want BE/DB wages to be as high as possible, a rising tide lifts all boats, you would end up better paid as well. But here you are advocating a pay cut for them, very dodgy position to take, unless you have a hidden agenda.
When Henry Ford doubled the wages of his workers the other car manufactures had to do the same or they would have lost staff. The same idea applies to BE/DB unless of course you have a agenda.0 -
woodrow wyatt wrote: »Dodgy post from you now confirmed.
Dublin bus are hiring and the pay details are on their web site.
"Salaries begin at €565.95 per week (4-day week inclusive of shift), increasing to €769.74 (5-day week inclusive of shift)"
No where near the €50k+ you claim.So what is your agenda and that of those who rush to thank and support your posts?
If you where a bus driver you would want BE/DB wages to be as high as possible, a rising tide lifts all boats, you would end up better paid as well. But here you are advocating a pay cut for them, very dodgy position to take, unless you have a hidden agenda.
When Henry Ford doubled the wages of his workers the other car manufactures had to do the same or they would have lost staff. The same idea applies to BE/DB unless of course you have a agenda.
Ok we'll keep this simple as you are obviously having some issues. The dodgy posts are all coming from you, in that time you have misquoted and misread all of my posts.
I started posting in this thread at post #85, can you (please), point out where I have advocated a pay cut?
The main thrust of my posts, I think, has been fairly consistent, there has been a theme from the start of this thread that all privates underpay, overwork and abuse their staff that is simply untrue.
Equally, as is my prerogative, I said that if I had my life again I would pursue a chance I had to enter BE which I chose not to at the time. I based this on combined pay and conditions. Mainly conditions. I justified that to you above.
Finally, as I am sure you are are fully aware new recruits into the state companies are now on drastically reduced packages compared with those pre the public service moratorium. The package is more in line with national and international industry standards and pension is also greatly reduced. Incumbent staff were employed on different terms. But you knew that anyway.
Again, have a deep breath, read my posts SLOWLY and then comment on what I said, not something I either didn't say at all or you have entirely misquoted.
BTW what CIE pay has little or no relationship to private sector in terms of if CIE goes up the rest will go up etc. That is not the case. The main thing which will drive rates in the private sector is the growing shortage of drivers that is attributed to many things such as complex process to obtain a licence, perception of low pay, perception of anti social work, lack of promotional options etc. Such is the current shortage of good coach drivers at the minute in the private sector that most tour companies are paying between 10-15% more to drivers than for the season in 2014. This is due to the shortage couple with massive growth in bookings (due to weak Euro and general global up lift). Equally in one highly competitive city there are rumours one private service operator is offering €15 per day on top of whatever current pay is to try and poach drivers from their opposition. What CIE do is largely irrelevant. In the private sector we (drivers that is) still have to clean, fuel etc our own vehicles to a high standard whereas that is generally not expected in CIE, things like that make it attractive to the likes of me, that's not a sin just my perogative. No agenda - I'm just saying. Read this article and follow up on the source to see details of the perceived shortages - http://www.fleet.ie/breaking-news/skilled-employees-needed-transport-logistics-sectors-grow/
Again reference to where in this thread I called for a pay cut would be appreciated (and if I did I apologise as I certainly don't think I did not sought to)0 -
woodrow wyatt wrote: »Dodgy post from you now confirmed.
Dublin bus are hiring and the pay details are on their web site.
"Salaries begin at €565.95 per week (4-day week inclusive of shift), increasing to €769.74 (5-day week inclusive of shift)"
Of course the new staff are being paid less than the old staff, nobody is talking aobut recent recruits, we are talking about the vast majority of staff who have been there from before the new starting rates brought in during the last 12 months.
Indeed in a recent labour court hearing in the last few years didn't the unions and the company state that new recruits would be on a different scale?No where near the €50k+ you claim.So what is your agenda and that of those who rush to thank and support your posts?
My agenda is for a public transport system where the public come first.
