Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

dub_skav

OSI wrote: »

New training kit looks alright:

Woo hoo, we signed Stanley Matthews

.ak

I know training jerseys are never really fitted like playing jerseys, but does the fit look really odd to anyone else? :P

Heroditas

.ak wrote: »

I know training jerseys are never really fitted like playing jerseys, but does the fit look really odd to anyone else? :P

Yeah they do look a bit weird but that might be due to the "sailor boy" collars.

They were probably just thrown a few jerseys and told to go and walk up and down the pitch to get a few shots done for PR.


Lads - "ah here, these don't fit properly"

PR guy - "fcuk it, who cares? By the time you're back at the province training next, it'll nearly be time to parade the next new kit!"

awec

.ak wrote: »

Because there's a lot more to just thinking about what players to pick and tactics. A lot of what a coach does is planning for the future, you simply can't do that effectively if you think you're out the door in 6 months.

I don't buy this at all. Why can't he do it if he's told he has a year to show he's worth a contract?

No matter what he will be judged in 1 years time on his on field performance. He has as much a chance of being hopeless as he does of being good.

awec

total former wrote: »

And if you're on a trial basis, everything you do will be about winning the next game and sealing the deal. Not about player progression, not about trying new combinations, not about new tactics. It's not a good idea.

Everything he does will be about winning the next game. You honestly think Cullen will survive if Leinster have a season just like or worse than this one?

Not a hope. Leinster will be straight on to getting a proven head coach and he'll be demoted.

total former

awec wrote: »

I don't buy this at all. Why can't he do it if he's told he has a year to show he's worth a contract?

No matter what he will be judged in 1 years time on his on field performance. He has as much a chance of being hopeless as he does of being good.

Because he wouldn't have a year to show anything. Leinster would have to make their decision on whether to go looking again in February next year, March at the latest. That's a lot less than a year, it's before we'd know how the Pro12 will shake up, it's after the coach would have been missing 15-20 players for the RWC and 6N and before we could see if he can recruit new signings.

Is it really fair to judge anyone (either favourably or negatively) on that?

total former

awec wrote: »

Everything he does will be about winning the next game. You honestly think Cullen will survive if Leinster have a season just like or worse than this one?

Not a hope. Leinster will be straight on to getting a proven head coach and he'll be demoted.

That's not my point. You try new things and new players with the risk of losing a couple of games so as to increase your chances of winning more down the line. But if you're totally dependent on quick gratification for your future, then you won't take those risks.

awec

awec wrote: »

I don't buy this at all. Why can't he do it if he's told he has a year to show he's worth a contract?

No matter what he will be judged in 1 years time on his on field performance. He has as much a chance of being hopeless as he does of being good.

TBH I don't agree with a one year contract for Leo. Give him two or give him none. We have a bit of an ageing squad and the one good thing about Leo is that if he can bring through more junior talent and develop what we have within the context of the culture that we had under Cheika and Schmidt then he is going to need more than a season and it's really going to build a platform for us.

awec

total former wrote: »

Because he wouldn't have a year to show anything. Leinster would have to make their decision on whether to go looking again in February next year, March at the latest. That's a lot less than a year, it's before we'd know how the Pro12 will shake up, it's after the coach would have been missing 15-20 players for the RWC and 6N and before we could see if he can recruit new signings.

Is it really fair to judge anyone (either favourably or negatively) on that?

They'll be making that decision next March again anyway.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

They'll be making that decision next March again anyway.

Do you think that if Leo Cullen was given a 1 year contract Leinster would be making a decision in March as to whether his contract would be extended?

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Do you think that if Leo Cullen was given a 1 year contract Leinster would be making a decision in March as to whether his contract would be extended?

Yes.

It will be reviewed either way, the only difference now is whether or not Leinster make it unnecessarily difficult for themselves to replace him next year, a scenario that is not at all unlikely to arise.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Yes.

It will be reviewed either way, the only difference now is whether or not Leinster make it unnecessarily difficult for themselves to replace him next year, a scenario that is not at all unlikely to arise.

