Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

Mountainlad

Pretty confident we've a better midfield than Cork. Kearney was terrible in the first half last Sunday definitely don't rate him as highly as you do.

TyrionPower

Cork and waterford are very good solid teams - they work hard and both seem to have a never say die spirit and are to admired, I don't think that they will be anything between them.

What I think they are both lacking as of yet is a real marquee name like a Richie hogan/power, a tony kelly like a real exceptional player who is a force of nature
For cork I don't think Horgan fails into this category as although he is a beautiful hurler, he lacks pace and can be kept quiet in the corner. Lehane maybe in time but his shooting at present is too erratic.
too early to see if anyone from waterford can mature into that kind of clutch player but some may have the potential - but the lack of this something special for either team may prevent them from taking the big prize.

At the moment to me Tony Kelly is the best hurler in the country

blueflame

With all those top quality excellent "best in the game" hurlers, who have been really consistent , it is no wonder Cork have had a huge haul of trophies over the last 5/6 years at Minor, Senior and U 21 - sorry my mistake they have annexed one title in all grades in the last 7 years.

The skill level and quality amongst the top hurlers in the country at the moment is unreal with almost every top team having individual players players capable of turning a game. Waterford are far form the finished article, but so are Cork. Player for player Cork have more experience but i feel honestly there is little to choose over-all in terms of potential and ability.

The thing Cork have in general, is a confidence and arrogance that they believe they are top side and always will be (as appears to be verified by your own postings). Waterford on the other hand, apart from the few as we would call them "head-a balls " tend to be more optimistic than arrogant. Waterford hurling folk in general believe we have a crop of players who have shown through their careers to date that they do not fear anyone and believe they have the right and ability to compete at the top. If we can build on this, avoid injuries to key players and keep their feet on the ground there is absolutely no reason we cannot compete and triumph over Cork in the league and the Championship this year. Personally I think we are a year or two out from really contesting for an All Ireland but then again we thought that in 98 and look how close we came that year.

thinkstoomuch1

redlead wrote: »

Thinkstoomuch - you take stream of consciousness to a whole new level. Joyce would be proud of you.

From reading your posts, I think that you really overrate this Cork team. They are a good side with some very good players just like Waterford. Neither team are anything special at the moment but Waterford definitely have better potential to turn into title contenders in a couple of years time. Just look at who is starring for the UCC team.

The current teams are very even at the moment and I think that the results in the league final and championship will reflect that.

I don't over rate this cork team at all at all
Some here choose to see what they want
I said many times cork are behind KK all Ireland on cork thread and in light full back issues don't see us beating them win all Ireland or possibly tipp


However some talk here regards Waterford with respect blowing up waterford to no ends
I never said cork unbeatable what I counter debate was this nonsense that Waterford ate better hurlers
At worst cork break even
Also for all cork weak areas where a top four team the last three years something Waterford have not been and yes had good league however nothing say Waterford have bridges the gap to cork

Newson123

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

I don't over rate this cork team at all at all

Calling guys like McDonnell, Ellis, Mcloughlin and Kearney unreal, outstanding, excellent etc. is just delusional really. They're good, but no way are they as good as you make out. That's not to say that Waterford are any better, but they undoubtedly have more potential.

citykat

Mountainlad wrote: »

Kearney was terrible in the first half last Sunday definitely don't rate him as highly as you do.

If he stayed upright a bit more it might be easier to assess him. One of the worst for diving in the modern game.

Fireball07

TyrionPower wrote: »

Cork and waterford are very good solid teams - they work hard and both seem to have a never say die spirit and are to admired, I don't think that they will be anything between them.

What I think they are both lacking as of yet is a real marquee name like a Richie hogan/power, a tony kelly like a real exceptional player who is a force of nature
For cork I don't think Horgan fails into this category as although he is a beautiful hurler, he lacks pace and can be kept quiet in the corner. Lehane maybe in time but his shooting at present is too erratic.
too early to see if anyone from waterford can mature into that kind of clutch player but some may have the potential - but the lack of this something special for either team may prevent them from taking the big prize.

At the moment to me Tony Kelly is the best hurler in the country

On his day Kelly is the best hurler in the country but he needs to be more consistent. Even when they won the All-Ireland, he drifted in and out of games a lot. I think he deserved Hurler of the Year but some people would argue that Podge and Colm Galvin were more important, even though Kelly can produce moments of magic on a level above that.

And last year, he wasn't great at all- flashes again but Conor McGrath was clearly Clare's best player.