What's yours?If you where a bus driver you would want BE/DB wages to be as high as possible, a rising tide lifts all boats, you would end up better paid as well. But here you are advocating a pay cut for them, very dodgy position to take, unless you have a hidden agenda.
I get a funny feeling that you have no idea what the difference is between a public company and a commercial company.
Since in case you didn't realise, the higher the wages are, the more taxpayer subsidy is needed. You clearly have zero clue when it comes to running a business or economics, and the above posters never asked for a pay cat, but you continue to put words in his/her mouth.
I want the best and most public efficent transport system possible for what is a public service. If that is deemed as being a hidden agenda, it explains a lot about why public services in this country are in the state they are in.0 -
Vic08, points taken and appreciated. I apologise is my post inferred anything other than what was meant. That being, I am VERY CONFIDENT unions, drivers etc will quote figures in mid to high €30ks, equally I am VERY CONFIDENT private sector spokespeople, crtics and many analysts will quote the higher figures.
Also, on a tangent, I queried my Sinn Fein TD on the "average industrial wage" which they claim is around €36-€39k, some sources quote up to early €40ks but the body who traditionally issued it (CSO) have stopped doing so on the basis that the dynamic of what we might term "industrial" workers has changed dramatically since the stats started. For instance, if the thousands employed in retail are looked at in isolation (way more than employed in transport) then their figure is close to high€20k's - no where near this notional "average industrial" figure of 40 odd thousand. They recommend now each industry should be analysed on it's own. In the UK, according to many sources the average pay for bus/coach drivers is around STG£20-£25k (approx €28-€35k based on current exceptionally high exchange rate) (see:http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/davehillblog/2015/jan/13/londons-bus-drivers-deserve-a-better-deal) , that said Lothian in Scotland in particular pay a bit more towards £30k. The fact of the matter is the figures we are quoting are all "averages", by definition some are getting less, some are getting the figure and some are getting more.
I would also say that there is a valid argument that the union agenda is equally as "ridiculously biased" as that of the likes of the CTTC when you are external to that agenda. I would like to state that in my mind both stand points are credible to those affected but must be viewed with the context of who is talking at a particular time.
The likes of Mazars/CTTC (not nor never have endorsing just referring to) claim that their figures come from sources such as company reports, P60 figures (total taxable earnings), ministerial questions etc. Equally drivers, like your self, or unions will quote figures with some authority from your side.
The lunch reference by me was frivolous which is accepted. My point is, I have a very good associate who is a BE Expressway driver, "country" based on a certain board. He loves when on a certain duty as he boasts he makes €3 profit out of lunch - how? Well he gets his lunch allowance plus there is a subsidised canteen, when he pays for a full lunch out of his allowance at the subsidised rate he has €3 left. That's great and good luck to him (and others who get it) I would say that I have no issue with paying 1 or the other but I do think in terms of cost base they should not pay both if someone can avail of one or the other. I don't begrudge it, if I was getting it, I would take it, I'm merely stating it doesn't make sense commercially or in terms of cost base to pay both - not condemning it.
Regarding breaks away from base, I believe that point is irrelevant as it is part of the industry. The nature of driving, whether it be carts, vans, trucks or buses is you will be travelling. The nature of LPSV driving is bringing people to places and quick turnarounds are unlikely. It is not unique to CIE and applies to the industry as a whole.
As I say, I take your points, accept them with context and repeat the only thing I was trying to "confidently say" was that the opposing sides in this will quote figures in those 2 brackets.0 -
A rising tide lifts all boats?
Who cares about the taxpayer and the people who actually use the service? Lets just screw them all over with higher fares and higher taxes to pay for the wages.
Since after all, who'd have thought the public should be the most important in a public service? Long as we get paid enough money, who cares about the people were supposed to servde.
It's astounding that CIE employees continue to see the companies as a jobs club, to extract as much money as they can, and think the public service part and serving the public is just an inconvinence that gets in the way of their quest.0 -
currins_02 wrote: »Nothing at all dodgy in my posts and I stand over everything I posted. We're allowed diverse opinions and mine are based on over 14years bus/coach driving/management experience.
