Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

molloyjh · 27-07-2015 4:54pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So lets say Cullen says he's happy to do the job but he wants more than a single year contract and Leinster disagree for some reason. Suddenly Leinster are left with no head coach and very few candidates, sounds like a dominant position alright!

Ah here, you're giving out about others not knowing the facts. You simply don't have any idea how many others, if any, applied for the position. If Leo said he wanted more than 1 year then either they moved on and looked at someone else or they put in place a contract with strict conditions on what he needs to achieve in his first year. If he doesn't achieve them then he can be dismissed.

Leinsters medium term future should not be held to ransom by someone with 1 years experience as an assistant coach, regardless of the circumstances.

irishbucsfan · 27-07-2015 4:58pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Ah here, you're giving out about others not knowing the facts. You simply don't have any idea how many others, if any, applied for the position. If Leo said he wanted more than 1 year then either they moved on and looked at someone else or they put in place a contract with strict conditions on what he needs to achieve in his first year. If he doesn't achieve them then he can be dismissed.

Leinsters medium term future should not be held to ransom by someone with 1 years experience as an assistant coach, regardless of the circumstances.

Before I said that if there were decent alternatives it would be a different story, you've just jumped in after this out of context, the lack of alternatives is a conceit.

Also held to ransom again?! What is Leo, a robber baron? Lock up your sons and daughters, Leo is in town!

jm08 · 27-07-2015 5:07pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

He wasn't sacked and it's hardly unheard of either.

All things equal, Even the choice between two clubs, one known to have a high turnover of coaching staff and one known for its staff to usually see out their contracts, which one would you go for?

Bear in mind many of these coaches have family and are moving from other countries with consequent change of school etc. for their family. In England its quite possible that they could at least stay there, not so in Ireland. They have to leave as they are not going to get a job with any other Province. Look at Mark McCall - after Ulster went to France and is now in England.

molloyjh · 27-07-2015 5:44pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Before I said that if there were decent alternatives it would be a different story, you've just jumped in after this out of context, the lack of alternatives is a conceit.

Also held to ransom again?! What is Leo, a robber baron? Lock up your sons and daughters, Leo is in town!

It's a turn of phrase....

Podge_irl · 27-07-2015 6:17pm

jm08 wrote: »

All things equal, Even the choice between two clubs, one known to have a high turnover of coaching staff and one known for its staff to usually see out their contracts, which one would you go for?

Bear in mind many of these coaches have family and are moving from other countries with consequent change of school etc. for their family. In England its quite possible that they could at least stay there, not so in Ireland. They have to leave as they are not going to get a job with any other Province. Look at Mark McCall - after Ulster went to France and is now in England.

All things aren't equal so its irrelevant (though the latter obviously). MOC still wasn't fired so again it's irrelevant.

total former · 27-07-2015 6:27pm

molloyjh wrote: »

It's a turn of phrase....

It's a terrible turn of phrase that's been used twice in quick succession. And it's being used in total ignorance of the facts.

Cullen has to look out for number one, but even leaving that aside, if he was happy to take a one year deal while someone "better" was located, the same critics would be saying Leo didn't have the balls to back himself for the permanent job and so isn't the right man.

If the Leinster board felt they were being held to ransom, then they always had the option of PFO'ing him. If he's as bad as he's being made out here, then that's what the board would have done and we'd be no worse off.

Jesus it's going to be a long season.

jm08 · 27-07-2015 7:08pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

All things aren't equal so its irrelevant (though the latter obviously). MOC still wasn't fired so again it's irrelevant.

He left a year before his contract was up. Do you think he would be encouraging anyone to coach Leinster or do you think Leinster would be asking him on who he thinks should replace him as happened in the past with previous coaches who left on good terms (Cheika & Schmidt)?

The biggest challenge a new Leinster coach would have coming in from outside is managing expectations. Leo deserves to be given a chance for the first season at least considering the amount disruption there has and there will be this season

wowy · 27-07-2015 7:22pm

http://www.sharksworld.co.za/2015/07/27/sharks-confirm-two-departures/

Conrad Hoffman to join from Sharks on 3 month contract. Anyone know anything about him?

awec · 27-07-2015 7:25pm

He's a 9.

Podge_irl · 27-07-2015 7:29pm

jm08 wrote: »

He left a year before his contract was up.

Amazing, I'm actually aware of that

jm08 wrote: »

Do you think he would be encouraging anyone to coach Leinster or do you think Leinster would be asking him on who he thinks should replace him as happened in the past with previous coaches who left on good terms (Cheika & Schmidt)?

