Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

vienne86

Luke McGrath got some decent chances last season, and didn't make the most of them IMO. As already posted, if he is good enough, he will start. He should get good chances during the RWC, and I really hope he does well and progresses.

jm08

Interested Observer wrote: »

Ugh.

How many players have we seen have a rocky start to their careers only to develop into fine players. Murray and Jackson are two recent examples in Ireland. If they played for Leinster the public opinion in this thread would have been to tear their contracts up.

McGrath has never been backed by a Leinster coach. He's worked off scraps of game time here and there. The only way he's going to improve is with games and more games. This "if he's not good enough to start ahead of player X then tough ****" argument is utter rubbish considering where he is in his career.

Of all players, that just does not apply to Murray. He got a chance and he took it. Murray put two international scrumhalfs on the bench so decisively both left Munster.

irishbucsfan

I think it's pretty clear why McGrath hasn't been given more game time, in his time on the field he didn't look like a guy ready to take the chance. Jackson certainly looked like he was ready in 2012.

You can do more harm than good pushing a player before he's ready. The idea that the only way you improve is with game time is rubbish, that's never been true at any level, it's just a truism that people should have grown out of years ago. There are some skills that require game time to improve but the balance of it comes off the field. I actually think McGrath is a natural when it comes to those untenables you develop on the field, it's things like his passing which have let him down in the past, and that's a skill that you can't learn by playing more games, it's a skill you learn in the evening midweek.

I'm hopeful for him in the next few months though. He's got a golden opportunity now, not just to show he deserves more game time but to also put pressure on whoever is away for a starting place. Half backs benefit from consistency in selection as well, it really helps with the strategic/tactical side of the game. I'm optimistic that when the World Cup is over we should be having a conversation about where Reddan/Boss fit in the squad.

stephen_n

.ak wrote: »

Nah, I'm sorry I don't buy that. Coaches tend to have more access to a player than we ever well, and a better formed opinion.

If McGrath is good enough he'll start. If this SA fella starts over him it's because he's better or more suited to what the coach wants.

Nobody has denied McGrath the opportunity to play for Leinster.


Murray and Jackson have always been exceptional players. Sure, Murray was parachuted into the Irish team when he shouldn't have been, but he was doing all the right things until that point, he was a solid player. Jackson was tearing it up at A level and pushed the incumbent starter out of the side completely for Ulster.

The same is not applicable to McGrath, who has blown hot n cold whenever given the opportunity.. But believe me when I say coaches do not make up their mind on a player based on a cameo or the odd poor game. It's based on a season of working with the player, during off-season and behind scenes during training.

Cooney may turn out to be a prime example that coaches can get it wrong and some players just need game time to progress. Hopefully we will see McGrath get some decent gametime and really put his hand up after the RWC.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think it's pretty clear why McGrath hasn't been given more game time, in his time on the field he didn't look like a guy ready to take the chance. Jackson certainly looked like he was ready in 2012.

You can do more harm than good pushing a player before he's ready. The idea that the only way you improve is with game time is rubbish, that's never been true at any level, it's just a truism that people should have grown out of years ago. There are some skills that require game time to improve but the balance of it comes off the field. I actually think McGrath is a natural when it comes to those untenables you develop on the field, it's things like his passing which have let him down in the past, and that's a skill that you can't learn by playing more games, it's a skill you learn in the evening midweek.

I'm hopeful for him in the next few months though. He's got a golden opportunity now, not just to show he deserves more game time but to also put pressure on whoever is away for a starting place. Half backs benefit from consistency in selection as well, it really helps with the strategic/tactical side of the game. I'm optimistic that when the World Cup is over we should be having a conversation about where Reddan/Boss fit in the squad.

Our back play was so regularly all over the place last season that even lads with plenty of experience looked very unsure at times where to be sending the ball. It was a season of knock on's and and I would imagine that had Luke come through in Schmidt's final season he would have looked a better prospect.

