Bus Strike (read warning in post #1)

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime · 01-04-2015 4:13pm

currins_02 wrote: »

I'm afraid I believe you were lied to then. They did accept pass on many services but can't on others which began after the cap

I simply do not believe nor have any reason to believe they receive any subsidy. Their books were published in the past and displayed no such payment.

Well i heard from the horses mouth but seem people here are stuck in a bubble that private companies are God's gift paying for things from their own pockets.

I'm just going to exclude myself from participating in the thread from here on out

antoinolachtnai · 01-04-2015 4:16pm

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Well i heard from the horses mouth but seem people here are stuck in a bubble that private companies are God's gift paying for things from their own pockets.

Maybe rather than being 'stuck in a bubble' they are actually telling the truth about something they know a lot about? If you have any documentary evidence about these subsidies, I would love to see it (as would the Dublin Bus unions, I am sure).

end of the road · 01-04-2015 4:20pm

Icepick wrote: »

Yes it can.

oh? really? so we don't need this tendering then and we should go the whole way and implement full de-regulation? i mean if they can be completely trusted then what would be the problem with de-regulation?

Icepick wrote: »

If DB drivers are not overpaid, they have nothing to fear because they are irreplaceable.

the amount one is payed in any sector does not mean they have nothing to fear should they have to be transferred to another company. there will always be companies looking to cut terms and conditions to the bare legal.

dublindiehard · 01-04-2015 4:29pm

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Private companies ? Like aircoach ?

They also get a subsidy to run those routes. So yes we are paying for them.

Aircoach is self funded they don't get any subsidy

dublindiehard · 01-04-2015 4:35pm

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

They do and is fact. Their do not accept social welfare passes.

why would they ? They go from leopardstown or killeny to the airport. Most of their buses are fairly empty.

I heard it from aircoach management myself when I was trying to get a job with them. They receive a subsidy /grant from the government to run those services other wise they wouldn't be doing it so often.

The Belfast and cork services are not able to join the free travel scheme

The others are

4 hope you are able to back your claim up else you are playing a very dangerous game

dublindiehard · 01-04-2015 4:37pm

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Well i heard from the horses mouth but seem people here are stuck in a bubble that private companies are God's gift paying for things from their own pockets.

I'm just going to exclude myself from participating in the thread from here on out

Please do

Printing totally fabricated statements does your argument zero favours

I suggest you either put up something to support your allegation or withdraw it.

make statements that are untrue about a company online could land you in hot water

currins_02 · 01-04-2015 4:39pm

Without bashing CIE, I would say the stereo type that all privates abuse staff, underpay them and overwork them is not fair either. As posted earlier I have a combined 14 years in the private sector of this industry and have never worked for minimum wage I feel I earn a more than fair and decent wage, I have worked hard but have never felt abused. I wouldn't stand for that. I am sure there are some rogues out there but having worked for numerous operators any I worked for (small 1 man operations through to some of the countries largest privates) were all fine. Yes I could grumble about some things with them all but equally I know some CIE staff very well and they have plenty grumbles too.

n97 mini · 01-04-2015 4:50pm

cdebru wrote: »

Relevance ?

Same relevance as Greyhound?

end of the road · 01-04-2015 4:55pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Same relevance as Greyhound?

in terms of your post about it no longer being 1913, greyhound is very relevant, and was a wake up call that there can still be problems.

n97 mini · 01-04-2015 5:15pm

Give over will ya. He brought up Greyhound as recent example, I brought up Irish Water as a counter example.

end of the road · 01-04-2015 5:29pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Give over will ya. He brought up Greyhound as recent example, I brought up Irish Water as a counter example.

give over what? you brought up irish water as an example of what?

Icepick · 01-04-2015 5:33pm

end of the road wrote: »

the amount one is payed in any sector does not mean they have nothing to fear should they have to be transferred to another company. there will always be companies looking to cut terms and conditions to the bare legal.

hence overpaid

n97 mini · 01-04-2015 5:39pm

end of the road wrote: »

give over what? you brought up irish water as an example of what?

