Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

irishbucsfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

and theres the rub.....

whos not getting behind him?

thats not what the argument is AT ALL

:pac: Just read above. People talking about how Leinster are too good for someone like Leo and appalled at the very notion of giving him a decent contract.

sydthebeat

irishbucsfan wrote: »

:pac: Just read above. People talking about how Leinster are too good for someone like Leo and appalled at the very notion of giving him a decent contract.

literally no one has said

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Leinster are too good for someone like Leo

or

irishbucsfan wrote: »

appalled at the very notion of giving him a decent contract.

irishbucsfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

literally no one has said
...

Of course they have. This is the tone of some of the posts:

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Head coach of Leinster is not the place for recently retired players to be learning their trade. Leo may be a fine coach some day, but the gamble of finding out how good he might be is not one we should be taking. They have no one so they throw him the gig.
Very disappointed.

Or even better, how about this gem:

sydthebeat wrote: »

We, as fans, deserve a hell of a lot better appointment than that.

thomond2006

There's a difference between not approving an appointment and then not getting behind the person.

sydthebeat

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Of course they have. This is the tone of some of the posts:


Or even better, how about this gem:

as youve quoted me out of context, ill put in back in for you.

that was said when it first reported that Leo was getting a 3 year contract, which would have been ludicrous. 2 years is better in that, in my opinion, its a front for what is really a one year trail run which, if it doent work out, Leo is brought back into the coaching squad without loosing too much face, and the management saving face too by saying that they gave him full backing.

3 years however, would have been completely nonsensical.

you cannot still argue with the following facts:
1. he has no head coaching experience
2. he has 1 year assistant coaching experience which wasn't a stunning success.
3. he has no coaching experience outside of leinster
4. no other person has come out to say they were approached for the position.

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

There's a difference between not approving an appointment and then not getting behind the person.

No, there's actually no difference.

It doesn't mean someone who is criticising Cullen now won't get behind him later, and I definitely think everyone will give him some chance, however if you are criticising someone's appointment you are not getting behind that person at that point in time.

I don't think that's really relevant however. I don't doubt for a second that most people here will be fully behind Cullen and Leinster when the season rolls around, and most people here will give him a fair chance. I'm not saying that people are not behind him.



The very core point I would make anyway is that there is no option to go into this season without a coach lined up for the following season, it's not an option for a professional rugby club. You can't get to October/November this year without having a plan for the following season and Cullen as an interim coach for the entire season isn't an option. Cullen wouldn't normally have the track record to justify appointment to the job ignoring the situational factors, however he is the appointment and once the situational factors are considered I think the complaints about him and the manner of his appointment are COMPLETELY misplaced and extremely ill-considered given how good we know the management of the club to be. It's also frustrating to see how entitled and unrealistic some Leinster fans have become, but in reality that doesn't actually matter that much.

thomond2006

Of course there's a difference.

I think you can disagree with something and still wish for it to be a success. Otherwise you'd have to a sheep to get behind a team!

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

Of course there's a difference.

I think you can disagree with something and still wish for it to be a success. Otherwise you'd have to a sheep to get behind a team!

Yeah, well it's completely irrelevant. If you got a new job and I wrote an article explaining why it was a terrible idea to give you the job, and then tried to tell you I was behind you, I think you'd take issue with it. But as I said that's not really a relevant discussion here, I completely agree there are a lot of people who will criticise Leo's appointment who will support him fully and fairly once the season rolls around.

Also there's nothing wrong with not being in favour of Cullen's appointment and not getting behind him, that's completely up to any fan of Leinster, it's completely rational to say "I don't think this is a good idea and I'm going to wait and see how this works out." Not everyone needs to support everything their province does, I was heavily critical of Cullen's appointment as forwards coach at the end of the season before last.

sydthebeat

i am behind Leo, i would have no problem with the initial interim appointment that was muted, be it for the RWC period, 6 months or even the whole season at a push... while they are sourcing other options.