Will see how he fairs this year - if there is nothing much between him and the cover scrummie I think the game time will be invested in Luke.

Podge_irl

jm08 wrote: »

Of all players, that just does not apply to Murray. He got a chance and he took it. Murray put two international scrumhalfs on the bench so decisively both left Munster.

He had an incredibly rocky start to his career in terms of performance, if not selection.

I've never seen McGrath look especially comfortable passing the ball, at any level. That's obviously the problem that's holding him back and it's not going to be fixed by just playing more games. If he hasn't improved on it enough by now I would think the coaches would be right to be seriously skeptical of him.

Buer

Interested Observer wrote: »

Jackson wasn't, sorry. He was like a little lost child in his very early Ulster caps. But he was backed because it was clear how talented he was.

No he wasn't. He cracked badly in the HEC final (which was about his 8th ever start and a bridge too far for a bloke who had only turned 20 a few months before) but he was good before that. It was a surprise he got the nod for the semi but he had shown huge promise before that point. I think it was the game against Leinster, actually, where people sat up and took notice of his skills.

He was certainly raw but he showed far more in those appearances than McGrath has to date.

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Our back play was so regularly all over the place last season that even lads with plenty of experience looked very unsure at times where to be sending the ball. It was a season of knock on's and and I would imagine that had Luke come through in Schmidt's final season he would have looked a better prospect.

Will see how he fairs this year - if there is nothing much between him and the cover scrummie I think the game time will be invested in Luke.

Our biggest problem last season was the dismal performance of our half backs at bouth 9 and 10. He wasn't a main contributor to that though, guys who should have been far more senior than him were. Every senior squad member in that position was absolutely dire apart from maybe Boss towards the end.

.ak

stephen_n wrote: »

Cooney may turn out to be a prime example that coaches can get it wrong and some players just need game time to progress. Hopefully we will see McGrath get some decent gametime and really put his hand up after the RWC.

I'm not sure about that, before he left Cooney was the fringe scrumhalf that was getting game time, and from the conversations I've had the management were happy it was going that way.

Cooney wanted more game time and the opportunity presented itself at Connacht.

jm08

Podge_irl wrote: »

He had an incredibly rocky start to his career in terms of performance, if not selection.

You are just wrong on that one. Right from the start he looked like a star. He got his first game of the season v Australia as a sub, and just got better and better. I remember a particuarly stand-out performance v Ospreys away which was aboout his 4th or 5th start for Munster (which I think sealed him as first choice SH for Munster), he was the starting scrumhalf for Munster in Munster's first win over Leinster in a long time and he was excellent in the Pro12 final that Munster won.

He wasn't popular with mainly Leinster fans who liked their scrumhalf to just pass quickly (like Reddan). The downside is that Reddan (and less physical SHs) will get turned over easily.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

You are just wrong on that one. Right from the start he looked like a star. He got his first game of the season v Australia as a sub, and just got better and better. I remember a particuarly stand-out performance v Ospreys away which was aboout his 4th or 5th start for Munster (which I think sealed him as first choice SH for Munster), he was the starting scrumhalf for Munster in Munster's first win over Leinster in a long time and he was excellent in the Pro12 final that Munster won.

He wasn't popular with mainly Leinster fans who liked their scrumhalf to just pass quickly (like Reddan). The downside is that Reddan (and less physical SHs) will get turned over easily.

People are referring to his start at international level I think, not his start at Munster which was pretty excellent.

He certainly struggled at international level, there's no doubt about that. Ireland's only notable performances during that period (England 2011 6 Nations, Australia 2011 World Cup) came with Reddan/Sexton starting at half back, they also happened to be the ONLY games that Reddan/Sexton started at half back. Perhaps a coincidence, perhaps not.

Podge_irl

jm08 wrote: »

You are just wrong on that one. Right from the start he looked like a star. He got his first game of the season v Australia as a sub, and just got better and better. I remember a particuarly stand-out performance v Ospreys away which was aboout his 4th or 5th start for Munster (which I think sealed him as first choice SH for Munster), he was the starting scrumhalf for Munster in Munster's first win over Leinster in a long time and he was excellent in the Pro12 final that Munster won.