I have no idea. But considering he followed our most successful coach ever, maybe the input of the departing coach isn't necessarily all that useful.

jm08 wrote: »

The biggest challenge a new Leinster coach would have coming in from outside is managing expectations. Leo deserves to be given a chance for the first season at least considering the amount disruption there has and there will be this season

I never said otherwise. But frankly if any coach is put off coming to Leinster because the previous coach decided to leave after two fairly middling seasons then they're not coaches worth considering for the job anyway.

I'm fairly sick of this "managing expectations" nonsense and comments on Leinster's impatient fans. Leinster were ****e against the likes of Treviso and Dragons. Expecting to beat those teams is not lofty, unrealistic idealism.

I have no idea what went on behind the scenes - and nor does anyone else here I would assume. Perhaps Cullen was the best candidate - I wouldn't consider that all that unlikely considering the timeframes involved. I disagree that he needed to be given a long term contract to show faith in him. Lancaster got a short term interim deal and that worked out fine. If Cullen couldn't see that he has lucked into the job in unusual circumstances and would feel unwanted without a long term deal then frankly I don't think he has the right character to be a head coach. He should be looking at this year as a chance to prove himself because he is completely and utterly unproven - and if you wanted to be harsh he is worse than unproven because there are times last season our forward play was ****e.

Hagz · 27-07-2015 7:48pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERH1nHoDAXc

total former · 27-07-2015 7:54pm

wowy wrote: »

http://www.sharksworld.co.za/2015/07/27/sharks-confirm-two-departures/

Conrad Hoffman to join from Sharks on 3 month contract. Anyone know anything about him?

After a quick Google, I'm guessing he is here for the 3 months with little prospect of staying on. Doesn't look like much use tbh.

awec · 27-07-2015 7:56pm

I only watched the first few minutes of that highlight reel but basically it's just him picking the ball up from a ruck and running a few yards with it...

irishbucsfan · 27-07-2015 7:58pm

He's just world cup cover, hopefully Luke McGrath will stay fit and hold down the starting position during the period.

Hagz · 27-07-2015 8:03pm

awec wrote: »

I only watched the first few minutes of that highlight reel but basically it's just him picking the ball up from a ruck and running a few yards with it...

That's the way agent highlight videos go. The first several minutes show his ability to go himself, then it looks at his defence, then his kicking, then his general passing etc.

CatFromHue · 27-07-2015 9:27pm

awec wrote: »

I only watched the first few minutes of that highlight reel but basically it's just him picking the ball up from a ruck and running a few yards with it...

Don't forget the forward pass and the high risk offloads that don't go to hand :pac:

DelMcG · 27-07-2015 10:06pm

Ah, the old Youtube highlight reel. The last refuge of the truly desperate!

I remember when we signed Clint Newland. His only Youtube highlight was him knocking Pek Cowan out stone cold with a single (sucker) punch

The Rape of Lucretia · 27-07-2015 10:55pm

This is a terrible development. Leinster management really caught with their pants down. While I would support the idea that Leinster is better off with anyone, or no one, rather than MOC, it does look like we have got the no one.
So pretty crappy, and looks like they didn't really fire MOC, weren't working on a suitable replacement, and only took his resignation because to their surprise, he offered it. The were too slow off the mark, and should have had a suitable replacement lined up much earlier, with sacking him already in their own plans. They should have been reading some of the sharper posters here back a the beginning of the year.

Head coach of Leinster is not the place for recently retired players to be learning their trade. Leo may be a fine coach some day, but the gamble of finding out how good he might be is not one we should be taking. They have no one so they throw him the gig.
Very disappointed.

molloyjh · 27-07-2015 11:15pm

total former wrote: »

It's a terrible turn of phrase that's been used twice in quick succession. And it's being used in total ignorance of the facts.

Cullen has to look out for number one, but even leaving that aside, if he was happy to take a one year deal while someone "better" was located, the same critics would be saying Leo didn't have the balls to back himself for the permanent job and so isn't the right man.

If the Leinster board felt they were being held to ransom, then they always had the option of PFO'ing him. If he's as bad as he's being made out here, then that's what the board would have done and we'd be no worse off.

Jesus it's going to be a long season.

It's being used in the hypothetical situation IBF was putting forward, not in total ignorance of the facts.

And very few are suggesting he take the job for a year while someone better is found. Most of us are saying that he should be given the job on an interim basis to assess his suitability. If he pans out then great, give him a longer term contract. If he doesn't then don't. In that case Leo would very much be backing himself.

As for the "if he's as bad as he's being made out here" comment I strongly suggest you re-read posts. All people are saying is that he is massively inexperienced and has yet to show that he is in any way qualified for the job. I don't think even you or IBF could dispute that in fairness. There simply is no getting away from the fact that we are looking at appointing a total novice to the role of head coach of what is one of the biggest clubs in Europe. If you can't handle that being questioned then I'm not sure what more to say.