Im not happy with a 2 year head coach appointment though.

so it is possible not to approve the appointment and still be behind the man. I want him to succeed, and in doing so earn the head coach role.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yeah, well it's completely irrelevant. If you got a new job and I wrote an article explaining why it was a terrible idea to give you the job, and then tried to tell you I was behind you, I think you'd take issue with it. But as I said that's not really a relevant discussion here, I completely agree there are a lot of people who will criticise Leo's appointment who will support him fully and fairly once the season rolls around.

Also there's nothing wrong with not being in favour of Cullen's appointment and not getting behind him, that's completely up to any fan of Leinster, it's completely rational to say "I don't think this is a good idea and I'm going to wait and see how this works out." Not everyone needs to support everything their province does, I was heavily critical of Cullen's appointment as forwards coach at the end of the season before last.

There is also the slight point regarding the fact that some, myself included, have been in favour of giving Leo the gig for the coming season since even before MOC left. I've mentioned the Cullen/Dempsey option numerous times. I've also been very much in favour of giving Leo a longer term contract if he can show he's up to it. Literally the only thing I'm disagreeing with is the contract length. Now maybe Leo might not see that as me backing him, but ultimately it is just that. Only I'm injecting some realism into it at the same time. Backing someone isn't an all or nothing kind of thing.

irishbucsfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

i am behind Leo, i would have no problem with the initial interim appointment that was muted, be it for the RWC period, 6 months or even the whole season at a push... while they are sourcing other options.

Im not happy with a 2 year head coach appointment though.

so it is possible not to approve the appointment and still be behind the man. I want him to succeed, and in doing so earn the head coach role.

A 6 month appointment or even a 1 year appointment just doesn't work in professional club rugby. It works in the case of Neil Doak or other actual interim coaches where you have a successor lined up or are in an active process of finding a successor, you have to have some certainty over what you'll be doing in the role the following season, you can't leave it to wait and see how your interim guy goes.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

A 6 month appointment or even a 1 year appointment just doesn't work in professional club rugby. It works in the case of Neil Doak or other actual interim coaches where you have a successor lined up or are in an active process of finding a successor, you have to have some certainty over what you'll be doing in the role the following season, you can't leave it to wait and see how your interim guy goes.

Why not?

.ak

awec wrote: »

Why not?

Because there's a lot more to just thinking about what players to pick and tactics. A lot of what a coach does is planning for the future, you simply can't do that effectively if you think you're out the door in 6 months.

sydthebeat

irishbucsfan wrote: »

A 6 month appointment or even a 1 year appointment just doesn't work in professional club rugby. It works in the case of Neil Doak or other actual interim coaches where you have a successor lined up or are in an active process of finding a successor, you have to have some certainty over what you'll be doing in the role the following season, you can't leave it to wait and see how your interim guy goes.

well the diffeence between you and me then is that i think leinster should still be actively seeking possibilities for the job, a la les kiss at ulster... all the while reviewing Leos progress.

do you think we actually have certainity now for 2 years? if you do, you do not see the same gamble that i do with this appointment.

ArmchairQB

awec wrote: »

Why not?

Shows a lack of confidence in the coach and also players can get a bit to powerful if they think after a few months that the coach will be gone shortly and they get lazy also coach has no interest in long term strategy or developing young talent as he will have to get results straight away. Look at Schmidt for an example he had the certainty of a decent contract when first at Leinster and had the freedom to experiment and look how that worked out. A short term appointment allows no experimenting as to much pressure for instant results to secure a better contract.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Why not?