He did have a good league, he has all the talent in the world but he needs to start applying it on a regular basis to be called the best player around. As of right now, there are a few players I'd rather have than him.




As for Cork & Waterford having a player like that... I think Harnedy is top class. He has it all really. Lehane has a lot of talent and maybe could match Kelly but he hasn't done it as much as him even. I rate Kearney very highly too. As for Waterford, they have some quality backs... maybe Gleeson could go on to be an influence like Kelly is... or one of the Bennetts or Patrick Curran in time. Dunford is a real talent too, although his game is more akin to Conor McGrath or Graeme Mulcahy and players like that.

Orizio

redlead wrote: »

Just look at who is starring for the UCC team.

...eh? The majority of the UCC Fitz team was from Cork with a handful from Waterford.

TyrionPower

Fireball07 wrote: »

On his day Kelly is the best hurler in the country but he needs to be more consistent. Even when they won the All-Ireland, he drifted in and out of games a lot. I think he deserved Hurler of the Year but some people would argue that Podge and Colm Galvin were more important, even though Kelly can produce moments of magic on a level above that.

And last year, he wasn't great at all- flashes again but Conor McGrath was clearly Clare's best player.

He did have a good league, he has all the talent in the world but he needs to start applying it on a regular basis to be called the best player around. As of right now, there are a few players I'd rather have than him.




As for Cork & Waterford having a player like that... I think Harnedy is top class. He has it all really. Lehane has a lot of talent and maybe could match Kelly but he hasn't done it as much as him even. I rate Kearney very highly too. As for Waterford, they have some quality backs... maybe Gleeson could go on to be an influence like Kelly is... or one of the Bennetts or Patrick Curran in time. Dunford is a real talent too, although his game is more akin to Conor McGrath or Graeme Mulcahy and players like that.

True about Kelly in the years gone by, just on what I have seen of him this year - just incredible
Colm Calvin is a huge loss to Clare he is a serious operator

I was actually thinking Dunford myself, he has pace and takes defences on and can hurt teams, he could play anywhere from midfield up but again whilst he has taken to inter county hurling with ease still has a bit to go, but he has the potential.
Gleeson probably is the marquee name - but I wouldn't play him in the half back line, he is not a good tackler and gives away lazy frees, plus he needs to rule out the long range Hail Mary efforts... Still savagely talented and so athletic

deiseach

citykat wrote: »

If he stayed upright a bit more it might be easier to assess him. One of the worst for diving in the modern game.

Miaow!

thinkstoomuch1

Newson123 wrote: »

Calling guys like McDonnell, Ellis, Mcloughlin and Kearney unreal, outstanding, excellent etc. is just delusional really. They're good, but no way are they as good as you make out. That's not to say that Waterford are any better, but they undoubtedly have more potential.

Enlighten me how have they more potential based on what????
Won all Ireland yes but struggling minor extra time beat cork coached by one worst ever minor managers

This current Waterford team have done what exactly

archieknox

Its warming up nicely on here now! Id say just throw in the ball straight away and lets get it on!!!

Orizio

citykat wrote: »

If he stayed upright a bit more it might be easier to assess him. One of the worst for diving in the modern game.

Think you are confusing him with Richie 'flopper' Power.

Figsy32

redlead wrote: »

Thinkstoomuch - you take stream of consciousness to a whole new level. Joyce would be proud of you.

From reading your posts, I think that you really overrate this Cork team. They are a good side with some very good players just like Waterford. Neither team are anything special at the moment but Waterford definitely have better potential to turn into title contenders in a couple of years time. Just look at who is starring for the UCC team.

The current teams are very even at the moment and I think that the results in the league final and championship will reflect that.

Just regarding UCC, it's not really a fair indicator as any Cork lads from Senior clubs can't play in championship. Fitzgibbon would be a much better judge, even though it's a pretty skewed one either way.

That club championship team you're missing out on intercounty lads like Cadogan, Killian Burke and Lehane as well as lots of excellent club players such as Darren McCarthy, Shane O'Keeffe, Rikard Cahalane and Daniel Roche (and others) who all would've played Fitz.

Interesting in looking at the two games, I'd say Cork's glaring weakness is at 3, but is it fair to say the way Waterford are likely to play means this mightn't be exposed as much as it could be? Other than that I'd say our back line are all solid rather than spectacular. Ellis makes an enormous difference to the unit though it seems to be in an unseen way. You only really notice it when he's not playing.

I'd fancy Cork to have a big advantage at midfield though. Although, Tipp proved last year you may be able to crowd them out of it.

