Bus Strike (read warning in post #1)

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Poor journalism from RTE, confusing open tendering with privatisation.

What remains to be seen is will the unions derail the process. As a customer I kind of get fed up of this sort of shíte. I just want a dependable and efficient service.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0330/690876-talks-on-privatisation-of-bus-routes-break-down/
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0331/691047-nbru-to-ballot-for-industrial-action/

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Irish rail will strike too if it all goes ahead.

LXFlyer

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Irish rail will strike too if it all goes ahead.

And what basis do you have for that statement?

dublindiehard

NBRU said it.

Fully public run = run for benefit of the staff
fully private run = run for benefit of the shareholders.

Both models involve people syphooning off the profits for their own interests. which is why a combination of the two is needed.

mickydoomsux

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Irish rail will strike too if it all goes ahead.

Bus Eireann didn't go on strike when we did last year.

Carry on with your classic Irish "shur, dere all de same thing" nonsense.

Jamie2k9

If IE are asked to vote and vote in favor of action, IE should take out an injunction against any action as there is no valid grounds for them to strike.

Bus Eireann didn't go on strike when we did last year.

Carry on with your classic Irish "shur, dere all de same thing" nonsense.

It didn't get to a point where they were going to ask members to vote. according to NBRU Irish Rail will also be asked to vote this time.

Kermit.de.frog

The sooner the Dublin Bus monopoly is smashed the better.

clunked

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The sooner the Dublin Bus monopoly is smashed the better.

A very considered response, thank you!

Listening to RTE 1 radio this morning, a representative from the private operators more or less admitted that it would result in lower wages for drivers. As the NTA tender documents seemed to suggest that a tendering company needed to have a turnover over €40 million per anum, you would have only multinational companies or CIE group companies.

The unions are only defending the legitimate rights of their members.

end of the road

dublindiehard wrote: »

NBRU said it.

Fully public run = run for benefit of the staff
fully private run = run for benefit of the shareholders.

Both models involve people syphooning off the profits for their own interests. which is why a combination of the two is needed.

so double the "problem" then? great. no, i'm afraid better to have the current companies and force reform then wasting time tendering when companies by the looks of it won't have any say in how things are done.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If IE are asked to vote and vote in favor of action, IE should take out an injunction against any action as there is no valid grounds for them to strike.

well, some may feel this is a valid ground as the belief might be that irish rail could be next. where they are going to get the money from to take an injunction out though, i don't know. i don't think IE will vote for strike action anyway.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The sooner the Dublin Bus monopoly is smashed the better.

why is that then. whats it going to achieve. i don't like dublin bus isn't an answer.

Infini

Tbh people tend to be jealous of anyone who has a decent job nowadays its that kind of attitude that I see in alot of pro privatisation posts here. Tbh I dont blame anyone for defending their job its what you do because theres plenty of people out there who would drive the place into the dirt just for the sake of profit.

The whole reason the NBRU is balloting for the strike option is to stop people from being forced into lower wages/minimum wages for these jobs in an economy thats getting more expensive. Its to stop a race to the bottom and creating a situation like in london where people are payed less for the same job as someone else.

Was no suprise theyre gonna pull all 3 companies out on strike this time if they push it remember what happened with irish ferries years back this is the same thing via the back door this time.

End of the day privatisation doesnt make anything better only worse.

devnull

Apparently one of the key reasons Irish Rail will get involved is because it could effect the commercial interests of CIE.

Have I missed something, or is Irish Rail now a private company?

frankoreagan

Dublin Bus' service is shoddy and overpriced, only people benefiting at the moment are staff. If it takes a private operator to come in and shake things up, and get DB to pull the finger out, so be it. DB have had it their way for decades, and the current shambles of a service is the best they can come up with. Can't see how a private operator could do worse tbh.

Icepick

clunked wrote: »

Listening to RTE 1 radio this morning, a representative from the private operators more or less admitted that it would result in lower wages for drivers.

If that is the market rate, good.
Because in that case, they are wasting our money and offering poor service at the same time.

The more they strike, the more should be privatized.

Icepick

Infini2 wrote: »

theres plenty of people out there who would drive the place into the dirt just for the sake of profit.

For the sake of profit, the service would actually get better and cheaper.
For the sake of the unions and self entitlement, we have the current situation.

punisher5112

If they were to lower our wages I would be better off not working.

devnull

punisher5112 wrote: »

If they were to lower our wages I would be better off not working.