Because negotiations for contracts of players and non-playing staff start in October/November and you are putting yourself at a disadvantage if you don't have your house in order. A very serious disadvantage that can last for 2-3 seasons and cripple the ability of your appointee, potentially making it irrelevant.

sydthebeat

.ak wrote: »

Because there's a lot more to just thinking about what players to pick and tactics. A lot of what a coach does is planning for the future, you simply can't do that effectively if you think you're out the door in 6 months.

leo has been there as coach for over a 12 months at this stage, do you not think there a great degree of continuity there?

also, i dont believe Leo would be out the door if this appointment didnt succeed, though ive no idea what the managements definition of success is. as long as we play better rugby with more obvious ethos id be happy.

sydthebeat

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Shows a lack of confidence in the coach and also players can get a bit to powerful if they think after a few months that the coach will be gone shortly and they get lazy also coach has no interest in long term strategy or developing young talent as he will have to get results straight away. Look at Schmidt for an example he had the certainty of a decent contract when first at Leinster and had the freedom to experiment and look how that worked out. A short term appointment allows no experimenting as to much pressure for instant results to secure a better contract.

Leo wont have the luxury of "players getting a bit too powerful" because the senior players will be away.. its what he does with the other players is what he will be judged on, and they wont be in a position to posture against him.

Podge_irl

Cullen wouldn't be out the door with a new coach, he'd presumably just return to being forwards coach.

stephen_n

I think everyone accepts it's a huge gamble given Leo's lack of experience, but at some point he has sat down with the board and discussed his vision for Leinster. The same process that all other coaches have gone through and hopefully they have got in right. The view may have been taken, that ending uncertainty and just letting them get through a proper pre-season was the best approach for all. This season should be a relatively easy ride in terms of expectations, hopefully Leo can get the players to buy into his vision too and sort out the attitude problems that seem to have developed. As far as the backs coaching goes, I'd be happy with Girv, if he's willing to take the role.

irishbucsfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

Cullen wouldn't be out the door with a new coach, he'd presumably just return to being forwards coach.

I agree, I can't see him going anywhere in that situation unless the new coach was a forwards specialist.

stephen_n

sydthebeat wrote: »

Leo wont have the luxury of "players getting a bit too powerful" because the senior players will be away.. its what he does with the other players is what he will be judged on, and they wont be in a position to posture against him.

I could never envisage this happening one way or the other, Leo would be as well respected by the senior squad members as the younger ones.

total former

.ak wrote: »

Because there's a lot more to just thinking about what players to pick and tactics. A lot of what a coach does is planning for the future, you simply can't do that effectively if you think you're out the door in 6 months.

And if you're on a trial basis, everything you do will be about winning the next game and sealing the deal. Not about player progression, not about trying new combinations, not about new tactics. It's not a good idea.

sydthebeat

total former wrote: »

And if you're on a trial basis, everything you do will be about winning the next game and sealing the deal. Not about player progression, not about trying new combinations, not about new tactics. It's not a good idea.

and i suppose that would lead the question as to what Leo has done in his career to argue that he can do those things? or is he learning on the job so to speak....

its a huge gamble whatever way you look at it.

irishbucsfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

and i suppose that would lead the question as to what Leo has done in his career to argue that he can do those things? or is he learning on the job so to speak....

its a huge gamble whatever way you look at it.

Well supposedly he's been effectively an extra coach for a long time now as well as having a year as a coach at this very club. I'd imagine if there is anyone who is able to gauge his ability to do that, it would be Leinster (and also Schmidt, who has many anecdotes about him).

sydthebeat

stephen_n wrote: »

I could never envisage this happening one way or the other, Leo would be as well respected by the senior squad members as the younger ones.

completely agreed, which was my point.

sydthebeat

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well supposedly he's been effectively an extra coach for a long time now as well as having a year as a coach at this very club. I'd imagine if there is anyone who is able to gauge his ability to do that, it would be Leinster (and also Schmidt, who has many anecdotes about him).

head coach in everything but name then..... not stretching the elastic a bit there IBF?

irishbucsfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

head coach in everything but name then..... not stretching the elastic a bit there IBF?

No, because I didn't say anything remotely like that

sydthebeat

i just hope for Leinster rugby that we're not here again in a years time, thats all.

.ak

The Bath game will be a disaster of clashes!