He wasn't popular with mainly Leinster fans who liked their scrumhalf to just pass quickly (like Reddan). The downside is that Reddan (and less physical SHs) will get turned over easily.

Suit yourself. As far as I'm concerned he was regularly completely ****e at the start of his career but I have little interest discussing it.

Cooney is very much a "classic" scrum half but his decision making is not great. That is the kind of thing that most definitely can get better with more game experience though.

Podge_irl

irishbucsfan wrote: »

People are referring to his start at international level I think, not his start at Munster which was pretty excellent.

Mostly, though he had a few horror showings for Munster as well (e.g. Racing).

Murray has turned into an absolutely excellent player but I don't think he is a remotely good example of how to develop a player. He was thrown in the deep end far too early when he wasn't ready for it (through no fault of his own) and frankly wasn't very good. There was no need for it.

Jackson is slightly different, but if Ulster had any other competent options I doubt he would have been starting the HEC final. That experience stood to him but it could equally have had a negative impact.

However, neither are good comparisons with McGrath as far as I'm concerned because even while struggling at the start they both showed a lot more than McGrath has so far. There is no one-size-fits-all perfect way to develop a player, just because Murray and Jackson started young and got exposed to to a lot of game time early and are now excellent players doesn't really mean anything for McGrath who has shown much bigger problems with his fundamental skills.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

People are referring to his start at international level I think, not his start at Munster which was pretty excellent.

He certainly struggled at international level, there's no doubt about that. Ireland's only notable performances during that period (England 2011 6 Nations, Australia 2011 World Cup) came with Reddan/Sexton starting at half back, they also happened to be the ONLY games that Reddan/Sexton started at half back. Perhaps a coincidence, perhaps not.

2011 was his first season. He didn't get his first international cap until the warm-up games for the world cup (v France) in 2011. He and O'Gara came on v. Australia at about 50 minute mark, so its fair to say they had a decent contribution to that game as well. He was also the starting outhalf in the draw v France in Paris (which was a decent result against the World's No. 2.)

He started the 2nd Test v New Zealand where Ireland came very, very close to a win over the ABs. That was his 8th start for Ireland.

molloyjh

stephen_n wrote: »

Cooney may turn out to be a prime example that coaches can get it wrong and some players just need game time to progress. Hopefully we will see McGrath get some decent gametime and really put his hand up after the RWC.

If anything Cooney is a prime example that game time doesn't make a player better. Remember his first few games for Leinster during the 2011 RWC? We had to bring Willis back, who was had all but given up on getting another senior gig at that point, because Cooney was so bad. As the season progressed there was actually a pretty big improvement in Cooneys game (remember the 2012 HEC final?). That improvement came on the training paddock, not on the pitch.

I do think as IBF said some skills are improved on the pitch and some in training. I also think some players learn differently though too. The pressure environment of a match might work for some and against others. A lot also depends on exactly what the issue is. In McGraths case I don't know what his passing is like in training. Maybe it's spot on, but he just hasn't adapted to the pace and pressure of a match situation yet. If that's the case game time will help him there. If his passing is erratic in training as well then that's where the work needs to be done.

All that said I do think McGraths passing has been over analysed at this point and any poor pass is immediately seized upon as an example of the issue. Our scrum-halves in general haven't been great in the last 12 months and all have been guilty of poor passes during games. How much more commonplace it was from McGrath I'm really not sure. I do think he looked better and more confident towards the end of the season.

stephen_n

molloyjh wrote: »

If anything Cooney is a prime example that game time doesn't make a player better. Remember his first few games for Leinster during the 2011 RWC? We had to bring Willis back, who was had all but given up on getting another senior gig at that point, because Cooney was so bad. As the season progressed there was actually a pretty big improvement in Cooneys game (remember the 2012 HEC final?). That improvement came on the training paddock, not on the pitch.