So you are saying that you aren't paid much more than €800 a month? Come on, we both know that the average yearly take home amount in cash for Dublin Bus drivers is a few times more than €10,000 a year.

devnull

Infini2 wrote: »

Tbh people tend to be jealous of anyone who has a decent job nowadays its that kind of attitude that I see in alot of pro privatisation posts here. Tbh I dont blame anyone for defending their job its what you do because theres plenty of people out there who would drive the place into the dirt just for the sake of profit.

The whole reason the NBRU is balloting for the strike option is to stop people from being forced into lower wages/minimum wages for these jobs in an economy thats getting more expensive. Its to stop a race to the bottom and creating a situation like in london where people are payed less for the same job as someone else.

Was no suprise theyre gonna pull all 3 companies out on strike this time if they push it remember what happened with irish ferries years back this is the same thing via the back door this time.

End of the day privatisation doesnt make anything better only worse.

A public service is not about
- Providing the most jobs possible
- Providing the best possible conditions for staff
- Making any companies management happy

A public service is about
- Providing the best service for the public.

I note that you were only too happy to talk about jobs, staff conditions and keeping people within your company happy but not about the actual service to the customers, which is vastly more important.

The thing is, staff in Dublin Bus don't want a true public company, what they want is a company with all the benefits of the public sector company and all of the benefits of a private company, with the downside of either.

Years Dublin Bus staff spent complaining that private companies were evil since they didn't care about the service, just about what suited the company and it's staff and shareholders and screw the public. Some years down the line, we have staff of the very same company, saying that staff should stand up for their rights, the company should do what is best for itself and it's staff, and that is what is most important.

As I said, neither a fully private or public model is ideal in Ireland. The only difference between both models is that in one a private company is running for the benefit of it's shareholders and themselves, and in the other the public company is running for the benefit of it's staff and themselves. That is why a regulated style tendering system is an excellent idea. It basically takes away the power of either party to use their vested interests against the greater good.

Thats why you have public companies hell bent on stopping anything to do with it, and private companies saying it's far too weak and they are not going far enough. At the end of the day it's time for the passenger and the ordinary Gerry and Mary on the streets to be put first, and not before time too.

end of the road

Icepick wrote: »

The more they strike, the more should be privatized.

oh dear. someone should tell him strikes happen in private sector transport companies, including the much beloved london bus system

frankoreagan wrote: »

If it takes a private operator to come in and shake things up

shake what up. the NTA is making all the decisians. if we had both dublin bus and private running on the same route you would have a point, but i don't see anything that states that is going to happen.

frankoreagan wrote: »

Can't see how a private operator could do worse tbh.

well that is hardly selling it is it? if thats the case then apart from a tocan jesture to this apparent EU law then whats the point?

Icepick wrote: »

For the sake of profit, the service would actually get better and cheaper.

really? yeah, i'm sure. again, the NTA is making the decisians, the companies, well, looks like they don't get a say. i'd also imagine the NTA will continue to set the fares.

clunked

devnull wrote: »

A public service is not about
- Providing the most jobs possible
- Providing the best possible conditions for staff
- Making any companies management happy

A public service is about
- Providing the best service for the public.

I note that you were only too happy to talk about jobs, staff conditions and keeping people within your company happy but not about the actual service to the customers, which is vastly more important.

The thing is, staff in Dublin Bus don't want a true public company, what they want is a company with all the benefits of the public sector company and all of the benefits of a private company, with the downside of either.

Years Dublin Bus staff spent complaining that private companies were evil since they didn't care about the service, just about what suited the company and it's staff and shareholders and screw the public. Some years down the line, we have staff of the very same company, saying that staff should stand up for their rights, the company should do what is best for itself and it's staff, and that is what is most important.

As I said, neither a fully private or public model is ideal in Ireland. The only difference between both models is that in one a private company is running for the benefit of it's shareholders and themselves, and in the other the public company is running for the benefit of it's staff and themselves. That is why a regulated style tendering system is an excellent idea. It basically takes away the power of either party to use their vested interests against the greater good.

Thats why you have public companies hell bent on stopping anything to do with it, and private companies saying it's far too weak and they are not going far enough. At the end of the day it's time for the passenger and the ordinary Gerry and Mary on the streets to be put first, and not before time too.

That's Gerry and Mary who work for the NTA or Gerry and Mary who manage an international transport conglomerate because it sure as hell won't be Gerry or Mary waiting for the no. 16 bus to Harold's Cross. I hasten to add I am not a Dublin Bus employee nor anyone in my family or circle of friends are.