I'm a little surprised at the judgment of Kearney on here. With the exception of probably Harnedy he's been by far and away our best performer in the past couple years. The amount of dirty ball he comes up with is incredible, he's perpetual motion. Bar Tipp last year (and he was still one of our better players that day, although that doesn't equate to much) I can't really think of a championship game where he hasn't played well.

Other than that I wouldn't say there's a whole lot of difference between the two sides except for maybe Cork are that bit more experienced and a little further along in their development.

redlead

Orizio wrote: »

...eh? The majority of the UCC Fitz team was from Cork with a handful from Waterford.

I said "starring"

citykat

Orizio wrote: »

Think you are confusing him with Richie 'flopper' Power.

It's a bit rich for a Cork supporter to be calling a KK player a flopper.

Figsy32

redlead wrote: »

I said "starring"

Against Cork club intermediate and junior players. Look at the CIT team. I'd be seriously worried if those lads weren't playing well.

Again, its not really indicative of a difference between COrk and Waterford when so many of the Cork UCC lads aren't playing with UCC because they'll be playing with other senior clubs instead.

crottys lake

Are there any round of matches on in Cork next weekend ? I see that the Board here have a round of football on. That would mean that Brick, Tadhg De Burca, Brian O'Halloran and Jamie Barron are affected and that one of those games is on Sunday night. Touch is everything in hurling, I just wonder would a round of the Hurling Championship be more appropriate if anything was going to be played ? It is a League final after all and it is not everyday we are in one of them with a chance of silverware which would mean so much to the County.

willietherock

citykat wrote: »

If he stayed upright a bit more it might be easier to assess him. One of the worst for diving in the modern game.

Speaking of diving how is the biggest diver in the history of hurling , Eoin Larkin doing at the moment?

Mountainlad

Figsy32 wrote: »

Just regarding UCC, it's not really a fair indicator as any Cork lads from Senior clubs can't play in championship. Fitzgibbon would be a much better judge, even though it's a pretty skewed one either way.

That club championship team you're missing out on intercounty lads like Cadogan, Killian Burke and Lehane as well as lots of excellent club players such as Darren McCarthy, Shane O'Keeffe, Rikard Cahalane and Daniel Roche (and others) who all would've played Fitz.

Interesting in looking at the two games, I'd say Cork's glaring weakness is at 3, but is it fair to say the way Waterford are likely to play means this mightn't be exposed as much as it could be? Other than that I'd say our back line are all solid rather than spectacular. Ellis makes an enormous difference to the unit though it seems to be in an unseen way. You only really notice it when he's not playing.

I'd fancy Cork to have a big advantage at midfield though. Although, Tipp proved last year you may be able to crowd them out of it.

I'm a little surprised at the judgment of Kearney on here. With the exception of probably Harnedy he's been by far and away our best performer in the past couple years. The amount of dirty ball he comes up with is incredible, he's perpetual motion. Bar Tipp last year (and he was still one of our better players that day, although that doesn't equate to much) I can't really think of a championship game where he hasn't played well.

Other than that I wouldn't say there's a whole lot of difference between the two sides except for maybe Cork are that bit more experienced and a little further along in their development.

We seemed to create enough space inside second half, and if you had Dunford on Cahalane it could cause serious problems but I know what you mean. They may adapt the tactic a little bit to take note of that. There's been very little real analysis of what they're actually doing yet either, I think the Donegal comments that were thrown out there a few weeks back are way off.

I would say Kearney is a good player but he's being made out to be better than he is. Jamie Barron hasn't really got the opportunity to show what he's made of given he was injured all last year and only 19 the year before. He was man of the match two games ago and was very close to winning it on Sunday too so for him to be dismissed is crazy really. Kevin Moran is big game player and though he's frustrated me sometimes he was immense on Sunday.

Yer other midfielder who is Rob O Shea is at best as unproven as Barron so I don't see where the big advantage is. Walsh would add a physical dynamic and strengthen that area if moved there but from what I could tell he was moved to wing back when he was struggling at center back with McLoughlin going center.

Mountainlad

citykat wrote: »

If he stayed upright a bit more it might be easier to assess him. One of the worst for diving in the modern game.

Orizio wrote: »

Think you are confusing him with Richie 'flopper' Power.

citykat wrote: »

It's a bit rich for a Cork supporter to be calling a KK player a flopper.

willietherock wrote: »

Speaking of diving how is the biggest diver in the history of hurling , Eoin Larkin doing at the moment?

