Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

Uriel.

.ak wrote: »

Aren't those the one-use handwarmers?

That'd be a particularly pointless inclusion in the pack so.
I get great use of the trolley token from last year - sure it won't be useful for everyone, but a one use item is just pointless if you ask me.

total former

thomond2006 wrote: »

So where does Kurt McQuilkin fit into this? My understanding is he is/was an interim appointment like Cullen. Given his previous success at Leinster all effort should be made to make him permanent IMO.

Yes, interim coach.

When Kiss moves to Ulster, McQuilkin will become Irish defence coach.

You heard it here first (cos I just made it up there a second ago).

Thanos

.ak wrote: »

Aren't those the one-use handwarmers?

I had a pair that looked a little smaller then the one in the pic, they were multi use ones. You had to press it to activate it (starts to heat up and crystalise), then when you get home you put them in boiling water and they go back to a liquid state.

Could be one of those..........

jacothelad

mailforkev wrote: »

Handwarmer in the pack this year, handy when freezing your tits off at the winter matches. Hopefully whilst watching Leo's glorious Leinster renaissance...

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/news/13708.php#.VbYfwkW5M-A

Do they do a tit warmer? :D

awec

jacothelad wrote: »

Do they do a tit warmer? :D

Two handwarmers and a roll of duct tape!

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

In all fairness though I'd find it hard to blame Leo in this instance. I'd look more at the board if this doesn't work out. They took a punt on MOC and it didn't work out, these things happen. But he had a good CV so it wasn't a shot in the dark. It was very much a rational and logical decision. This is the very opposite, and so is far riskier than any of the last few appointments. While it couldn't be said that we saw the issues with MOC coming it can very much be said of Leo.

This is what I don't understand. How on earth can you say you're going to blame the board when you have access to absolutely no information on this? For all we know nobody wanted the job and Leo was the only candidate available, so how could we blame them for making the wrong choice when there was only one choice? (in that example)

Why does there have to be someone to blame for everything? If this doesn't work out it's very possible that neither the coach nor the board are at fault.

Redgirl82

Pity the Leinster mug is gone....

As mentioned the Leinster shopping trolley coin was handy

Not sure what you would need the "Gloss laminated memorabilia box" for? to take items from the gift pack to give to people as presents????

sydthebeat

irishbucsfan wrote: »

This is what I don't understand. How on earth can you say you're going to blame the board when you have access to absolutely no information on this? For all we know nobody wanted the job and Leo was the only candidate available, so how could we blame them for making the wrong choice when there was only one choice? (in that example)

Why does there have to be someone to blame for everything? If this doesn't work out it's very possible that neither the coach nor the board are at fault.

why does the decision have to be made now?

MOC is barely 3 months out and now we're saying that they gave up looking for people? especially in the months leading to the RWC?

There would have been nothing wrong with offering Leo, an unproven coach with no head coach experience, 6 months or even the full season, to proves his worth..... and if goals arent met, then that gives the management time to have someone else lined up.

they basically given an ex-player, with no head coaching experience, and no coaching experience outside of leinster, a 2 year head coach contract.

Any way you look at it its an incredibly huge gamble.

JaCrispy

Redgirl82 wrote: »

Pity the Leinster mug is gone....

I was happy to see the back of Matt O'Connor

redmca2

sydthebeat wrote: »

why does the decision have to be made now?

MOC is barely 3 months out and now we're saying that they gave up looking for people? especially in the months leading to the RWC?

There would have been nothing wrong with offering Leo, an unproven coach with no head coach experience, 6 months or even the full season, to proves his worth..... and if goals arent met, then that gives the management time to have someone else lined up.

they basically given an ex-player, with no head coaching experience, and no coaching experience outside of leinster, a 2 year head coach contract.

Any way you look at it its an incredibly huge gamble.

Totally agree, it's a huge risk. There is a world of difference between being a first class captain and a top class coach.

A captain is willing to die for his team and his team mates. A coach has to put individual loyalty aside and and be willing to "kill" a player (and if necessary his future at Leinster) for the good of the team regardless of personal acquaintances which Leo still has with a lot of the players.

irishbucsfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

why does the decision have to be made now?

MOC is barely 3 months out and now we're saying that they gave up looking for people? especially in the months leading to the RWC?

There would have been nothing wrong with offering Leo, an unproven coach with no head coach experience, 6 months or even the full season, to proves his worth..... and if goals arent met, then that gives the management time to have someone else lined up.

they basically given an ex-player, with no head coaching experience, and no coaching experience outside of leinster, a 2 year head coach contract.

Any way you look at it its an incredibly huge gamble.