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

A public service is not about
- Providing the most jobs possible
- Providing the best possible conditions for staff
- Making any companies management happy

A public service is about
- Providing the best service for the public.

I note that you were only too happy to talk about jobs, staff conditions and keeping people within your company happy but not about the actual service to the customers, which is vastly more important.

The thing is, staff in Dublin Bus don't want a true public company, what they want is a company with all the benefits of the public sector company and all of the benefits of a private company, with the downside of either.

Years Dublin Bus staff spent complaining that private companies were evil since they didn't care about the service, just about what suited the company and it's staff and shareholders and screw the public. Some years down the line, we have staff of the very same company, saying that staff should stand up for their rights, the company should do what is best for itself and it's staff, and that is what is most important.

As I said, neither a fully private or public model is ideal in Ireland. The only difference between both models is that in one a private company is running for the benefit of it's shareholders and themselves, and in the other the public company is running for the benefit of it's staff and themselves. That is why a regulated style tendering system is an excellent idea. It basically takes away the power of either party to use their vested interests against the greater good.

Thats why you have public companies hell bent on stopping anything to do with it, and private companies saying it's far too weak and they are not going far enough. At the end of the day it's time for the passenger and the ordinary Gerry and Mary on the streets to be put first, and not before time too.

the staff have to look out for themselves and their family members first. thats the same in any company. i'd rather the current system of dublin bus apparently "running for the benefit of staff" which i don't believe, then a private one running for the benefit of shareholders. as i said as the NTA look to be the ones making the decisians in full then dublin bus can be kept running all services and sorted out. i just cannot see any point to this tendering seeing as it looks to me like the companies won't have a say

Jamie2k9

Lots of talk about wages being driven down which is a problem however on the other hand unions and staff of CIE will soon be looking for their gold plated salaries/pensions to be restored pre financial crisis (very high % of employees) which isn't sustainable either.

There needs to be private operations allowed compete and win routes for passenger benefit but most impotently to keep staff at CIE in the real world when to comes to wages and not in the bubble they were in for years and will return to in the near future if unions have their way.

Jamie2k9

well, some may feel this is a valid ground as the belief might be that irish rail could be next. where they are going to get the money from to take an injunction out though, i don't know. i don't think IE will vote for strike action anyway.

Staff in IE with no brains yes but external operations will not touch our network for a sting of reasons. I don't think they would vote in favour either but it's possible. As for the money, can they afford to lose 500,000 like they did last year because of action.

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

the staff have to look out for themselves and their family members first. thats the same in any company.

In a normal company I'd agree. But Semi states and public companies are not normal companies, they are companies that are ran for the benefit of the public that fund them not for the benefit of themselves.

If people want to be in a company for self gain, that is what the private sector is for, but the people in DB want a weird hybrid with all the good parts of both, but none of the bad parts of either.

i'd rather the current system of dublin bus apparently "running for the benefit of staff" which i don't believe, then a private one running for the benefit of shareholders.

I'd rather have a system where the company is ran for neither, and that is what the NTA are proposing.

i just cannot see any point to this tendering seeing as it looks to me like the companies won't have a say

Both me and you know it's not a simple as the NTA making an order and everyone will follow it no questions asked.

dfx-

clunked wrote: »

That's Gerry and Mary who work for the NTA or Gerry and Mary who manage an international transport conglomerate because it sure as hell won't be Gerry or Mary waiting for the no. 16 bus to Harold's Cross. I hasten to add I am not a Dublin Bus employee nor anyone in my family or circle of friends are.

I'm not a Dublin Bus employee or anyone in my close or extended family either.

It doesn't take inside knowledge to know that the NTA, government and sainted private companies have no more consideration for Gerry and Mary standing waiting on the 16 in the rain than the dogs on the street.

It will about running as little resources for as much money as possible. Gerry and Mary will be an inconvenience who will be fobbed off if they complain.

If the NTA did, they would already try to fix the shambolic 16. But they don't and they've had years to do so.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

The way i look at it all is private companies are set up with one goal only in mind. To make profit.

The routes that are up for tendering now are loss making

If a private company does take them they would have to do something drastic with the routes so they don't lose so much money. I can't see that been any good.

Again as others have said. With one body making all the decisions anyway (including fares) then what is the point to it all ?

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end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Lots of talk about wages being driven down which is a problem however on the other hand unions and staff of CIE will soon be looking for their gold plated salaries/pensions to be restored pre financial crisis (very high % of employees) which isn't sustainable either.