I do think as IBF said some skills are improved on the pitch and some in training. I also think some players learn differently though too. The pressure environment of a match might work for some and against others. A lot also depends on exactly what the issue is. In McGraths case I don't know what his passing is like in training. Maybe it's spot on, but he just hasn't adapted to the pace and pressure of a match situation yet. If that's the case game time will help him there. If his passing is erratic in training as well then that's where the work needs to be done.

All that said I do think McGraths passing has been over analysed at this point and any poor pass is immediately seized upon as an example of the issue. Our scrum-halves in general haven't been great in the last 12 months and all have been guilty of poor passes during games. How much more commonplace it was from McGrath I'm really not sure. I do think he looked better and more confident towards the end of the season.

Don't think that's a like for like comparison though, Cooney was 21 at that stage and vastly less experienced than McGrath is now. It's also hard to gauge how much of the experience gained in that period contributed to his form in 2012.

I'd agree McGrath's pass is over analyzed and harshly so too, his passing last season was certainly no worse than Boss's for the first half of the season and at times was considerably better. I'm not 100% convinced McGrath has the temperament for top level rugby but I don't think that can be assessed on the training paddock. We have no idea what the coaches were seeing in training but we know what we were seeing in games and at times it wasn't pretty at all.

Hagz

I think Cullen will be more willing to give McGrath game time. After all he did pick him to marry his daughter out of all the lads.

RichieRich89

I rate Luke McGrath very highly, and I hope he gets a really good run during the World Cup. I think he was unfairly treated early last season. It seemed McGrath was dropped because he made some errors, while Reddan, and especially Boss, were retained in spite of sometimes woeful performances.

Passing isn't the strongest part of McGrath's game, but if he offers more overall, which I think is the case, then to obsess over one element of his game isn't logical. From what I've seen he seems to have a really good feel for the game, instinctively doing the right thing at the right time, and has good leadership qualities.

Unless the IRFU allow us to sign a quality NIQ, which is possibly unlikely with Pienaar being at Ulster, we'll need McGrath to be ready to step up to the first team when Reddan and Boss are gone. Leinster need to play McGrath at every possible turn to ensure a smooth transition

total former

Well sure look, one way or another McGrath has a clear run at the 9 jersey in the pre-season and for the first two months of the season, 6 or 7 league matches with no meaningful opposition for the jersey. A few months from now we'll have a much better idea of what he can and can't do.

accidentprone1

Hagz wrote: »

I think Cullen will be more willing to give McGrath game time. After all he did pick him to marry his daughter out of all the lads.

I don't get this reference.

CIARAN_BOYLE

accidentprone1 wrote: »

I don't get this reference.

on the day of Cullen's last home game he and bod were asked by an interviewer to pick a Leinster player that they would be the happiest if said player married their daughter

Neil3030

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

on the day of Cullen's last home game he and bod were asked by an interviewer to pick a Leinster player that they would be the happiest if said player married their daughter

That's a kind of f***ed up question to be honest...

RichieRich89

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

on the day of Cullen's last home game he and bod were asked by an interviewer to pick a Leinster player that they would be the happiest if said player married their daughter

And who did BOD go for?

Jello

RichieRich89 wrote: »

And who did BOD go for?

Gopperth if I remember correctly.

total former

Douglas confirmed as a Reds player.

Good luck to him. (I suppose.)

.ak

I wonder if that implies MOC is getting the Reds job.

thomond2006

.ak's illuminati is working its magic: http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/news/13729.php#.VbtLzst0yHs

.ak

I'm just letting the lads have their day in the sun.

I'm due for a call up once they realize Isa is past it....

Larbre34

'Tarf is to rugby what the Favelas of Sao Paulo are to football. Must be the sea air

CIARAN_BOYLE

RichieRich89 wrote: »

And who did BOD go for?

I think it was Jordi Murphy