Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

What's the difference between Doak getting a year and Cullen getting a year?

Doak didn't get a year. Doak got 3 years

But apart from that Les Kiss was appointed Director of Rugby before Doak was made head coach. If Leinster were appointing someone else as Cullen's boss then that would be an entirely different story.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Doak didn't get a year. Doak got 3 years

But apart from that Les Kiss was appointed Director of Rugby before Doak was made head coach. If Leinster were appointing someone else as Cullen's boss then that would be an entirely different story.

Doak effectively got a year. Kiss will be the man in charge from this year.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Doak effectively got a year. Kiss will be the man in charge from this year.

Well he signed a 3 year contract, but yes your post here perfectly answers this question:

awec wrote: »

What's the difference between Doak getting a year and Cullen getting a year?

There is no incoming Leinster equivalent of Les Kiss.

Interested Observer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Doak didn't get a year. Doak got 3 years

But apart from that Les Kiss was appointed Director of Rugby before Doak was made head coach. If Leinster were appointing someone else as Cullen's boss then that would be an entirely different story.

No he wasn't. The two official announcements were on the same day, in October last year. Doak had been in place as interim coach up to that point.

irishbucsfan

Interested Observer wrote: »

No he wasn't. The two official announcements were on the same day, in October last year. Doak had been in place as interim coach up to that point.

Nope, false.

Les Kiss was in place up to that point. Doak was still "attack" coach although that was in reality a mixture of skills/kicking.

Zzippy

Been away at a funeral so haven't read last few pages. Has anyone expressed concern about a recently retired player being head coach over players he has played with for years? IMO not the best idea, no matter how professional someone is there has to be an inherent bias for players he's soldiered with, and a subconscious reluctance to cut said former colleagues from squads. I guess we'll find out if we keep seeing Devin Toner inexplicably selected over Mick Kearney... :P

Zzippy

Zzippy wrote: »

Been away at a funeral so haven't read last few pages. Has anyone expressed concern about a recently retired player being head coach over players he has played with for years? IMO not the best idea, no matter how professional someone is there has to be an inherent bias for players he's soldiered with, and a subconscious reluctance to cut said former colleagues from squads. I guess we'll find out if we keep seeing Devin Toner inexplicably selected over Mick Kearney... :P

His blatant Leinster bias is bound to rear its ugly head when its comes to selection

irishbucsfan

Zzippy wrote: »

Been away at a funeral so haven't read last few pages. Has anyone expressed concern about a recently retired player being head coach over players he has played with for years? IMO not the best idea, no matter how professional someone is there has to be an inherent bias for players he's soldiered with, and a subconscious reluctance to cut said former colleagues from squads. I guess we'll find out if we keep seeing Devin Toner inexplicably selected over Mick Kearney... :P

Yeah that's always a concern, certainly could be an issue that crops up. I don't think he's the type to be influenced by it too much, a bit like Axel.

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

His blatant Leinster bias is bound to rear its ugly head when its comes to selection

What about his Leicester bias?! Could see Johne Murphy and Niall Morris in the back 3 with MOC as attack coach!

DelMcG

http://www.independent.ie/incoming/cullen-blues-deal-not-done-just-yet-31408319.html

According to the Indo, Leo has been offered but has not yet accepted a 2 year deal.

Worryingly, their answer to the backs coach quandary is Richie Murphy, which to be perfectly frank, is nonsense. He was in situ last season as the skills coach and somehow appeared to coach it out of every player. The article itself seems to be have been written by him, it's that fawning, and seems to overlook the critical fact that he's NOT backs coach with Ireland and wasn't backs coach for Leinster under Joe, as the man himself looks after that side of things.

dub_skav

DelMcG wrote: »

Worryingly, their answer to the backs coach quandary is Richie Murphy,

I could see us getting promoted to division 1B with that coaching ticket.

molloyjh

DelMcG wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/incoming/cullen-blues-deal-not-done-just-yet-31408319.html

According to the Indo, Leo has been offered but has not yet accepted a 2 year deal.

Worryingly, their answer to the backs coach quandary is Richie Murphy, which to be perfectly frank, is nonsense. He was in situ last season as the skills coach and somehow appeared to coach it out of every player. The article itself seems to be have been written by him, it's that fawning, and seems to overlook the critical fact that he's NOT backs coach with Ireland and wasn't backs coach for Leinster under Joe, as the man himself looks after that side of things.

Well Murphy is Des Barrys answer to backs coach so I wouldn't be too worried about that. Richie will still be with Ireland next season so he won't be Leinsters backs coach. Don't forget though that Richie was also in situ under Joe. I think his double jobbing is problematic on that front tbh.