There needs to be private operations allowed compete and win routes for passenger benefit but most impotently to keep staff at CIE in the real world when to comes to wages and not in the bubble they were in for years and will return to in the near future if unions have their way.

there doesn't "need to be" if private operators want to come in it should be along side dublin bus not instead of. having private companies coming just to "keep CIE staff" in the apparent real world isn't a good reason or a reason at all frankly for them to come in

Van.Bosch

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

The way i look at it all is private companies are set up with one goal only in mind. To make profit.

The routes that are up for tendering now are loss making

If a private company does take them they would have to do something drastic with the routes so they don't lose so much money. I can't see that been any good.

Again as others have said. With one body making all the decisions anyway (including fares) then what is the point to it all ?

...

They get paid a fixed price, the route could lose millions and it doesn't impact the private company.

end of the road

Van.Bosch wrote: »

They get paid a fixed price, the route could lose millions and it doesn't impact the private company.

exactly. where the money is going to come from to pay such an attractive rate i don't know

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

So you are saying that you aren't paid much more than €800 a month? Come on, we both know that the average yearly take home amount in cash for Dublin Bus drivers is a few times more than €10,000 a year.

There are some on the scratcher that get around €800 a week never mind a month when you add up all the extra allowance they get.

mickydoomsux

devnull wrote: »

In a normal company I'd agree. But Semi states and public companies are not normal companies, they are companies that are ran for the benefit of the public that fund them not for the benefit of themselves.

So everyone working in either state or semi-state companies should accept crap pay and conditions to provide a certain ideal level of service?

Good luck getting anyone but the most desperate to do those jobs so. I can't wait to see nurses, doctors, gardai, etc along with public transport workers on minimum wage so that the end user of the service can have white glove treatment.

devnull

A definition of crap pay is very subjective, I don't think you will get anyone who says they are paid too much, even if they are and that goes with any industry.

I don't want anyone to get the minimum wage in the sectors or any of the transport company, but at the same time, the current salary bill in the CIE companies is higher than other businesses in the transport sector.

I don't think your average Dublin Bus employee is going to be able to earn anything like €800 a week on social welfare as easy as that, Of course it's possible to get more than the standard JSB rate on the dole with add-ons, but really how many people will get all of them, and quite frankly, some people who do get it for good reasons, be that due to disability, or other reasons.

punisher5112

devnull wrote: »

So you are saying that you aren't paid much more than €800 a month? Come on, we both know that the average yearly take home amount in cash for Dublin Bus drivers is a few times more than €10,000 a year.

Lets see where do I start...

Tax tax tax tax is all I see coming out of my wages.
USC
PRSI which gets me nothing.
I have to maintain a car to get to work fuel, tax, tyres, NCT, Insurance, licence, maintenance, other costs, depreciation etc etc.
Need to sort lunch, dinner etc.

If I didn't work I wouldnt have to worry about a car, insuarance and tax really and so on.

I would get dole, rent allowance/benefit/supplement what ever it's called these days.

So on and so on etc etc.

Much more benefits in there.

punisher5112

devnull wrote: »

A definition of crap pay is very subjective, I don't think you will get anyone who says they are paid too much, even if they are.

I don't want anyone to get the minimum wage in the sectors or any of the transport company, but at the same time, the current salary bill in the CIE companies is higher than other businesses in the transport sector.

Start with the actuall high paid and would actually love if people stopped going after the lowest paid.

Would managers be in a job if there was no drivers?

Its a extremely difficult, tiring and stressful job and believe me it's not easy.

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

the current salary bill in the CIE companies is higher than other businesses in the transport sector.

some businesses pay higher wages then others in a particular sector. thats not the problem of other businesses, the same as other businesses wages aren't the problem of dublin bus for example.

devnull

punisher5112 wrote: »

Lets see where do I start...

Tax tax tax tax is all I see coming out of my wages.
USC
PRSI which gets me nothing.
I have to maintain a car to get to work fuel, tax, tyres, NCT, Insurance, licence, maintenance, other costs, depreciation etc etc.
Need to sort lunch, dinner etc.

And so? There are people who are far worse off than the vast majority of Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann workers who have a smaller income than the average industrial income per year, unlike CIE employees who earn on average a little more than that.

I have to pay all those things and from an ex driver I know, certainly the salaries in Dublin Bus are better than what I am paid, and I actually had to study in university for my degree and put a lot of hard work and effort in. I'm not saying that Bus driving is an easy job, but the pay certainly is very good.

