Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

PTH2009

A heart to heart talk is needed in the dressing room between the players and management the system is not working and the players are starting to get pissed off at it. We gave up today, Maurice was clearly frustrated. Aussie's and Shane Bennett's form is worrying

It will go head to head If ourselves and Dublin end up on 4 points, if 3 teams end up on 4 points than it comes down too point difference.

mountgomery burns

Would imagine Cork won't beat Tipp so likely if we lose to Clare we'll be playing Dublin.

redlead

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Would imagine Cork won't beat Tipp so likely if we lose to Clare we'll be playing Dublin.

It's still all in our own hands at the end of the day. Win one of our next one/two games and we stay up and if we lose three in a row we simply don't deserve to stay up. Time to sink or swim.

PTH2009

redlead wrote: »

It's still all in our own hands at the end of the day. Win one of our next one/two games and we stay up and if we lose three in a row we simply don't deserve to stay up. Time to sink or swim.

True and if we lose anymore games in todays fashion questions need to be asked. Nobody gave a hope of beating us today and they did it in brillent fashion. Anyone would beat us if we play like we did today

We will play Cork or Dublin in Walsh Park In the relagation playoff. Coin Toss if between ourselves and Kilkenny (please Christ it won't be against them). Finish 4th and its Wexford in Walsh Park in the QF. Last nights draw between Tipp and Kilkenny has really messed us up

We play Limerick in a challenge game next Sunday

Deise_2012

That league is getting restructured next year anyway so who cares about the playoff. Their form is worrying but then againnnnnnnn it's the middle of March ladss relax

windy shepard henderson

Deise_2012 wrote: »

That league is getting restructured next year anyway so who cares about the playoff. Their form is worrying but then againnnnnnnn it's the middle of March ladss relax

is it ? i taught they discussed this and agreed to leave it as it is

brookville

windy shepard henderson wrote: »

is it ? i taught they discussed this and agreed to leave it as it is

I also heard it's being restructured for next year

chookieourlaw

Deise_2012 wrote: »

That league is getting restructured next year anyway so who cares about the playoff. Their form is worrying but then againnnnnnnn it's the middle of March ladss relax

Anyone who honestly believes that that team has a hope of winning an AI any time soon is kidding themselves. That performance is symptomatic of a team that has lost faith in management and has also lost their self-belief. Not only that but the lack of depth in the squad is glaringly obvious when the likes of Barron and Brick have an off day. It's back to square one sadly. Tipp will hammer us again in MSF.

cul beag

Would someone like to enlighten me please?!! WTF was that today? I'm waiting for someone to tell me there's light at the end of the tunnel!! That was the worst I've seen in a long long time,I'm trying to find one shred of positivity out of it but can't. AN EMBARRASSMENT.

brookville

cul beag wrote: »

Would someone like to enlighten me please?!! WTF was that today? I'm waiting for someone to tell me there's light at the end of the tunnel!! That was the worst I've seen in a long long time,I'm trying to find one shred of positivity out of it but can't. AN EMBARRASSMENT.

League is very inconsistent,we went down to ennis two weeks ago and were hammered and doom and gloom everywhere but suddenly two weeks later it's all forgotten about.I'm sure it was just an off day the league is not yer priority I'm sure ye'll be fine in the summer

Motivator

Was excited heading down to this today and the wife, a Cork woman, looking forward to seeing the same team she saw in Thurles last August.

Today was an embarrassment from start to finish. What is wrong with Derek McGrath? His big words in his interviews might make him sound like the real deal but he and his management team are looking anything but. Imagine if we still had a Paul Flynn or a Mullane - they'd be out around midfield running towards their own goal to defend. We saw how good The Bennetts, the Gleesons and Patrick Curran are in their minor days and last years U21. If I was them I'd be pulling off the panel until McGrath goes. Look how frustrating it is for us to watch, imagine having to actually go out and play that **** every week? I'd love to see what they do in training because that was pathetic today. I pity Brick - he stuck around because of the performances against KK last August. I presume he thought things would change but they haven't. Today was scandalous and for the first time under McGrath the team looked a beaten docket after 45 mins.