As for the point about McDermott announcing the deal when it wasn't concluded I probably do agree with that. You don't announce these things until they are done and that was pretty poor form. What he said about Leo stepping up since being given the head coach role when MOC left is interesting though. Maybe Leo has made a real impression in the last couple of months, which would be a big positive.

Uriel.

I see the independent is suggesting that leinster are about to sign conrad Hoffman for RWC cover at scrum half... Don't know anything about the player myself

sydthebeat

Uriel. wrote: »

I see the independent is suggesting that leinster are about to sign conrad Hoffman for RWC cover at scrum half... Don't know anything about the player myself

Have a look a few pages back.

On phone can't link.

Uriel.

sydthebeat wrote: »

Have a look a few pages back.

On phone can't link.

Aha, somehow missed that nugget in all the excitement of the appointment of long term top class head coach.......

DelMcG

Uriel. wrote: »

I see the independent is suggesting that leinster are about to sign conrad Hoffman for RWC cover at scrum half... Don't know anything about the player myself

Hasn't been confirmed by Leinster but it was all over the SA press in recent days.

Had a word with a Saffa friend of mine & he reckons Hoffman is little more than a journeyman, not all that highly regarded (he described him as "at best, a Currie Cup back-up player") & that he'll not last beyond the 3 month deal. He's fourth in the Sharks scrum half pecking order and that's only because Cameron Wright has gone to join Montpellier.

phog

DelMcG wrote: »

Hasn't been confirmed by Leinster but it was all over the SA press in recent days.

Had a word with a Saffa friend of mine & he reckons Hoffman is little more than a journeyman, not all that highly regarded (he described him as "at best, a Currie Cup back-up player") & that he'll not last beyond the 3 month deal. He's fourth in the Sharks scrum half pecking order and that's only because Cameron Wright has gone to join Montpellier.

He's being signed for WCup cover. Last season Munster had Neil Cronin as cover while Murray and Sheridan were out injured.

I've no idea of how good or bad Hoffman is but you're not going to pick up a Reddan or Boss for three months during a World Cup.

DelMcG

phog wrote: »

He's being signed for WCup cover. Last season Munster had Neil Cronin as cover while Murray and Sheridan were out injured.

I've no idea of how good or bad Hoffman is but you're not going to pick up a Reddan or Boss for three months during a World Cup.

No, indeed you're not but I think the concern a lot of Leinster fans have (and rightly so) is that this lad being brought in will further hamper the progress of Luke McGrath (who really seemed to get the thin end of the wedge from MOC last season in favour of an out-of-form Boss) and to a lesser extent, Nick McCarthy.

If he is being brought in as a bench option with Luke as starter, then it's fine, but if the plan is that he's #9 and Luke is #21 for the first three months of the season, I think it's a questionable acquisition.

molloyjh

DelMcG wrote: »

No, indeed you're not but I think the concern a lot of Leinster fans have (and rightly so) is that this lad being brought in will further hamper the progress of Luke McGrath (who really seemed to get the thin end of the wedge from MOC last season in favour of an out-of-form Boss) and to a lesser extent, Nick McCarthy.

If he is being brought in as a bench option with Luke as starter, then it's fine, but if the plan is that he's #9 and Luke is #21 for the first three months of the season, I think it's a questionable acquisition.

He's just squad cover. If we lose Reddan and Boss to the RWC squad (and that would say a lot about Irish scrum-halves if we do) then a single injury would leave us with just McCarthy who has no senior experience at all. I can't see anything to worry about here.

irishbucsfan

DelMcG wrote: »

No, indeed you're not but I think the concern a lot of Leinster fans have (and rightly so) is that this lad being brought in will further hamper the progress of Luke McGrath (who really seemed to get the thin end of the wedge from MOC last season in favour of an out-of-form Boss) and to a lesser extent, Nick McCarthy.

If he is being brought in as a bench option with Luke as starter, then it's fine, but if the plan is that he's #9 and Luke is #21 for the first three months of the season, I think it's a questionable acquisition.

The reason we went after him is because Nick McCarthy is injured, supposedly. If Nick McCarthy's injury is the motivator then I'd hope we'll see McGrath starting ahead of Hoffman.

Podge_irl

Meh, if he is as average as claimed and McGrath couldn't get past him into the starting line-up than it wouldn't say much for McGrath anyway.

.ak

DelMcG wrote: »

No, indeed you're not but I think the concern a lot of Leinster fans have (and rightly so) is that this lad being brought in will further hamper the progress of Luke McGrath (who really seemed to get the thin end of the wedge from MOC last season in favour of an out-of-form Boss) and to a lesser extent, Nick McCarthy.