To make things easy and takes your points as stated:
1. I have made a decent living in the private side of the industry, I own my house, run a good car, have wife and 2 kids, annual hols etc. Why would I move (as they say if I knew then what I know now!) try these for size:
- Just drive, no need to clean windows, lift rubbish, sweep floors, mop floors, polish floors, clean jacks, wash/wax/polish outside coach, scrub wheels clean etc. Do I mind doing those jobs now, not really, would I like to not have to do them yes of course
- Pension, it is fully accepted that new entrants in recent years have a reduced pension entitlement but approx 8-9 years ago when recruitment was open and I chose not to apply it was the full pension. While happy in my nappy now age and maturity has made me think of such menial things, is that in some way dodgy?
- Being on a "board", if on a "board" BE drivers know weeks if not months in advance exactly what they are doing, I generally know roughly 1 week ahead, would I like the extra heads up, yes, does it mean I should jack my current work, absolutely not
- Training perks, there is no legal obligation on employers to pay for training such as Driver CPC (morally I don't agree but that is the case - I have checked legally and with RSA), in BE not alone is the training paid for but a full shift is paid and a full dinner provided - would I prefer that to paying €50 a year and getting my own lunch? BE is the only coach operator I know of in UK or Ireland being so generous, some may pay for the course OR the lunch but no other pays course, full shift pay and a slap up lunch. Also can do further training
- Promotional structure, Having been around the private industry I relaise it runs with far less admin, management or supervisory type folk. BE is coming down with them. As such there are more opportunities to get promoted. I have limited management experience, assist in the office during quiet times and have managed large movements of people but the chance to get a full time promotion are limited due to less of that grade of staff. Is it a sin to be ambitious? Does it make me want to jack up in protest - no I like my job but would like more opportunity for promotion - maybe if privates win some tenders I will get that chance but again will always be less than BE as won't have as many "caps" or "half caps" etc
..... I can go on
2. The packages enjoyed by BE staff have been widely published all over the press, net, boards etc. I'll let you go check it out. Basically unions and staff argue a basic average package in the late 30k's (form memory something around €36k-€38k) while other people add in the accrued bonuses, allowances etc and come up with an average driver grade package of between €48k and €53k from memory. I didn't say the packages were "amazing", you did. I believe the average total accrued coach driver package in UK is around STG£27k which is currently mid to low €30's in terms when converted. There were, for instance (and this was widely published) annual & monthly bonuses for not crashing or damaging vehicles, 100% of eligible staff got it yet mysteriously a lot of coaches damaged?! Staff who can't return to depot get a lunch allowance, meanwhile in some areas they also have a heavily subsidised canteen, so get a lunch allowance and a subsidised canteen - I have to bring a lunch box!! I don't begrudge it, good luck to those getting it, am I jealous (that's entirely different to begrudgery) - yes, do I think it is sustainable and makes company competitive in a tender environment - no
3. Who mentioned "health packages" - allow staff do enjoy subsidised company docs and good health benefits - I certainly didn't. My comparison was with overall pay packages. Many nurses on packages of under €30k (despite years of training, the obvious occupational hazards etc) while junior doctors start in mid €30's and are typically working 80 hour weeks. How does that compare with the hours worked and pay (either the bare wage union figure or more realistic total package figure) of BE staff?
Nothing dodgy just my views.
There is something dodgy, while you attempt to inflate drivers wages, you attempt to limit "nurses and doctors" and your statements are very misleading to say the least, a so called junior doctor is an intern doctor and starts on a scale of around 38k, but as an example here is a journal article stating junior doctors pay to be cut from 60k to 50k so the 38k is a first year intern just finished medical school , and the average overtime payment for a junior doctor is 31k with some poor guy earning upto 153k just in overtime, a similar thing was recently implemented for newly qualified nursed which gives them a first year 23k this is for max 2 years after qualifying and then they are on the registered nurse scale which goes up to 43k a year a specialist nurse would be on a higher scale topping out in the 50k range.