Except there absolutely is something wrong with offering him a one year deal. A huge amount of what you do as a head coach is not week-to-week preperation, there's very little value in an interim role like that for anyone without having a concrete plan in place for what is coming afterwards. A short-term deal during the world cup would be fine if they had a better candidate already organised and already in communication with the staff, but they don't. So you're asking this guy to do an impossible job unless you give him complete and full backing, and if i was in Cullen's position I don't think I'd be interested in accepting anything like that.

vienne86

JaCrispy wrote: »

I was happy to see the back of Matt O'Connor

I was too.

But equally, when he was appointed, I had very high hopes for his tenure.

None of us has any idea how Leo will work out as head coach, but I think a lot of people, myself included, would have misgivings about someone who was part of the team a year ago taking over has head coach now.

JaCrispy

vienne86 wrote: »

I was too.

But equally, when he was appointed, I had very high hopes for his tenure.

None of us has any idea how Leo will work out as head coach, but I think a lot of people, myself included, would have misgivings about someone who was part of the team a year ago taking over has head coach now.

Well my comment was tongue in cheek/pun. But I agree with everything you say there.

sydthebeat

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So you're asking this guy to do an impossible job unless you give him complete and full backing, and if i was in Cullen's position I don't think I'd be interested in accepting anything like that.

Sorry but in all due respect to Leo, he isnt in that position of strength to demand any such assurances. He should be looking on any interim appointment as a bonus on his career ladder as coach, with possibility of permanency at the end of the interim period. Basic good management really.

irishbucsfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

Sorry but in all due respect to Leo, he isnt in that position of strength to demand any such assurances. He should be looking on any interim appointment as a bonus on his career ladder as coach, with possibility of permanency at the end of the interim period. Basic good management really.

Basic good management in a case where we have no viable alternatives would mean that whatever is good for Cullen is good for Leinster. I also think Dawson and the guys are fairly well versed in what constitutes "basic" good management to be honest...

The people here making definitive statements about what a terrible decision this is have access to none of the facts. If the truth is that the board have contacted potential candidates and found no interest or little likelihood of a better candidate becoming available in the near future, then this is absolutely the only way to handle the appointment of Leo Cullen.

I think probably the very best way to handle this would be to announce the deal without announcing the number of years at all, just announce that he will be full time head coach, sign a 2 year contract with him, and then move on from it and let him focus on getting the squad right for September.

.ak

sydthebeat wrote: »

Sorry but in all due respect to Leo, he isnt in that position of strength to demand any such assurances. He should be looking on any interim appointment as a bonus on his career ladder as coach, with possibility of permanency at the end of the interim period. Basic good management really.

I think you're confusing merit with career management. Any good employee should be thinking of number one first.

If you had to step in to another person's role (more senior) in work because that person left, would you want to work for the same money you're on, and without a contract?

As much as I disagree with the whole situation, Leo would have to look after himself and regardless of whether or not he 'deserves' the position, it's unreasonable to think he wouldn't fight for a better position and contract if asked to do the work.

awec

He can ask for the contract all he wants but he has absolutely nothing to back up his demands with and Leinster would have (or should have) been in total control of any negotiations. Even getting the gig for 1 year would be more than he could reasonably have expected at this stage in his career.

I do not buy that giving him a long deal is the only way to handle his appointment. In the coaching world the guy is a nobody.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

He can ask for the contract all he wants but he has absolutely nothing to back up his demands with and Leinster would have (or should have) been in total control of any negotiations.

I do not buy that giving him a long deal is the only way to handle his appointment. In the coaching world the guy is a nobody.

Why do you think Leinster would be in total control in any negotiations? Maybe if there were decent alternatives out there.

What exactly if their leverage... "If you don't accept these terms we've read that Declan Kidney has just bought a house in Goatstown"

sydthebeat

its possibly all just show anyway if the plan really is with Leo on a trial run, with a contingency plan that if Leo doesnt work out, or another viable option becomes available, that he'd be subsumed back into the coaching squad.

in that case the announcement is nothing more than a public backing of him, which makes sense.

sydthebeat

.ak wrote: »

If you had to step in to another person's role (more senior) in work because that person left, would you want to work for the same money you're on, and without a contract?

happens all the time actually, interim or trial periods are common place.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Why do you think Leinster would be in total control in any negotiations? Maybe if there were decent alternatives out there.

What exactly if their leverage... "If you don't accept these terms we've read that Declan Kidney has just bought a house in Goatstown"

Because any other scenario makes absolutely no sense.

You think Leo Cullen is walking into meetings saying "I'm you're only option" and Leinster are saying "yikes, you're right! Here's three years!" ?