How long is this going to persist? This is McGrath's 4th year in charge and we haven't beaten a team of note in the Championship - a Clare team not at the races in June doesn't count. What has McGrath got against trying to play to his team's strengths? The U21 team played to their strengths last year, U12 teams are coached to play to their strengths but this clown thinks he can win an All Ireland by asking fellas to go against everything they learned from the minute they started playing the game at a competitive level. It's actually quite funny what he's at and the yes men he has with him on his backroom team are as bad. Not a bit of cop on in any of them at all.

An 8 point defeat to a poor Cork team is not good enough. Grand, Waterford are said to be aiming to "peak" for August. Peak how? In what way are they going to peak? If McGrath was going to alter how the team will set up and operate for the Championship he would be trialing it now. Things won't change but all the excuses in the world will be given by McGrath and for him when our summer goes tits up.

chinguetti

I'm surprised that there's more discussion about the league and relegation than the performance, which was cat.

I even thought that there would be more posts about the piece of grass they played on. Walsh Park is a dreadful surface for trying to play hurling on.

Deise189

Thought Maurice was good when he was on the pitch and showed glimpses of his 2015 form with some great catches. The only player who looked interested in being on the pitch today. Barron a massive loss when he went off injured. Hopefully o hallorans injury isn't too bad. Looked like he pulled something.

windy shepard henderson

brookville wrote: »

I also heard it's being restructured for next year

any ideas in what way , i imagine 12 teams with two groups of 6 , and drawn out evenly

mickmackmcgoo

chinguetti wrote:

I'm surprised that there's more discussion about the league and relegation than the performance, which was cat.

chinguetti wrote:

I even thought that there would be more posts about the piece of grass they played on. Walsh Park is a dreadful surface for trying to play hurling on.

Walsh park is primarily mud . Pitch needs to be relaid but of course that will never happen. The walls outside Walsh park on the Keanes road part are a disgrace , it surely wouldn't cost much to rough dash it the same as the slievekeake road part .
As for the performance, I'm completely disillusioned with this team and manager . I see no improvement at all in this team . I posted earlier that I though we only have 5 or 6 top players and 2 of them are probably in their last season now. Some of our forwards are just not at the level required, some are like Jordan Henderson at Liverpool, run all day and get stuck in but create nothing and not enough skill and vision.

PTH2009

The Liam Mccarthy coming over the Quay seems as fair away as ever tbh

It starting to feel like 2014 all over again

The joy of winning the minor in 2013 and the under 21 last year seems be fading away slowly as it starting to show some players are not progressing to senior at all and the morale of the senior team is getting lower and lower each week. The tactics are clearly not working

If Sean Power and Co take over (or someother management team) in 2018 were not going to win anything straight away as it will take a while to get over the playing style that Mcgrath plays and guys like the Brick, Moran, Noel Connors, Maurice could be gone

cul beag

Motivator wrote: »

Was excited heading down to this today and the wife, a Cork woman, looking forward to seeing the same team she saw in Thurles last August.

Today was an embarrassment from start to finish. What is wrong with Derek McGrath? His big words in his interviews might make him sound like the real deal but he and his management team are looking anything but. Imagine if we still had a Paul Flynn or a Mullane - they'd be out around midfield running towards their own goal to defend. We saw how good The Bennetts, the Gleesons and Patrick Curran are in their minor days and last years U21. If I was them I'd be pulling off the panel until McGrath goes. Look how frustrating it is for us to watch, imagine having to actually go out and play that **** every week? I'd love to see what they do in training because that was pathetic today. I pity Brick - he stuck around because of the performances against KK last August. I presume he thought things would change but they haven't. Today was scandalous and for the first time under McGrath the team looked a beaten docket after 45 mins.