DB drivers pay including shift and Sunday payments would be about 38/39 k at the top of the scale, basic pay is around 30/31k a year
DB drivers get a safe driving bonus of €250 a year if they qualify.
http://www.thejournal.ie/cork-salary-doctors-changed-july-1831119-Dec2014/
http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=212950 -
dublindiehard wrote: »Of course the new staff are being paid less than the old staff, nobody is talking aobut recent recruits, we are talking about the vast majority of staff who have been there from before the new starting rates brought in during the last 12 months.
Indeed in a recent labour court hearing in the last few years didn't the unions and the company state that new recruits would be on a different scale?
My agenda is for a public transport system where the public come first.
What's yours?
I get a funny feeling that you have no idea what the difference is between a public company and a commercial company.
Since in case you didn't realise, the higher the wages are, the more taxpayer subsidy is needed. You clearly have zero clue when it comes to running a business or economics, and the above posters never asked for a pay cat, but you continue to put words in his/her mouth.
I want the best and most public efficent transport system possible for what is a public service. If that is deemed as being a hidden agenda, it explains a lot about why public services in this country are in the state they are in.
Its a scale a new driver starting to day is on the same scale as a driver who started 20 years ago, after 4 years they will both be earning the same which is the top of the scale published on the DB website which includes shift allowance and working 2 Sundays out of 50 -
I would imagine that the €50k figure quoted above was the gross cost to the employer, in other words it included employer PRSI, employer pension contributions etc.
That's totally different to what most people would consider as their gross salary.
People need to be very careful about quoting wage figures and need to distinguish between these two, as they are completely different figures and can lead to some very misleading interpretations.
I have to say again that I don't think it really is appropriate to be discussing individual pay and conditions on a line by line basis on a public website.
That's a matter between an employee and their employer.0 -
DB drivers pay including shift and Sunday payments would be about 38/39 k at the top of the scale, basic pay is around 30/31k a year
DB drivers get a safe driving bonus of €250 a year if they qualify.
http://www.thejournal.ie/cork-salary-doctors-changed-july-1831119-Dec2014/
http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=21295
Can you provide a link about drivers' pay?
We seem to have a lot of "it's 30/31k because I said so" but no links to DB/BE or union websites to back up historical (higher) rates?0 -
What's the over time rates for the night link service
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There is something dodgy, while you attempt to inflate drivers wages, you attempt to limit "nurses and doctors" and your statements are very misleading to say the least, a so called junior doctor is an intern doctor and starts on a scale of around 38k, but as an example here is a journal article stating junior doctors pay to be cut from 60k to 50k so the 38k is a first year intern just finished medical school , and the average overtime payment for a junior doctor is 31k with some poor guy earning upto 153k just in overtime, a similar thing was recently implemented for newly qualified nursed which gives them a first year 23k this is for max 2 years after qualifying and then they are on the registered nurse scale which goes up to 43k a year a specialist nurse would be on a higher scale topping out in the 50k range.
DB drivers pay including shift and Sunday payments would be about 38/39 k at the top of the scale, basic pay is around 30/31k a year
DB drivers get a safe driving bonus of €250 a year if they qualify.
http://www.thejournal.ie/cork-salary-doctors-changed-july-1831119-Dec2014/
http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=21295
I still resent the implication of dodgy - I quoted the bands of figures being quoted by both sides. The reason I kept vague is simple and I pretty much stated that same thing, every source quotes a variant on the figures and it's impossible to get conclusive and that's on both sides. I have seen arguments on the private side quoting over €53k average but I chose to pick the Mazar's one of over €51k as it is fairly significant. Same goes for the lower figures there is a massive variance in what is quoted. The gross wage based on past figures should not, I would say, include employers PRSI etc but should include all other gross pay, salary, overtime, allowances, taxable payments, bonuses etc. The fact is, as far as I am concerned, many CIE/DB/BE drivers do not reach those figures but many more do, and in fact many manage in excess of that. If the figures are being provided by the company, it's annual reports, ministers etc it's hard to argue.