Go home lads and have a cup of tea for yerselves

Figsy32

Mountainlad wrote: »

We seemed to create enough space inside second half, and if you had Dunford on Cahalane it could cause serious problems but I know what you mean. They may adapt the tactic a little bit to take note of that. There's been very little real analysis of what they're actually doing yet either, I think the Donegal comments that were thrown out there a few weeks back are way off.

I would say Kearney is a good player but he's being made out to be better than he is. Jamie Barron hasn't really got the opportunity to show what he's made of given he was injured all last year and only 19 the year before. He was man of the match two games ago and was very close to winning it on Sunday too so for him to be dismissed is crazy really. Kevin Moran is big game player and though he's frustrated me sometimes he was immense on Sunday.

Yer other midfielder who is Rob O Shea is at best as unproven as Barron so I don't see where the big advantage is. Walsh would add a physical dynamic and strengthen that area if moved there but from what I could tell he was moved to wing back when he was struggling at center back with McLoughlin going center.

It's a moot point if they do, and this is in line with the lack of analysis on Waterford but if they don't have 3 in the inside forward line i'd expect Cork to play with McDonnell and O'Neill marking the two inside forwards, Cahalane to 5, Lorchan to the centre with Ellis playing the spare man in front of the full back line. Cahalane or McDonnell may switch depending on the match-ups. Ellis was excellent in that role last year, used the ball really well and had a good sense of position. That tactic worked well last year, i'd be confident in that set up.

If all fit, it'll be Walsh in the middle with Kearney and not O'Shea who may play at 12 ahead of Cooper. He's had a very good league campaign to be fair. Moran's a serious hurler but he seems to drift out of games in a big way. I saw Barron play a few times in person early in the year and was very impressed I must say. Like you said though, it's hard to know as he's so young and it's a big step up (i'm talking about the championship game rather than the first game) but there's potential there.

If it came down to it, I'd fancy Walsh to be too athletic for Moran and Kearney to be too good for Barron at this stage of his development but it's just an opinion.

tomwaterford

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

Enlighten me how have they more potential based on what????
Won all Ireland yes but struggling minor extra time beat cork coached by one worst ever minor managers

This current Waterford team have done what exactly

Beat the best team in the country at the moment last Sunday for one

Player for player this Waterford team holds more potential than cork....that is one thing anyway

Reaching that all Ireland against clare which would have been pure robbery on Clare if they had won the drawn game if we being honest here (was at it)

That's as good as it'll get for them....jbm is a super manager and coach....he has them as good as they are going to be though...whereas most people even Derek Mcgrath biggest fans accept there is still room for improvement
Dublin left them off the hook a little with stupid frees....and they've one of the few real superstars of the minute in pat Horgan and that's what kept them in it

3ships

Limerick 0-7 Waterford 3-6 ht MFC

culbaire

Munster Minor Football play off
Waterford 3-10 Limerick 2-14 (Full time )

redlead

culbaire wrote: »

Munster Minor Football play off
Waterford 3-10 Limerick 2-14 (Full time )

Christ that's some turnaround in the second half

Twiceasnice97

stumblingblock wrote: »

I’ll admit this year is the year to do something at this grade if we ever are. I think last year with Clare being so strong we wouldnt have beaten them in Ennis anyway had we beaten Cork like we should have.. This year Tipp and Limerick the other side of the draw. Limerick obviously will be good weve seen them at minor the past 2 years and Tipp won the All Ireland minor 3 years ago. We have a better side than Cork on paper but as weve seen last year that counts for nothing. Most of that outstanding Clare team are now overage bar Shane O’Donnell and Bobby Duggan. we have beaten Clare at minor the last 3 years in a row so the law of averages should show we should be beating them at u21 this year, however given how we have showed in this grade in recent times I wouldn’t be confident about beating anyone. But to be honest as long as the u21 lads are making progress with the seniors I wont be losing too much sleep about this grade.

the only other players from last years team under age rhis year are Keith Hogan the goal keeper conor cleary the centre back and jamie shanahan who was at wing back .

having said that the under 21 team without those players have had some good results in challenges and the team will look very different to the 2012 minor team i suspect even though that team had a good year at minor losing to tipp in the munster final by a few points and to dublin in the all ireland semi to a last minute goal

thinkstoomuch1

tomwaterford wrote: »

Beat the best team in the country at the moment last Sunday for one

Player for player this Waterford team holds more potential than cork....that is one thing anyway

Reaching that all Ireland against clare which would have been pure robbery on Clare if they had won the drawn game if we being honest here (was at it)