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Because any other scenario makes absolutely no sense.

You think Leo Cullen is walking into meetings saying "I'm you're only option" and Leinster are saying "yikes, you're right! Here's three years!" ?

So lets say Cullen says he's happy to do the job but he wants more than a single year contract and Leinster disagree for some reason. Suddenly Leinster are left with no head coach and very few candidates, sounds like a dominant position alright!

Neil3030

I would be absolutely astounded if Leinster weren't able to sound out a viable alternative candidate for the head coaching role. Not saying they definitely did or didn't, but that would beggar belief, and also really show how far both the team and the Pro 12 have regressed, relative to the other major European sides and leagues.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So lets say Cullen says he's happy to do the job but he wants more than a single year contract and Leinster disagree for some reason. Suddenly Leinster are left with no head coach and very few candidates, sounds like a dominant position alright!

Then Leinster move on.

Not appointing a permanent head coach right now is a better scenario than appointing a total novice on a long term deal. Leinster can't be held to ransom by one guy cause he happens to be the only interested horse in the race at this moment.

.ak

sydthebeat wrote: »

happens all the time actually, interim or trial periods are common place.

Yes but when they advertise that role for a perm contract I'm sure you'll be putting your name forward first.

jm08

Sacking the coach mid contract is unusual in rugby, so I'd imagine potential coaches might not find such clubs/provinces as attractive as others. Leinster need to be seen now to be treating coaches well and willing to give good contracts.

Leinster also need to show some stability as it will be very difficult to attract both playing staff and other coaching staff if these potential new employees don't know who their coach will be.

If Leo gets a good backs coach, I think Leinster might do very well. Leo has just had a very difficult year where he probably learned an awful lot more if everything had gone better.

Podge_irl

He wasn't sacked and it's hardly unheard of either.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Then Leinster move on.

Not appointing a permanent head coach right now is a better scenario than appointing a total novice on a long term deal. Leinster can't be held to ransom by one guy cause he happens to be the only interested horse in the race at this moment.

Ah right so they'd change head coach AGAIN a month away from the start of the season. Sounds like exactly what we need...

Also "held to ransom" is absolutely ridiculous. A 2 year contract instead of a 1 year contract for a head coach is not holding Leinster to ransom, especially when we know it's easy to break these contracts. Let's try to keep some perspective here!

jm08

Neil3030 wrote: »

I would be absolutely astounded if Leinster weren't able to sound out a viable alternative candidate for the head coaching role. Not saying they definitely did or didn't, but that would beggar belief, and also really show how far both the team and the Pro 12 have regressed, relative to the other major European sides and leagues.

Its very poor timing with it being a world cup year. A short term / interim coach might have worked if say if Gaffney was around or some senior coaches like Gert Small or John Plumtree could have been loaned from Ireland to Leinster after the World Cup.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Basic good management in a case where we have no viable alternatives would mean that whatever is good for Cullen is good for Leinster. I also think Dawson and the guys are fairly well versed in what constitutes "basic" good management to be honest...

The people here making definitive statements about what a terrible decision this is have access to none of the facts. If the truth is that the board have contacted potential candidates and found no interest or little likelihood of a better candidate becoming available in the near future, then this is absolutely the only way to handle the appointment of Leo Cullen.

I think probably the very best way to handle this would be to announce the deal without announcing the number of years at all, just announce that he will be full time head coach, sign a 2 year contract with him, and then move on from it and let him focus on getting the squad right for September.

None of the facts? I'm pretty sure that Leo has never been a head coach of a rugby club in his life is a fact. That he has only a single year as forwards coach of any team ever is also a fact. Both of those are incredibly pertinent to the discussion. His experience is about as minimal as you can get. We don't have access to all of the facts, but we have access to some.

It shouldn't really come as that much of a surprise that there is a lack of realistic candidates at such short notice in a year when we'll be missing most of our first string squad for over half the year. These things are facts as well let's not forget. I would hope that Leo is professional enough not to neglect the long-term if he got an interim gig with a view to making it permanent if he can deliver on set objectives. It ensures that if Leo doesn't step up he's not left hanging himself and Leinster aren't left with an under performing coach. But to neglect the future planning would be shooting himself in the foot should he get the extension as well let's not forget. There will almost certainly be more realistic candidates that will become available in the next 12 months who would love to work with a club side with numerous Lions and 6 Nations champions. We should be looking at each of these over the year and if Leo isn't stepping up we should replace him. If he is we should extend his contract for another 2 years.

All that said I wouldn't object too much to what you suggested in your last paragraph. It would still be a risk but it would allow Leo and Leinster to save face if things were obviously not working after the first season.