That said, I fully accept many would be based on work, extra work, shifts, overtime etc but that matters not really, that is the same for any industry.
Furthermore my sister is a general nurse in her 3rd year after qualification. She get's approx €28k of a basic in a rural hospital with afew allowances etc a package of around €30k. That hospital has, and has been widely reported in local media, sought to cut out overtime altogther and as such has capped it. That girl and others typically work an extra 10-20 hours per week unpaid but get on with it. She has currently applied for a 457 visa for Australia where she can expect a starting salary of the equivalent of €60k based on her experience. Yes she can go up the scale here is opportunities arise but that's not happening, a senior position in her department is being filled by an agency staff member as for some reason that looks better on the budget than filling the position. Equally she is watching for a suitable position in NI where she would expect around STG£40k base. That is after 5 years study and almost 3 years experience. As a driver I think that's a systemic imbalance which makes no sense in terms of the skills needed, work endured, responsibility etc and that's my opinion. This is a loose one but my brother-in-laws fiance qualified from UCG last summer as a doctor, currently on placement in a well known Irish hospital and is getting around €38k, overtime is expected but as they are (yes probably an intern as you describe but still having done 9 years in college - had to do another course to get in as fell short on points - and still doing the work) on placement they get little or no payment for overtime. When placement is complete, if (and that's a helluva if she says) a position comes up yes the money goes up but, as has been widely printed in press, after placement she can get far more money abroad, in NI, UK, USA or Oz for example. Such are things, they are saving for a wedding, she is staying with an aunt to avoid rent. Again, do I think that a driver should be outpaying even a new doc, no I don't. Maybe the answer is to raise the wages in the health sectors my point was purely that compared with other industries the pay is still remarkably good.
Please be aware at no point have I called to pay cuts, and my posts should not be interpreted as such. Having many friends, former colleagues and even some current colleagues who either did or do work in the BE Expressway network especially I am under no doubt that, in the past (new entrants on vastly reduced package) it was a very well paid job when all was accrued. I don't begrudge that, I'm just saying as is. The conditions otherwise are unique in the industry internationally too as a whole, yes individual bits may apply but overall CIE/BE/DB are good desirable positions for the industry - simple things like little or no cleaning for the driver, often no need to fuel etc make the job attractive to me. That does not mean I dislike my job, just saying those conditions are attractive.
I think I'll withdraw from the discussion with all due respect as in an effort to point out that I admire the packages enjoyed but, that said, staff in the private sector are not all underpayed, overworked or abused - far from it, my posts are getting twisted and misinterpreted (maybe I worded some wrong). That is not what I sought, nor did I seek to be seen to be calling for wage cuts or similar. The basis could be summed up as pay and conditions were traditionally remarkably good (we'll keep it at that) in the semi state companies but it is untrue and unfair to infer in any way that all privates will drag drivers to the ground in terms of pay & conditions.0 -
dublindiehard wrote: »A rising tide lifts all boats?
Who cares about the taxpayer and the people who actually use the service? Lets just screw them all over with higher fares and higher taxes to pay for the wages.
Since after all, who'd have thought the public should be the most important in a public service? Long as we get paid enough money, who cares about the people were supposed to servde.
It's astounding that CIE employees continue to see the companies as a jobs club, to extract as much money as they can, and think the public service part and serving the public is just an inconvinence that gets in the way of their quest.
I'll think you'll find most people in every sector are only interested in how much money they can get for doing their job. Otherwise they would do it for free.
This isn't unique to CIE employees.0 -
The same could be argued about the unions figures and claims though, since obviously they as a group also have a ridiculously biased agenda.
Well no devnull. IN FACT it couldn't be argued about the unions because as I outlined in detail their figure was IN FACT quite accurate for the ACTUAL total gross pay of a driver including all normal bonuses with minimal overtime.