That just doesn't work in reality. How bad does a coach have to be that you are going to scrap him in March of his first season with a club, when he's been without his best players for most of the season and had little time to impose his own philosophy. Things would have to be falling apart. At that point you've made a big mistake and the coach is likely going to accept a mutual parting of company anyway. The reality is that in almost any feasible scenario you're going to give the coach the second season, and if you're making that decision in March (for some bizarre reason) all you've done is needlessly hamstrung yourself off the field for the entire season (all of the important player and coaching contracts will be signed and sealed long before March, apart from the fringe guys) and then left yourself with no coach in April and little chance of finding a high calibre candidate (Super XV season underway, Top14/Premiership gigs all sewn up). I don't really see any situation where a 1 year contract makes sense for any club in our situation if you have the option of signing a 2 year one.

Even with a 2 year deal you're going to want to make some form of decision before Christmas 2016 which isn't even ideal, but at least gives the club the opportunity to be competitive.

I reckon I'm onto you awec, you've been sent down here as a spy to get Kidney a job at Leinster to prevent him from becoming involved up north...

ssaye2

http://www.canterbury.com/mens-c1/leinster-t20

https://mobile.twitter.com/OLSCRugby/status/626048090357800960/photo/1

Some pre order gear

Larbre34

.ak wrote: »

The Bath game will be a disaster of clashes!

Its only training kit (mores the pity) Our real jersey will be pink and green and all brands of crazy stuff, Bath neednt worry!

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That just doesn't work in reality. How bad does a coach have to be that you are going to scrap him in March of his first season with a club, when he's been without his best players for most of the season and had little time to impose his own philosophy. Things would have to be falling apart. At that point you've made a big mistake and the coach is likely going to accept a mutual parting of company anyway. The reality is that in almost any feasible scenario you're going to give the coach the second season, and if you're making that decision in March (for some bizarre reason) all you've done is needlessly hamstrung yourself off the field for the entire season (all of the important player and coaching contracts will be signed and sealed long before March, apart from the fringe guys) and then left yourself with no coach in April and little chance of finding a high calibre candidate (Super XV season underway, Top14/Premiership gigs all sewn up). I don't really see any situation where a 1 year contract makes sense for any club in our situation if you have the option of signing a 2 year one.

Even with a 2 year deal you're going to want to make some form of decision before Christmas 2016 which isn't even ideal, but at least gives the club the opportunity to be competitive.

I reckon I'm onto you awec, you've been sent down here as a spy to get Kidney a job at Leinster to prevent him from becoming involved up north...

If Leinster gave Clint Newland a three year head coach contract tomorrow would you still be saying that this is the only thing that makes any sense?

I thought we were a bit mental up in Ulster with our decisions but this absolutely takes the biscuit. Get rid of a coach and replace him with an absolute novice who has absolutely zero experience of managing a team at any level of the game and hand him a two or three year deal.

The sensible approach is to keep him on an interim basis and review it come Christmas / whatever. Giving him a deal after 6 / 8 months of seeing exactly how he is doing is a million times better than giving him a deal based on absolutely nothing. And at least then if someone experienced comes on the market you aren't unnecessarily tied down and secretly wishing you hadn't given him that deal after all.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

If Leinster gave Clint Newland a three year head coach contract tomorrow would you still be saying that this is the only thing that makes any sense?

I thought we were a bit mental up in Ulster with our decisions but this absolutely takes the biscuit. Get rid of a coach and replace him with an absolute novice who has absolutely zero experience of managing a team at any level of the game and hand him a two or three year deal.

The sensible approach is to keep him on an interim basis and review it come Christmas / whatever. Giving him a deal after 6 / 8 months of seeing exactly how he is doing is a million times better than giving him a deal based on absolutely nothing. And at least then if someone experienced comes on the market you aren't unnecessarily tied down and secretly wishing you hadn't given him that deal after all.

I'd be happy enough to give the guy a 12 month contract with the option to extend given that certain metrics are met. Leo should be able to back himself enough to deliver on those (if he's not then he shouldn't be going for the job). And he has the security of knowing that if he does deliver on them then, failing some other major f-up, he'll get a 2 year contract at the end of the season. In that sense both are operating under the assumption that it's a 3 year gig, but neither are digging themselves into a hole they can't easily get out of.

Come January there should be a good indication of how Leo is doing and so if things don't look great other coaches can be approached. Interviews for a position don't have to happen until later in the season so Leinster don't have to commit to anything at that point. Come March/April they should know whether Leo is up to it. If he is then offer him the extension and that is that. If not then start the interviews for the post with a view to appointing someone in June/July.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

If Leinster gave Clint Newland a three year head coach contract tomorrow would you still be saying that this is the only thing that makes any sense?