How long is this going to persist? This is McGrath's 4th year in charge and we haven't beaten a team of note in the Championship - a Clare team not at the races in June doesn't count. What has McGrath got against trying to play to his team's strengths? The U21 team played to their strengths last year, U12 teams are coached to play to their strengths but this clown thinks he can win an All Ireland by asking fellas to go against everything they learned from the minute they started playing the game at a competitive level. It's actually quite funny what he's at and the yes men he has with him on his backroom team are as bad. Not a bit of cop on in any of them at all.

An 8 point defeat to a poor Cork team is not good enough. Grand, Waterford are said to be aiming to "peak" for August. Peak how? In what way are they going to peak? If McGrath was going to alter how the team will set up and operate for the Championship he would be trialing it now. Things won't change but all the excuses in the world will be given by McGrath and for him when our summer goes tits up.

Well said. Although Flynners wasn't fond of running around in his playing days evenðŸ˜. Jokes aside,I believe he is streets ahead of these clowns in charge and wouldn't hold personal vendettas against certain players either. Whatever management team comes in next year Flynner has to be involved. At least we'll be hurling to our strengths which would be a start.

Motivator

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

Some of our forwards are just not at the level required, some are like Jordan Henderson at Liverpool, run all day and get stuck in but create nothing and not enough skill and vision.

I don't agree with this at all. Look at the 2 Bennetts and Patrick Curran last year U21. Maurice Shanahan is an All Star. Moran is an All Star, Brick is an All Star. Mahony will be an All Star at some stage.

Brick and Moran aren't quite scoring forwards but the rest are. The problem is, they aren't allowed score. Curran racks up ridiculous scores for Dungarvan because he's played in the position that he's made to play in. Same with the Bennetts and the same with Mahony. They play in club teams that play to their strengths. Waterford don't do that. We play a crap brand of hurling that destroys everything that the fellas on the team were taught from when they were children. It's just absolute rubbish. I've no bother with a team getting beaten, but at least give it a go for god's sake. Not even giving your team a chance of actually competing man on man is not ok. It just isn't acceptable. McGrath can run the **** out of his players, shout and roar big words and whatever else he does behind closed doors but the blame lies with him and that's the bottom line. These fellas are the standout players in their county. They're all on the team and the panel because they excell at what they do and they're brilliant to watch at times but they aren't being given a fair chance and it isn't fair on them.

Brick Walsh and Kevin Moran went training Christmas morning leaving small children behind, for what? For that crap we saw today. It isn't the players fault at all. They're being taken apart piece by piece by the management for no reason. Coach them the way they've been coached all their playing careers and give them the opportunity to go out and play to their strengths and give them a chance to actually win a game. A win against a poor KK team (on the day) and a win against a poor Dublin team shouldn't be enough to gloss over the ****.

Gleeson won his hurler of the year award for 2 classy displays against KK last summer. 2 games where we actually went toe to toe with them. If we'd put in a similar performance to the game in Croke Park against KK in 2015 he wouldn't even have been nominated last summer. We saw how capable the players are, just leave them do it.

Stopitwillya

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

As for the performance, I'm completely disillusioned with this team and manager . I see no improvement at all in this team . I posted earlier that I though we only have 5 or 6 top players and 2 of them are probably in their last season now. Some of our forwards are just not at the level required, some are like Jordan Henderson at Liverpool, run all day and get stuck in but create nothing and not enough skill and vision.

Would these be the same forwards whose skill and vision lit up the under 21 championship last year? Gleeson, Mahony, Brick, Shanahan, the two Bennetts, Curran.
7 quality forwards who under the right manager playing proper hurling would have Waterford as All Ireland contenders. Under McGrath and his yes men as selectors we will never win anything.

Fred C Dobbs

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

There is no play off this year . Bottom team is relegated. Extra time for quarter and semis if needed rather than a replay.
As regards today's performance it was gutless, embarrassing and not good enough. We get 2 or 3 home matches a year and people pay good money to watch that rubbish today !
Mcgrath and his system is a busted flush, other teams know how to play against it and we are regressing not improving . We have 5 or 6 top class players , the rest are just not of the quality to win an all ireland.
I'm not over reacting to a bad performance today and people will say it's only the league etc but ultimately we simply do not have the players or the manager to win an all ireland

Agreed re top class players (unfortunately) - hypothetically speaking .... how many Waterford players would make the starting 15 for Tipperary.

mickmackmcgoo

Stopitwillya wrote:

Would these be the same forwards whose skill and vision lit up the under 21 championship last year? Gleeson, Mahony, Brick, Shanahan, the two Bennetts, Curran. 7 quality forwards who under the right manager playing proper hurling would have Waterford as All Ireland contenders. Under McGrath and his yes men as selectors we will never win anything.