I also explained the ways drivers could get closer to the "high" figures people like yourselves love to throw around as an argument that we are all grossly overpayed. That being in the main working longer hours and 6 day weeks.
I am not a particular fan of the CIE unions and I don't doubt that they are not above using misleading stats when it suits them but in this case they did not. Sadly instead of either agreeing to that fact or not mentioning it you decided that the only part of my post that was of merit was one line you could twist a reference out of to sling mud at one of your pet targets. If you actually read my post I did not in fact make any mention of whom I was referring to as having an biased agenda, it happened to be the CTTC report that was way out in it's figures but hey why deal with the facts when you can find something to score a point for your side with. BTW is anybody actually keeping score? Does anyone even know which side is winning?Can you provide a link about drivers' pay?
We seem to have a lot of "it's 30/31k because I said so" but no links to DB/BE or union websites to back up historical (higher) rates?
I outlined in some detail the pay. But I guess as it didn't fit your position you ignored it. You did manage to give thanks to the one reply that tried to score a stupid point based on the one sentence in my post that was not directly describing the ACTUAL pay.Cookie_Monster wrote: »are you going to even try and support your view with any kind of figures etc, or is it just fingers in your ears and "NO, I'M RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG. SO THERE!!"
There you go, a comprehensive explanation of the pay rates for you.
I won't be holding my breath waiting for thanks or an acknowledgment (from you or devnull or bk or n97mini or any of the other regulars who flood this forum with a pre-formed agenda bashing CIE employees) that the actual rates are in fact not consistent with the OTT Bullsht constantly spouted about CIE drivers being on huge inflated salaries.
I may as well delete that post entirely because as usual here accurate facts are neither wanted or respected, only biased nonsense, bullsht pub talk, snide swipes at "the other side" and combing through posts to try and find a small nugget that can be jumped on to score a point against the enemy.0 -
currins_02 wrote: »BTW what CIE pay has little or no relationship to private sector in terms of if CIE goes up the rest will go up etc. That is not the case. The main thing which will drive rates in the private sector is the growing shortage of drivers that is attributed to many things such as complex process to obtain a licence, perception of low pay, perception of anti social work, lack of promotional options etc. Such is the current shortage of good coach drivers at the minute in the private sector that most tour companies are paying between 10-15% more to drivers than for the season in 2014. This is due to the shortage couple with massive growth in bookings (due to weak Euro and general global up lift). Equally in one highly competitive city there are rumours one private service operator is offering €15 per day on top of whatever current pay is to try and poach drivers from their opposition. What CIE do is largely irrelevant. In the private sector we (drivers that is) still have to clean, fuel etc our own vehicles to a high standard whereas that is generally not expected in CIE, things like that make it attractive to the likes of me, that's not a sin just my perogative. No agenda - I'm just saying. Read this article and follow up on the source to see details of the perceived shortages - http://www.fleet.ie/breaking-news/skilled-employees-needed-transport-logistics-sectors-grow/
Again reference to where in this thread I called for a pay cut would be appreciated (and if I did I apologise as I certainly don't think I did not sought to)
Well dodgy, your link is about freight haulage and nothing to do with BE/DB.
You say bus companies are paying 10-15% more for drivers and also some are giving a €15 a day bonus to drivers, does this not mean they are underpaid and the companies have to offer more to get workers?
So basically BE/DB pay the going rate at the moment in Ireland but you think it is too much?
Then the coup de grace to your credibility, you post about the weakness of the €?
What the hell has that got to do with tendering? Unless you are not in the republic and are concerned with the sterling exchange rate.
If i was to have a stab in the dark i would say you are possible management in a UK based bus company looking to paint the BE/DB workers as overpaid, i guess we will never know.0 -
currins_02 wrote: »Vic08, points taken and appreciated. I apologise is my post inferred anything other than what was meant. That being, I am VERY CONFIDENT unions, drivers etc will quote figures in mid to high €30ks, equally I am VERY CONFIDENT private sector spokespeople, crtics and many analysts will quote the higher figures.