It could turn out that he's great for the job and that Leinster do well under him. If so great, I can't imagine we'd all be anything but happy. But this is a risk, plain and simple. Not to acknowledge or discuss that would be a bit odd on a forum like this.

irishbucsfan · 27-07-2015 11:43pm

molloyjh wrote: »

It's being used in the hypothetical situation IBF was putting forward, not in total ignorance of the facts.

And very few are suggesting he take the job for a year while someone better is found. Most of us are saying that he should be given the job on an interim basis to assess his suitability. If he pans out then great, give him a longer term contract. If he doesn't then don't. In that case Leo would very much be backing himself.

As for the "if he's as bad as he's being made out here" comment I strongly suggest you re-read posts. All people are saying is that he is massively inexperienced and has yet to show that he is in any way qualified for the job. I don't think even you or IBF could dispute that in fairness. There simply is no getting away from the fact that we are looking at appointing a total novice to the role of head coach of what is one of the biggest clubs in Europe. If you can't handle that being questioned then I'm not sure what more to say.

It could turn out that he's great for the job and that Leinster do well under him. If so great, I can't imagine we'd all be anything but happy. But this is a risk, plain and simple. Not to acknowledge or discuss that would be a bit odd on a forum like this.

Firstly I agree with you that I don't think anyone is being openly critical of Cullen's ability. I think people are just getting their complaints in early, which I really resent.

As for the bolded bit, that is only remotely relevant if that stature of the club means that better candidates are knocking on the door looking for the job. At the moment it looks like there's noone better available, so the stature of the club (which is beyond question) isn't actually relevant. The board have to appoint the best candidate who is available to them, I'm sure they've been in communication with numerous people who are going to become available in the next 12 months. If Leo is the best of them then I'm happy for him. I'm also happy to give him multiple years, because I think based on his potential he'll be a great coach.

There is a far bigger issue facing us at the moment anyway, which is the backs coach issue. I personally think we need someone with half backs experience, we need to produce a long-term successor at 9 and we also need to produce a real alternative to Sexton at 10. We need someone who can come in and coach up guys like McGrath and Byrne, I wonder if Sexton can convice ROG to come over

sydthebeat · 28-07-2015 12:25am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

the board have to appoint the best candidate who is available to them

It's not the appointment of leo that's the issue, we all knew (had a fair idea) he was going to be the head coach during most of this season. It's the two year deal that's the issue as it puts it out there that the job is not available for anyone who may come available after the world cup of before the super xviii season. Why discount these possibilities before they happen? Has leo some enough to demand such a top level job for such a period? Very hard to argue that he has.

As for "best man available"? No one knows how many, if any, other candidates were approached. Or how hard the manager actually tried and what offers were put forward. So that argument is build on a flimsy foundation.

Look, I would be delighted if Leo is a success, but the question is is the risk acceptable if we are here again next season in the very same position?
Is this shot in the dark (which it very much is) what Leinster rugby needs right now?
Id argue not.

irishbucsfan · 28-07-2015 1:08am

sydthebeat wrote: »

As for "best man available"? No one knows how many, if any, other candidates were approached. Or how hard the manager actually tried and what offers were put forward. So that argument is build on a flimsy foundation.

Yes, it's built on a VERY flimsy foundation. The chances that the Leinster board would not make a very strong and detailed search for their next coach (given they previously unearthed Cheika and Schmidt) are extremely, extremely unlikely. Why anyone would think it's the case is beyond me, but obviously many do.

total former · 28-07-2015 7:05am

molloyjh wrote: »

It's being used in the hypothetical situation IBF was putting forward, not in total ignorance of the facts.

And very few are suggesting he take the job for a year while someone better is found. Most of us are saying that he should be given the job on an interim basis to assess his suitability. If he pans out then great, give him a longer term contract. If he doesn't then don't. In that case Leo would very much be backing himself.

As for the "if he's as bad as he's being made out here" comment I strongly suggest you re-read posts. All people are saying is that he is massively inexperienced and has yet to show that he is in any way qualified for the job. I don't think even you or IBF could dispute that in fairness. There simply is no getting away from the fact that we are looking at appointing a total novice to the role of head coach of what is one of the biggest clubs in Europe. If you can't handle that being questioned then I'm not sure what more to say.

It could turn out that he's great for the job and that Leinster do well under him. If so great, I can't imagine we'd all be anything but happy. But this is a risk, plain and simple. Not to acknowledge or discuss that would be a bit odd on a forum like this.