Under 21 is a different thing to taking on Tipp and Kk at senior . I agree that players are stymied by the system . You won't win a senior all ireland without improvement on the last 2 years and I see no improvement this year . Brick and Moran are at the end of their career and without them we will struggle. People have this vision of the 2 Bennetts, Curran, tom devine and DJ Foran and Gleeson being a top class forward line just because they were at under 21 level . I disagree. 3 weeks ago Tipp sent half a team to Walsh park and never had to get out of second gear to win easily. Today an inconsistent Cork side were very worthy winners . At the end of the day we all know who the starting 15 will be for the championship and how they will be made play and I see no way of us competing with Tipp

Motivator

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

Under 21 is a different thing to taking on Tipp and Kk at senior . I agree that players are stymied by the system . You won't win a senior all ireland without improvement on the last 2 years and I see no improvement this year . Brick and Moran are at the end of their career and without them we will struggle. People have this vision of the 2 Bennetts, Curran, tom devine and DJ Foran and Gleeson being a top class forward line just because they were at under 21 level . I disagree. 3 weeks ago Tipp sent half a team to Walsh park and never had to get out of second gear to win easily. Today an inconsistent Cork side were very worthy winners . At the end of the day we all know who the starting 15 will be for the championship and how they will be made play and I see no way of us competing with Tipp

If these fellas aren't being given a fair crack at the whip then we'll never compete. It's all well and good saying fellas got a start and didn't perform so they aren't worth persisting with. It's HOW they are played that's the problem.

To me, asking the likes of the Bennetts and Patrick Curran to play in this Waterford team is like asking Christiano Ronaldo to play centre half for Hull.

It just doesn't work and it doesn't fit. These players are completely wasted and it's not fair on them. Imagine bursting yourself in the wind and rain since long before Christmas to be a sub today? Or not even a sub, a member of the extended panel? If it were me, I'd be coming home tonight and having a long think about what I'm doing. Why bother going training when you know deep down nothing is going to change? I have nothing but admiration for any of the lads on the senior panel, they deserve so much more than they're getting. Granted, they get well looked after in terms of gear and travel etc. But the management is failing them. The management is there to get the best out of the players at their disposal - but they are actually doing the complete opposite!

Punt Road

Won’t be pressing the big red button just yet as it is the 12th of March. We don't play Championship for another 3 months. Second round qualifiers are in almost 4 months should that be the route we take.

Few realtime observations:

- As mentioned so far, our handling, decision making and general execution especially in the first half] was very poor. The 2 sidelines that went straight out was indicative of the sort of problems we were having. We were out muscled, out fought and out hurled today. No systems etc failure today. It was the basics that were our undoing.

- The few lads who got their chance today didn’t necessarily put a strong case forward. Lyons will be an ok option but I feel will not be in contention for the summer this year. Physically dominated and made some poor clearances that cost scores. Dunford was quiet. Felt a bit sorry for him as all the first half midfield action was under high puckouts or clearances. That is 100% the type of situation that Dunford would want to avoid. Got taken off then relatively early in the second half when maybe his running game may have suited what we needed to open up some space for shooting.

- Cork were physically very strong today. Thought C. Gleeson, Dunford, Ryan, Lyons etc looked very slight out there in comparison. Walsh park sod in March and all that…

- Austin just isn’t in good form at the moment. Looked sluggish in the warm up and throughout. There is time to sort that out.