Also, on a tangent, I queried my Sinn Fein TD on the "average industrial wage" which they claim is around €36-€39k, some sources quote up to early €40ks but the body who traditionally issued it (CSO) have stopped doing so on the basis that the dynamic of what we might term "industrial" workers has changed dramatically since the stats started. For instance, if the thousands employed in retail are looked at in isolation (way more than employed in transport) then their figure is close to high€20k's - no where near this notional "average industrial" figure of 40 odd thousand. They recommend now each industry should be analysed on it's own. In the UK, according to many sources the average pay for bus/coach drivers is around STG£20-£25k (approx €28-€35k based on current exceptionally high exchange rate) (see:http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/davehillblog/2015/jan/13/londons-bus-drivers-deserve-a-better-deal) , that said Lothian in Scotland in particular pay a bit more towards £30k. The fact of the matter is the figures we are quoting are all "averages", by definition some are getting less, some are getting the figure and some are getting more.
I would also say that there is a valid argument that the union agenda is equally as "ridiculously biased" as that of the likes of the CTTC when you are external to that agenda. I would like to state that in my mind both stand points are credible to those affected but must be viewed with the context of who is talking at a particular time.
The likes of Mazars/CTTC (not nor never have endorsing just referring to) claim that their figures come from sources such as company reports, P60 figures (total taxable earnings), ministerial questions etc. Equally drivers, like your self, or unions will quote figures with some authority from your side.
The lunch reference by me was frivolous which is accepted. My point is, I have a very good associate who is a BE Expressway driver, "country" based on a certain board. He loves when on a certain duty as he boasts he makes €3 profit out of lunch - how? Well he gets his lunch allowance plus there is a subsidised canteen, when he pays for a full lunch out of his allowance at the subsidised rate he has €3 left. That's great and good luck to him (and others who get it) I would say that I have no issue with paying 1 or the other but I do think in terms of cost base they should not pay both if someone can avail of one or the other. I don't begrudge it, if I was getting it, I would take it, I'm merely stating it doesn't make sense commercially or in terms of cost base to pay both - not condemning it.
Regarding breaks away from base, I believe that point is irrelevant as it is part of the industry. The nature of driving, whether it be carts, vans, trucks or buses is you will be travelling. The nature of LPSV driving is bringing people to places and quick turnarounds are unlikely. It is not unique to CIE and applies to the industry as a whole.
As I say, I take your points, accept them with context and repeat the only thing I was trying to "confidently say" was that the opposing sides in this will quote figures in those 2 brackets.
you didnt look to hard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage
This post of your drips of management speak, had Two DB drivers in where i work and showed them this post, they had not a clue what the acronyms are that you are using, they immediately thought thats management of a bus company speaking.0 -
Can you provide a link about drivers' pay?
We seem to have a lot of "it's 30/31k because I said so" but no links to DB/BE or union websites to back up historical (higher) rates?
Was not hard to find, but some here want to push the €50k+ lie.
http://www.dublinbus.ie/human-resources/0 -
currins_02 wrote: »I still resent the implication of dodgy - I quoted the bands of figures being quoted by both sides. The reason I kept vague is simple and I pretty much stated that same thing, every source quotes a variant on the figures and it's impossible to get conclusive and that's on both sides. I have seen arguments on the private side quoting over €53k average but I chose to pick the Mazar's one of over €51k as it is fairly significant. Same goes for the lower figures there is a massive variance in what is quoted. The gross wage based on past figures should not, I would say, include employers PRSI etc but should include all other gross pay, salary, overtime, allowances, taxable payments, bonuses etc. The fact is, as far as I am concerned, many CIE/DB/BE drivers do not reach those figures but many more do, and in fact many manage in excess of that. If the figures are being provided by the company, it's annual reports, ministers etc it's hard to argue.
That said, I fully accept many would be based on work, extra work, shifts, overtime etc but that matters not really, that is the same for any industry.