That's as good as it'll get for them....jbm is a super manager and coach....he has them as good as they are going to be though...whereas most people even Derek Mcgrath biggest fans accept there is still room for improvement
Dublin left them off the hook a little with stupid frees....and they've one of the few real superstars of the minute in pat Horgan and that's what kept them in it

Tom your views at times I find interesting to say the least
Last week you came out that Waterford had better hurlers one by one and upon closer view that view mellowed a bit
Totally agree clare dominated cork for one hundred forty minutes I was at them too
However clare have nothing do with cork as cork and Waterford and have cork not beaten Waterford recently when they met
Have Waterford beaten clare???
What have Waterford done


How are tipp best team in country seriously???
At present kind means all hair oil no socks in league because KK in transition is not true value and I guarantee you KK would beat tipp if they had to
Yes tipp beat weak KK but KK beat them last year league final and all Ireland
Tipp are not best team in country and were missing key men Sunday
Sorry now but thinking ye beat second team in Ireland at best makes ye some what top of the pack imo is just a pile nonsense with no logic

Please explain how waterford have more potential and what proves mcgrath can unlock that potential
Still lot questions remain to be answered with Waterford imo
And seen as you reference clare have cork not beaten clsre last year munster and this year league
How did Waterford do last year
Beaten by cork and wexford you will find

tomwaterford

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

Tom your views at times I find interesting to say the least
Last week you came out that Waterford had better hurlers one by one and upon closer view that view mellowed a bit
Totally agree clare dominated cork for one hundred forty minutes I was at them too
However clare have nothing do with cork as cork and Waterford and have cork not beaten Waterford recently when they met
Have Waterford beaten clare???
What have Waterford done


How are tipp best team in country seriously???
At present kind means all hair oil no socks in league because KK in transition is not true value and I guarantee you KK would beat tipp if they had to
Yes tipp beat weak KK but KK beat them last year league final and all Ireland
Tipp are not best team in country and were missing key men Sunday
Sorry now but thinking ye beat second team in Ireland at best makes ye some what top of the pack imo is just a pile nonsense with no logic

Please explain how waterford have more potential and what proves mcgrath can unlock that potential
Still lot questions remain to be answered with Waterford imo
And seen as you reference clare have cork not beaten clsre last year munster and this year league
How did Waterford do last year
Beaten by cork and wexford you will find

You are comparing apples and oranges comparing Waterford this year and last year

I do remain to be convinced McGrath is the right man for the job....but he has earned the right for a chance to prove himself

I do still take issue with your assertion that 1-9 cork are better

As IMO Connors,de burca,gleeson,fives,okeefe would walk onto any team and coughlan is as Nearly good as any full back in the country Atm

Mahoney hasn't put a foot wrong before Sunday

And for midfield Barron and Moran are a match for most counties atm....hogan of kk is exceptional though....this is the makings of an super team considering there are 4 or 5 super youngsters to come into that team in the next year or two

thinkstoomuch1

tomwaterford wrote: »

You are comparing apples and oranges comparing Waterford this year and last year

I do remain to be convinced McGrath is the right man for the job....but he has earned the right for a chance to prove himself

I do still take issue with your assertion that 1-9 cork are better

As IMO Connors,de burca,gleeson,fives,okeefe would walk onto any team and coughlan is as Nearly good as any full back in the country Atm

Mahoney hasn't put a foot wrong before Sunday

And for midfield Barron and Moran are a match for most counties atm....hogan of kk is exceptional though....this is the makings of an super team considering there are 4 or 5 super youngsters to come into that team in the next year or two

No they wouldn't walk on any team in the country

Burke and glesson possible in future walk on KK team
KK is the barometer to use
Who else
Coughlan best full-back in the country
Seriously now he's protect by a sweeper yer tipp tore him apart for two goal
Apples and oranges imo compare him with riche mac who imo miles better than him
How many cork lads would cody have
Now defo two in harnedy would absolutely and only question is where they would play him
Nash imo would
Horgan would and cody said it before in interview but imo horgan have be consistent but under cody no doubt be making horgan in he'd be told shape up or ship out
Imo three current lads push place KK team
Waterford imo have two but in time not now

You don't want apples oranges situation fair enough compare Waterford last year to this yet you bring all Ireland with cork two years ago in to
Let's be fair now



Cork team beaten by clare are miles apart in harnedy for one is gone up another level, cork play deeper, cadogan cooper Walsh and Murphy have all added to this team to then

Lehane has grown and is now played at half forward
Ellis been huge addition at centre back
Lorcan is playing half back and not midfield

I can give more examples