Are you really trying to compare Leo Cullen to Clint Newland... That's taken the standard of discussion here to new depths!

awec wrote: »

The sensible approach is to keep him on an interim basis and review it come Christmas / whatever. Giving him a deal after 6 / 8 months of seeing exactly how he is doing is a million times better than giving him a deal based on absolutely nothing. And at least then if someone experienced comes on the market you aren't unnecessarily tied down and secretly wishing you hadn't given him that deal after all.

No, it's not sensible. It's completely pointless, and Ive just explained to you why that is. And a 6 month contract is just a laughable concept, it just doesn't work.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Are you really trying to compare Leo Cullen to Clint Newland... That's taken the standard of discussion here to new depths!



No, it's not sensible. It's completely pointless, and Ive just explained to you why that is. And a 6 month contract is just a laughable concept, it just doesn't work.

Why? Cullen's ability as a player is irrelevant when it comes to his ability as a coach. For all you know Cullen could be to team management what Newland was to propping (or worse!).

You haven't really explained why it's pointless. The idea of an interim coach in an already disruptive season is not unworkable.

awec

Anyway, I still think Kidney is your man. He'll end up at Leinster again some day cause he has the old "unfinished business". May as well be now, when Leinster's need is greatest. No better way to restore his reputation and earn himself the love of the men and women of D4.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Why? Cullen's ability as a player is irrelevant when it comes to his ability as a coach. For all you know Cullen could be to team management what Newland was to propping (or worse!).

If Leo Cullen was to coaching what Newland was to propping we wouldn't be having this conversation.

awec wrote: »

You haven't really explained why it's pointless. The idea of an interim coach in an already disruptive season is not unworkable.

I've explained why it's pointless multiple times above actually, you're just ignoring it. It is unworkable and that's why it doesn't happen anywhere else and won't happen for us.

awec

Ok then, replace Newland with someone really good like Owen Finnegan.

Podge_irl

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I've explained why it's pointless multiple times above actually, you're just ignoring it. It is unworkable and that's why it doesn't happen anywhere else and won't happen for us.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/8925568/Stuart-Lancaster-to-be-appointed-interim-England-coach-for-Six-Nations-in-place-of-Martin-Johnson.html

Interested Observer

Didn't the exact interim coach thing happen in nearly identical circumstances to Leinster up in Ulster in the season just gone?

Trojan

My biggest concern about Cullen is from reading his book. From what he wrote he simply does not come across as a strategic high level planner, but more as someone comfortable at the coal face. I think we're looking more for an officer than an experienced NCO here.

irishbucsfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/8925568/Stuart-Lancaster-to-be-appointed-interim-England-coach-for-Six-Nations-in-place-of-Martin-Johnson.html

That's at international level, I've mentioned above it doesn't work at club level. There are many many reasons the two are different.

irishbucsfan

Interested Observer wrote: »

Didn't the exact interim coach thing happen in nearly identical circumstances to Leinster up in Ulster in the season just gone?

No, they appointed a permanent head coach and then brought in an interim guy to fill in the gaps. Just like London Irish while they were waiting for Tom Coventry.

molloyjh

Podge_irl wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/8925568/Stuart-Lancaster-to-be-appointed-interim-England-coach-for-Six-Nations-in-place-of-Martin-Johnson.html

So the idea of an interim coach is workable, and can work out to be a long term gig. Well who'd have thunk it.....

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That's at international level, I've mentioned above it doesn't work at club level. There are many many reasons the two are different.

Surely it's more workable at club level where you have greater access to players and more games with which to build your experience and get things right?

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

So the idea of an interim coach is workable, and can work out to be a long term gig. Well who'd have thunk it.....

Jaysus, there are so many reasons that example doesn't apply here. That's exactly why I said explicitly it doesn't work at club level.

Do you think the RFU had to worry about the October/November negotiations flood? They didn't have to worry about losing George Ford to Wales or missing out on signing Richie McCaw because other nations were selling better offers. They didn't have to worry about the coaching staff issue that Leinster do.

It just doesn't equate to club rugby at all, at representative level (not just international level) you have set blocks of fixtures where you could theoretically (although not very sucessfully I'd imagine) bring in a different staff each time.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, they appointed a permanent head coach and then brought in an interim guy to fill in the gaps. Just like London Irish while they were waiting for Tom Coventry.

What's the difference between Doak getting a year and Cullen getting a year?