Furthermore my sister is a general nurse in her 3rd year after qualification. She get's approx €28k of a basic in a rural hospital with afew allowances etc a package of around €30k. That hospital has, and has been widely reported in local media, sought to cut out overtime altogther and as such has capped it. That girl and others typically work an extra 10-20 hours per week unpaid but get on with it. She has currently applied for a 457 visa for Australia where she can expect a starting salary of the equivalent of €60k based on her experience. Yes she can go up the scale here is opportunities arise but that's not happening, a senior position in her department is being filled by an agency staff member as for some reason that looks better on the budget than filling the position. Equally she is watching for a suitable position in NI where she would expect around STG£40k base. That is after 5 years study and almost 3 years experience. As a driver I think that's a systemic imbalance which makes no sense in terms of the skills needed, work endured, responsibility etc and that's my opinion. This is a loose one but my brother-in-laws fiance qualified from UCG last summer as a doctor, currently on placement in a well known Irish hospital and is getting around €38k, overtime is expected but as they are (yes probably an intern as you describe but still having done 9 years in college - had to do another course to get in as fell short on points - and still doing the work) on placement they get little or no payment for overtime. When placement is complete, if (and that's a helluva if she says) a position comes up yes the money goes up but, as has been widely printed in press, after placement she can get far more money abroad, in NI, UK, USA or Oz for example. Such are things, they are saving for a wedding, she is staying with an aunt to avoid rent. Again, do I think that a driver should be outpaying even a new doc, no I don't. Maybe the answer is to raise the wages in the health sectors my point was purely that compared with other industries the pay is still remarkably good.
Please be aware at no point have I called to pay cuts, and my posts should not be interpreted as such. Having many friends, former colleagues and even some current colleagues who either did or do work in the BE Expressway network especially I am under no doubt that, in the past (new entrants on vastly reduced package) it was a very well paid job when all was accrued. I don't begrudge that, I'm just saying as is. The conditions otherwise are unique in the industry internationally too as a whole, yes individual bits may apply but overall CIE/BE/DB are good desirable positions for the industry - simple things like little or no cleaning for the driver, often no need to fuel etc make the job attractive to me. That does not mean I dislike my job, just saying those conditions are attractive.
I think I'll withdraw from the discussion with all due respect as in an effort to point out that I admire the packages enjoyed but, that said, staff in the private sector are not all underpayed, overworked or abused - far from it, my posts are getting twisted and misinterpreted (maybe I worded some wrong). That is not what I sought, nor did I seek to be seen to be calling for wage cuts or similar. The basis could be summed up as pay and conditions were traditionally remarkably good (we'll keep it at that) in the semi state companies but it is untrue and unfair to infer in any way that all privates will drag drivers to the ground in terms of pay & conditions.
There is a old saying "If you work for free you will never be without work".
More fool her for working 10-20 hour per week for no pay.0 -
woodrow wyatt wrote: »Was not hard to find, but some here want to push the €50k+ lie.
http://www.dublinbus.ie/human-resources/
Over 40,000 before over time. :pac:
http://www.publicpolicy.ie/dublin-bus-funding-and-financial-performance/
Old but some interesting snippets.0 -
So you agree that DB staff are on approx 40k for a full 5 day week before overtime and other perks apart from shift allowance are included?
6k more than the average industrial wage from the other link you posted?0 -
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is there anywhere in the world where transport fares go down rather then up? is there anywhere apart from ireland where the subsidy has been continuously cut meaning the passenger will have to make up the shortfall and would do so whatever the drivers were payed?dublindiehard wrote: »A rising tide lifts all boats?
Who cares about the taxpayer and the people who actually use the service? Lets just screw them all over with higher fares and higher taxes to pay for the wages.
Since after all, who'd have thought the public should be the most important in a public service? Long as we get paid enough money, who cares about the people were supposed to servde.
It's astounding that CIE employees continue to see the companies as a jobs club, to extract as much money as they can, and think the public service part and serving the public is just an inconvinence that gets in the way of their quest.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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