As a counter example to Greyhound. Duh!

end of the road · 01-04-2015 6:01pm

Icepick wrote: »

hence overpaid

hence nothing of the sort

end of the road · 01-04-2015 6:03pm

n97 mini wrote: »

As a counter example to Greyhound. Duh!

its about as far out a counter example as one can get. irish water is about as relevant to greyhound as irish rail is to the FBI

cdebru · 01-04-2015 6:13pm

Icepick wrote: »

Yes it can.
If DB drivers are not overpaid, they have nothing to fear because they are irreplaceable.

Were the workers in Greyhound being "overpaid" and overpaid compared to what ? Compared to some guy who will come here from the former eastern bloc live in a house with 10 other guys and work for the minimum wage or less because he has no entitlement to social welfare and the minimum wage is still a lot better than what he can earn at home ? What are we trying to create here a country where we import cheap labour and Irish people sit at home all day on social welfare because they can't afford to work, so "shareholders" can make more profit on the backs of poor migrants, is that the country you all want to live in ?

stehyl15 · 01-04-2015 6:23pm

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Private companies ? Like aircoach ?

They also get a subsidy to run those routes. So yes we are paying for them.

Aircoach wont have their brand name on their buses it would most likely be their parent company First

cdebru · 01-04-2015 6:24pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Same relevance as Greyhound?

How ?

Greyhound is a private company, Irish water is a wholely state owned company,the transfer of workers within the water area was only from local government to a central government owned company and had no effect on terms conditions or pensions, it was not competitive tendering as is the case in DB which inevitably will have an effect on wages as the companies try to outbid to win contracts as wages are the biggest cost they will inevitably be targeted.

There is a solution which removes wages from the tendering process by the NTA setting an industry minimum standard, which is I believe what the transport workers in London were on strike recently looking for TFL to do.

stehyl15 · 01-04-2015 6:27pm

I also what companies will take up these routes will they be Irish companies like Dualway, Finegan Bray etc. will it be Veoila or will be the large transport English companies like First, Arriva and Stagecoach

currins_02 · 01-04-2015 6:30pm

cdebru wrote: »

Were the workers in Greyhound being "overpaid" and overpaid compared to what ? Compared to some guy who will come here from the former eastern bloc live in a house with 10 other guys and work for the minimum wage or less because he has no entitlement to social welfare and the minimum wage is still a lot better than what he can earn at home ? What are we trying to create here a country where we import cheap labour and Irish people sit at home all day on social welfare because they can't afford to work, so "shareholders" can make more profit on the backs of poor migrants, is that the country you all want to live in ?

Again I believe such comments are unfair and sensationalist. One of the positive outcomes of the harmonisation of much (not all but most of) EU driver licencing rules and the much maligned driver CPC is that is has stemmed (not stopped but seriously impaired) the flow of cheap labour. There is a government report identifying an impending driver shortage as a major issue. Equally speaking personally I have never nor hope to never have worked as a driver for or near the minimum wage. I do know peole who have but they don't stay long and move on quickly. Don't believe all the anti private union spin in an equal way to much of the anti CIE/union spin must be tempered also.

For the record, I know a Greyhound driver very very well, he was there pre the TUPE DCC drivers coming in and is a born and bred Dub (does some coach driving free lance at weekends that's how I met him). He is happy with his pay but was never happy with the DCC lads getting an alleged 30% more for the same work. He fought unsuccessfully to get his money up and went to a rival (red trucks - high profile from west coast) and was shocked to be offered a good wage but less than he was on so stayed put. He crossed the picket every day happily through the dispute (something I condemn) and has since got a small raise. So it is unfair to unions and spokes people to say the vacuum was filled by Eastern Bloc non minimum wage type people. Greyhound are far from angels and I cannot condone some of what they do or how they conduct themselves but sometimes all you see and read in the media is not the God's truth. My friend reckons there is a very poor relationship and always has been between the TUPE workers in Greyhound who came from DCC and the "others" who didn't come through TUPE.

end of the road · 01-04-2015 6:31pm

stehyl15 wrote: »