I don't think the majority of people will be getting anything close to €800 a week in benefits. Maybe a small fraction can get that in theory, but it's highly unlikely and rare that every person will qualify for every possible allowance and as I said, the people who do have situations that often require it.

devnull

punisher5112 wrote: »

Start with the actuall high paid and would actually love if people stopped going after the lowest paid.

Thing is though, in my career, it has become pretty apparent that everyone who you ask about pay cuts, always says that it should start with the level above them, if you are asking the people one level from the top of the tree, in the middle of the tree, or at the bottom.

Would managers be in a job if there was no drivers?

Managers are there to manage, drivers are there to drive. Any company needs a mixture of both to work out, again drives seem to think they could run the company themselves, when simply they could not. In my office if there was no authority or management, the place would quickly turn into meltdown.

Just like the whole idea of kicking all the admin workers out of the HSE is flawed. The idea of getting rid of the bureaucracy and giving more money to be spent on doctors, but in the end the same work has to be done by the doctors, who are less qualified and familiar and less experienced with such tasks, taking them away from actually seeing patients which makes the service even more inefficent than it was before they addressed the issue.

Its a extremely difficult, tiring and stressful job and believe me it's not easy.

Never said it was easy or not tiring or stressful, but many jobs are like that. you are not alone in that regard.

monument

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stehyl15

Sack them all i say go to pakistan and get cheap labour

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

some businesses pay higher wages then others in a particular sector. thats not the problem of other businesses, the same as other businesses wages aren't the problem of dublin bus for example.

Dublin Bus is not a commercial business.

It is a public company run for the public.

The unions spent years telling us that, but seem to have abandoned that line recently when they realise it doesn't suit their current agenda.

punisher5112

stehyl15 wrote: »

Sack them all i say go to pakistan and get cheap labour

Good plan even better just scrap public transport altogether.

Icepick

punisher5112 wrote: »

If they were to lower our wages I would be better off not working.

So instead we should be overpaying? Better to reform the welfare system.

punisher5112

Icepick wrote: »

So instead we should be overpaying? Better to reform the welfare system.

Where did I say we are overpaid.

Overpaid no way underpaid for what we have to put up with yes.

stehyl15

I love how dublin bus and irish rail use the word customers i find the word users more adequete

stehyl15

punisher5112 wrote: »

Good plan even better just scrap public transport altogether.

But we could give them 50 cent an hour and theyd probably be happy one less cost for db mangement

stehyl15

Why are they getting so much money in the first i wouldnt call driving a bus a skilled job

punisher5112

stehyl15 wrote: »

Why are they getting so much money in the first i wouldnt call driving a bus a skilled job

You have to have the force.

Have you.

Icepick

mickydoomsux wrote: »

So everyone working in either state or semi-state companies should accept crap pay and conditions to provide a certain ideal level of service?

Good luck getting anyone but the most desperate to do those jobs so. I can't wait to see nurses, doctors, gardai, etc along with public transport workers on minimum wage so that the end user of the service can have white glove treatment.

Comparing drivers to doctors? ...

mickydoomsux

Icepick wrote: »

Comparing drivers to doctors? ...

Not really, just expanding on the other posters logic of paying public and semi state workers less because they are providing a public service and should be more interested in that than making a decent living

woodrow wyatt

devnull wrote: »

from an ex driver I know, certainly the salaries in Dublin Bus are better than what I am paid, and I actually had to study in university for my degree and put a lot of hard work and effort in. I'm not saying that Bus driving is an easy job, but the pay certainly is very good.

Dublin bus are hiring at the moment, whats stopping you and others from applying for the job?

woodrow wyatt

devnull wrote: »

Managers are there to manage, drivers are there to drive. Any company needs a mixture of both to work out, again drives seem to think they could run the company themselves, when simply they could not. In my office if there was no authority or management, the place would quickly turn into meltdown.

Department of Transport.
NTA.
CIE.
Dublin Bus.
Here we have 4 layers of management all doing the same job.
Blame the lowest level of worker in the company for its woes, thats seem to be your answer.
You cant have multiple people doing the same job of driving the one bus, but you blame them for the financial problems?

woodrow wyatt

stehyl15 wrote: »

Why are they getting so much money in the first i wouldnt call driving a bus a skilled job

What do they get paid?
I read here about huge gold plated wages and pensions but never see and figures.