If he is being brought in as a bench option with Luke as starter, then it's fine, but if the plan is that he's #9 and Luke is #21 for the first three months of the season, I think it's a questionable acquisition.

If Luke is good enough he'll start ahead of him. Nobody is hampering Luke's progress.

Interested Observer

Ugh.

How many players have we seen have a rocky start to their careers only to develop into fine players. Murray and Jackson are two recent examples in Ireland. If they played for Leinster the public opinion in this thread would have been to tear their contracts up.

McGrath has never been backed by a Leinster coach. He's worked off scraps of game time here and there. The only way he's going to improve is with games and more games. This "if he's not good enough to start ahead of player X then tough ****" argument is utter rubbish considering where he is in his career.

.ak

Nah, I'm sorry I don't buy that. Coaches tend to have more access to a player than we ever well, and a better formed opinion.

If McGrath is good enough he'll start. If this SA fella starts over him it's because he's better or more suited to what the coach wants.

Nobody has denied McGrath the opportunity to play for Leinster.


Murray and Jackson have always been exceptional players. Sure, Murray was parachuted into the Irish team when he shouldn't have been, but he was doing all the right things until that point, he was a solid player. Jackson was tearing it up at A level and pushed the incumbent starter out of the side completely for Ulster.

The same is not applicable to McGrath, who has blown hot n cold whenever given the opportunity.. But believe me when I say coaches do not make up their mind on a player based on a cameo or the odd poor game. It's based on a season of working with the player, during off-season and behind scenes during training.

shuffol

.ak wrote: »

Nah, I'm sorry I don't buy that. Coaches tend to have more access to a player than we ever well, and a better formed opinion.

If McGrath is good enough he'll start. If this SA fella starts over him it's because he's better or more suited to what the coach wants.

Nobody has denied McGrath the opportunity to play for Leinster.


Murray and Jackson have always been exceptional players. Sure, Murray was parachuted into the Irish team when he shouldn't have been, but he was doing all the right things until that point, he was a solid player. Jackson was tearing it up at A level and pushed the incumbent starter out of the side completely for Ulster.

The same is not applicable to McGrath, who has blown hot n cold whenever given the opportunity.. But believe me when I say coaches do not make up their mind on a player based on a cameo or the odd poor game. It's based on a season of working with the player, during off-season and behind scenes during training.

I generally agree but there are plenty of instances where you'll have a promising young player waiting for an injury to get a decent run and when they do they never look back.

Buer

Jackson and Murray were light years ahead of McGrath in what they displayed in their first 10 or so appearances for Ulster and Munster respectively. They were genuinely better options than the incumbents and were rewarded; they certainly weren't cases of young players being given a crack to learn the ropes.

Interested Observer

Buer wrote: »

Jackson and Murray were light years ahead of McGrath in what they displayed in their first 10 or so appearances for Ulster and Munster respectively. They were genuinely better options than the incumbents and were rewarded; they certainly weren't cases of young players being given a crack to learn the ropes.

Jackson wasn't, sorry. He was like a little lost child in his very early Ulster caps. But he was backed because it was clear how talented he was.

Tox56

Interested Observer wrote: »

Jackson wasn't, sorry. He was like a little lost child in his very early Ulster caps. But he was backed because it was clear how talented he was.

Ulster were also badly lacking in serious alternatives, although you could argue Leinster are too

Podge_irl

Interested Observer wrote: »

Ugh.

How many players have we seen have a rocky start to their careers only to develop into fine players. Murray and Jackson are two recent examples in Ireland. If they played for Leinster the public opinion in this thread would have been to tear their contracts up.

McGrath has never been backed by a Leinster coach. He's worked off scraps of game time here and there. The only way he's going to improve is with games and more games. This "if he's not good enough to start ahead of player X then tough ****" argument is utter rubbish considering where he is in his career.

I haven't written anyone off. I didn't even comment on McGrath's talent or otherwise.

But if he's not good enough to start ahead of what is, by all accounts, a sunstandard journeyman without much experience who is here on a short term deal then he's obviously failed to convince 2 seperate coaching teams that he's worth any kind of investment at all and he would want to look at why that is.

Podge_irl

Interested Observer wrote: »

Jackson wasn't, sorry. He was like a little lost child in his very early Ulster caps. But he was backed because it was clear how talented he was.

No, he was like a clearly very young and completely inexperienced but talented player.

Besides, giving McGrath a run of 50 games in a row won't do much good if he still can't pass the bloody ball properly