I also what companies will take up these routes will they be Irish companies like Dualway, Finegan Bray etc. will be Veoila or will be the large transport English companies like First, Arriva and Stagecoach

apparently the companies applying have to have a turn over of 40000000 per year. so i guess First, Arriva and Stagecoach and similar will be the only ones able to apply. but maybe not

currins_02 · 01-04-2015 6:32pm

end of the road wrote: »

apparently the companies applying have to have a turn over of 40000000 per year. so i guess First, Arriva and Stagecoach and similar will be the only ones able to apply. but maybe not

Many privates are forming groups and partnerships to achieve the turnover I believe. Rumours of a number of groupings nearing finalisation of their bids.

woodrow wyatt · 01-04-2015 6:55pm

currins_02 wrote: »

One of my regrets in life is I didn't take a chance to go for a job in BE when the chance arose a few years back but you live and learn. The pay and conditions are way in excess of anything in the private sector. I don't begrudge anyone that really and am quite jealous. That said I do not believe, have 14 years experience on and off, I have ever been underpayed or abused in the private sector. Having had cause to use the health systems extensively in recent months I do have issue with the fact the packages enjoyed by many driving staff exceeds that of many nurses and junior doctors. That is unjustifiable and a systemic imbalance that must be addressed. Yes, hard for anyone to swallow cuts but there comes a time gravy train has to stop.

Something dodgy about this here post.
1. If you where treated so good in private sector why did you want to go work for BE?
2.Yet again talk of amazing pay and conditions, but zero proof of what you claim.
3. What are these health packages drivers have that are better than doctors and nurses?

woodrow wyatt · 01-04-2015 7:00pm

currins_02 wrote: »

Without bashing CIE, I would say the stereo type that all privates abuse staff, underpay them and overwork them is not fair either. As posted earlier I have a combined 14 years in the private sector of this industry and have never worked for minimum wage I feel I earn a more than fair and decent wage, I have worked hard but have never felt abused.

So why did you state earlier that you wanted to get a job with BE?
If the private sector was/is so good to you why did you want to work for BE?

Icepick · 01-04-2015 7:35pm

cdebru wrote: »

Were the workers in Greyhound being "overpaid" and overpaid compared to what ? Compared to some guy who will come here from the former eastern bloc live in a house with 10 other guys and work for the minimum wage or less because he has no entitlement to social welfare and the minimum wage is still a lot better than what he can earn at home ? What are we trying to create here a country where we import cheap labour and Irish people sit at home all day on social welfare because they can't afford to work, so "shareholders" can make more profit on the backs of poor migrants, is that the country you all want to live in ?

Overpaid in comparisson with the market rate. And again, if they are not, there is nothing to fear.
The biggest reason for the high cost of living here is the inefficient public sector.

monument · 01-04-2015 7:35pm

dublindiehard wrote: »

4 hope you are able to back your claim up else you are playing a very dangerous game

dublindiehard wrote: »

I suggest you either put up something to support your allegation or withdraw it.

make statements that are untrue about a company online could land you in hot water

Stop making threats -- if there's something wrong with a post report it. But do not start back seat modratoring.

Read the charter before posting again.

- moderator

end of the road · 01-04-2015 8:07pm

Icepick wrote: »

Overpaid in comparisson with the market rate. And again, if they are not, there is nothing to fear.
The biggest reason for the high cost of living here is the inefficient public sector.

what "market rate" they have everything to fear, otherwise there wouldn't be an issue. they aren't "overpayed" our costs of living are high because they are, they would be regardless of how good the public sector would be.

Icepick · 01-04-2015 8:35pm

end of the road wrote: »

what "market rate" they have everything to fear, otherwise there wouldn't be an issue. they aren't "overpayed"

Is this really so hard to understand?
Market rate is what people in their position, with their experience, etc. would be able to get elsewhere. If they are not able to get what they have now elsewhere, they must be overpaid.

end of the road wrote: »

our costs of living are high because they are, they would be regardless of how good the public sector would be.

I must be imagining all those taxes and expensive everything to do with the public service - such as public transport - then.

n97 mini · 01-04-2015 8:51pm

cdebru wrote: »

How ?