Of course he's a risk and a novice. I didn't "acknowledge" that because it's been said so many times (including by me) that it's totally redundant, it's like acknowledging that Leinster play in blue; it's a given.

But Cheika was a massive risk. Schmidt was less of a risk but still a risk. O'Connor was a safe bet. I don't mind if we take another risk.

What I do object to is the suggestion that Leo is forcing the board's hand and screwing us over to get himself a better deal. That's the most negative interpretation of the situation possible. If I've misread the context then apologies.

Lots of people here taking serious exception to the notion that the Leinster fans are too demanding and impatient. This is a chance to disprove that. We're not off to a flyer.

molloyjh · 28-07-2015 11:04am

total former wrote: »

What I do object to is the suggestion that Leo is forcing the board's hand and screwing us over to get himself a better deal. That's the most negative interpretation of the situation possible. If I've misread the context then apologies.

Nobody was suggesting that. IBF put it forward as a possibility when awec was talking about not giving Leo 2-3 years, i.e. what if Leo would only take the gig if it was for more than a year.

total former wrote: »

Lots of people here taking serious exception to the notion that the Leinster fans are too demanding and impatient. This is a chance to disprove that. We're not off to a flyer.

If you look at what people are actually saying you'll see most just want to mitigate the level of risk by giving Leo a year to see if he's up to it. If he is then the general consensus is that he should get a longer term contract. If he isn't then neither he nor Leinster should be exposed to the additional damage by continuing with the contract or terminating it early.

This isn't just about Leinster. It's also about a guy we all (I hope) admire and respect. I don't want to see him go down the Martin Johnston root. I want more for him than that. That isn't being too demanding, that's being realistic in my book. We're not asking for Joe Schmidt MKII to lead us to an all conquering 2 or 3 year period. We're also not being at all impatient. We're not demanding or expecting immediate success. Many of us just feel that committing to a multi-year contract with a total novice doesn't need to happen. And it may be better for both parties to take it slow and easy to start with. To not be in a rush is hardly a sign of impatience.

The_Captain · 28-07-2015 11:23am

This idea that we're all impatient glory-hunters annoys me.

People weren't happy with MOC because the team played like trash, not because we didn't win anything.

We got to a HEC SF and pushed Toulon right to the end. On paper, we did alright under MOC.
The truth is we played awful rugby, went backwards in defence and our attacking plays and lack of tries were laughed at.

Leinster fans expect professionalism and competence in the team and in the management. Appointing an inexperienced head coach was a poor decision. What did Cullen bring to the interview that Dempsey and McQuilkan couldn't?
Extending his contract before a game is played is a poor decision.

I'll give him a chance, but Cullen will be judged on the basis that's he's the head coach of one of the top clubs in rugby with the expectation of silverware, not on the basis that's he's a new guy learning the ropes.

If he can't do the job, he shouldn't have the job.

awec · 28-07-2015 11:30am

Replace Leo Cullen with someone who didn't play for Leinster, or some unheard of recently-retired overseas player and there'd be nobody saying this is a good idea IMO.

Larbre34 · 28-07-2015 11:39am

awec wrote: »

Replace Leo Cullen with someone who didn't play for Leinster, or some unheard of recently-retired overseas player and there'd be nobody saying this is a good idea IMO.

Agreed.

But we have to make the best of it and its still better than if we had gone into another season with MOC. The fans need to back it.

scott1974 · 28-07-2015 11:45am

awec wrote: »

Replace Leo Cullen with someone who didn't play for Leinster, or some unheard of recently-retired overseas player and there'd be nobody saying this is a good idea IMO.

...fair enough, except he's been there a year already and hasn't lit the place on fire....if anything the forwards play has regressed under Leo.
So, I think fans have a reason to be skeptical.
That's not saying it won't work out.

irishbucsfan · 28-07-2015 12:29pm

awec wrote: »

Replace Leo Cullen with someone who didn't play for Leinster, or some unheard of recently-retired overseas player and there'd be nobody saying this is a good idea IMO.

If there was noone better than that fictitious players you've created and if that fictitious player had been a similar player to Leo (IE described as effectively an extra member of the coaching staff while he was still playing and someone who is the subject of Joe Schmidt anecdotes regarding his ability to bring a squad together) then my opinion would be the exact same, get behind the guy.

I also think there's a massive misconception among certain rugby fans about what it is a Head Coach does at a professional rugby club and their responsibility and relevance, so that would play into things as well.

sydthebeat · 28-07-2015 12:40pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

..... my opinion would be the exact same, get behind the guy.
.

and theres the rub.....

whos not getting behind him?

thats not what the argument is AT ALL

Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

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