- Thought it looked like we tried to keep 2 up for most of the game with Stevie staying in most of the time and Shane mainly as the second man. Its very hard to hold that shape though with the gale against us in the first half where lads are often tempted to wander out a bit hunting ball. Cork similar in second half.

- Thought Barry C did OK at full back. A couple of times Harnedy got a run at him but the whole show was creaking today and I thought he worked hard with flicks and general spoiling which is the essence of full back play.

- Barry Kelly was frustrating at times today although was not the cause of our loss.

mickmackmcgoo

Motivator wrote:

If these fellas aren't being given a fair crack at the whip then we'll never compete. It's all well and good saying fellas got a start and didn't perform so they aren't worth persisting with. It's HOW they are played that's the problem.

I agree that everyone on the panel should get a chance to start in the league and try earn their place .

robopaddy2

Heard today that the team had a training session this morning before the game, ludicrous if true. Also a full on session last Sunday morning after the Dublin game.

Motivator

Another thing I find quite annoying is when people say "ah we haven't the players". That's rubbish, we've a team that could POTENTIALLY be the best Waterford team for quite some time - proven by the way some of the great team of the '00s talk so highly of this current team, namely; Mullane, Eoin Kelly, Flynner and Fergal Hartley. Everyone knows this team has great potential and for the first time in a very long time this team has winners all over it. I'm not sure how many of the team have Harty medals (10+?), Minor All Irelands, Fitzgibbon medals and U21s All Irelands too. Lots have been successful with their clubs too so it's not as if they are journeymen players who are just competing all along, these players have been winning.

I think too many excuses are being made for Derek McGrath, excuses that no other manager has ever been afforded. Justin McCarthy got the boot, Davy Fitz left in odd circumstances and we all know what happened Michael Ryan. None of these men ever got bowed down to like the current manager. I've a lot of time for Derek, I played against him for many years and I respect him but I'm not afraid to say he's not up to the job. Many will disagree with me and say I've waited until a bad day at the office to have a go at him but I felt this way throughout 2014 which was a car crash of a year, 2015 the Championship was no better apart from the Cork game in Munster when we played very well. Last year the Semi against Kilkenny looked like a watershed moment for the team and the management but this year we seem to have gone backwards.

Things may change down the line, but it doesn't look likely. How we played in Croke Park and Thurles seems lightyears ago and if we were going to be playing in a similar way this year it would already be in place during the league. If we're not serious about the league what are we doing week to week? Tactically we're the same as ever before and I can't see the management pulling a rabbit out of the hat and parachuting in a new way of playing for the Championship if it isn't being given time to tweak it during the league.

dubcat51

Two points.every team bar tipp have had a shocker in the league.cork v dubs kk v clare.clare v cork and yourselves today.2nd point mc grath was in the stands last night(how any manager after watching that game would not like to embrace hurling like that I dont know)also you do have the players let them play.

chinguetti

robopaddy2 wrote: »

Heard today that the team had a training session this morning before the game, ludicrous if true. Also a full on session last Sunday morning after the Dublin game.

Well if that is the case, could the County Board please inform the general public so they don't spend their hard earned cash going to see a team that will clearly under perform.

The lack of fight can't be trained out of players btw!

Deise Gael

robopaddy2 wrote: »

Heard today that the team had a training session this morning before the game, ludicrous if true. Also a full on session last Sunday morning after the Dublin game.

Ok, that explains everything so!

cul beag

dubcat51 wrote: »

Two points.every team bar tipp have had a shocker in the league.cork v dubs kk v clare.clare v cork and yourselves today.2nd point mc grath was in the stands last night(how any manager after watching that game would not like to embrace hurling like that I dont know)also you do have the players let them play.

The problem is we're listening to utter bull**** for the past I don't know how long and unfortunately the people are beginning to see through his crap. When you see both teams last night going toe to toe,no quarter asked or given,that's all you'll ask of your team. But to be strangled with bull**** systems that are stifling our players is the most frustrating thing to watch as a supporter. Christ McGrath will you leave them die with their boots on rather than hiding behind each other in piles. The team would get more respect for doing so. The frustration of this ****e is getting worse by the week.