Greyhound is a private company..........

Neither Irish Ferries or Irish Water were involved a competitive tendering process which may or may not result in the transition of service provision from a state owned company to a third party.

They are as irrelevant as each other.

currins_02 · 01-04-2015 9:40pm

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

Something dodgy about this here post.
1. If you where treated so good in private sector why did you want to go work for BE?
2.Yet again talk of amazing pay and conditions, but zero proof of what you claim.
3. What are these health packages drivers have that are better than doctors and nurses?

Nothing at all dodgy in my posts and I stand over everything I posted. We're allowed diverse opinions and mine are based on over 14years bus/coach driving/management experience.

To make things easy and takes your points as stated:
1. I have made a decent living in the private side of the industry, I own my house, run a good car, have wife and 2 kids, annual hols etc. Why would I move (as they say if I knew then what I know now!) try these for size:
- Just drive, no need to clean windows, lift rubbish, sweep floors, mop floors, polish floors, clean jacks, wash/wax/polish outside coach, scrub wheels clean etc. Do I mind doing those jobs now, not really, would I like to not have to do them yes of course
- Pension, it is fully accepted that new entrants in recent years have a reduced pension entitlement but approx 8-9 years ago when recruitment was open and I chose not to apply it was the full pension. While happy in my nappy now age and maturity has made me think of such menial things, is that in some way dodgy?
- Being on a "board", if on a "board" BE drivers know weeks if not months in advance exactly what they are doing, I generally know roughly 1 week ahead, would I like the extra heads up, yes, does it mean I should jack my current work, absolutely not
- Training perks, there is no legal obligation on employers to pay for training such as Driver CPC (morally I don't agree but that is the case - I have checked legally and with RSA), in BE not alone is the training paid for but a full shift is paid and a full dinner provided - would I prefer that to paying €50 a year and getting my own lunch? BE is the only coach operator I know of in UK or Ireland being so generous, some may pay for the course OR the lunch but no other pays course, full shift pay and a slap up lunch. Also can do further training
- Promotional structure, Having been around the private industry I relaise it runs with far less admin, management or supervisory type folk. BE is coming down with them. As such there are more opportunities to get promoted. I have limited management experience, assist in the office during quiet times and have managed large movements of people but the chance to get a full time promotion are limited due to less of that grade of staff. Is it a sin to be ambitious? Does it make me want to jack up in protest - no I like my job but would like more opportunity for promotion - maybe if privates win some tenders I will get that chance but again will always be less than BE as won't have as many "caps" or "half caps" etc
..... I can go on

2. The packages enjoyed by BE staff have been widely published all over the press, net, boards etc. I'll let you go check it out. Basically unions and staff argue a basic average package in the late 30k's (form memory something around €36k-€38k) while other people add in the accrued bonuses, allowances etc and come up with an average driver grade package of between €48k and €53k from memory. I didn't say the packages were "amazing", you did. I believe the average total accrued coach driver package in UK is around STG£27k which is currently mid to low €30's in terms when converted. There were, for instance (and this was widely published) annual & monthly bonuses for not crashing or damaging vehicles, 100% of eligible staff got it yet mysteriously a lot of coaches damaged?! Staff who can't return to depot get a lunch allowance, meanwhile in some areas they also have a heavily subsidised canteen, so get a lunch allowance and a subsidised canteen - I have to bring a lunch box!! I don't begrudge it, good luck to those getting it, am I jealous (that's entirely different to begrudgery) - yes, do I think it is sustainable and makes company competitive in a tender environment - no

3. Who mentioned "health packages" - allow staff do enjoy subsidised company docs and good health benefits - I certainly didn't. My comparison was with overall pay packages. Many nurses on packages of under €30k (despite years of training, the obvious occupational hazards etc) while junior doctors start in mid €30's and are typically working 80 hour weeks. How does that compare with the hours worked and pay (either the bare wage union figure or more realistic total package figure) of BE staff?

Nothing dodgy just my views.

Bus Strike (read warning in post #1)

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