Luas Red Line security issues mega thread (read mod warming in post #1)

Lau2976

syklops wrote: »

What do you suggest?

Complaining to the luas. Bringing complaints against negligent security staff. Filming incidents, writing or visiting tds, taking legal action against the luas for negligence. On a wider scale? Protests, boycotts, petitions. The luas has a clear monopoly in this country but that doesn't mean you have to deal with their shi tty services if you don't want.

varuka

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Tallaght stop closed, two men assaulted and hospitalised, no arrests.



This attack was on Paddys Day and could have happened anywhere ... There were attacks/ incidents all over the city.

syklops

Lau2976 wrote: »

Complaining to the luas. Bringing complaints against negligent security staff. Filming incidents, writing or visiting tds, taking legal action against the luas for negligence. On a wider scale? Protests, boycotts, petitions. The luas has a clear monopoly in this country but that doesn't mean you have to deal with their shi tty services if you don't want.

Not sure I've witnessed negligence by security staff. They are like the cavalry, once they appear the chances of something erupting lessens. Pity they aren't on every Luas I take though.

Lau2976

syklops wrote: »

Not sure I've witnessed negligence by security staff. They are like the cavalry, once they appear the chances of something erupting lessens. Pity they aren't on every Luas I take though.

I suppose that greatly differs based on your expectations of security staff. I got mugged on the luas, while there was two security guards the other side of the train and got told ( about 15 minutes after the incident when I was too shaken up to care what tye were telling me) that the luas was sorry for the incident but took no liability an that security staff can't put themselves into dangerous situations. Personally, I would think that's negligent, while I know others agree with the luas on it.


Although I should add that while I was getting mugged they were trying to get someone off the tram.

syklops

Lau2976 wrote: »

I suppose that greatly differs based on your expectations of security staff. I got mugged on the luas, while there was two security guards the other side of the train and got told ( about 15 minutes after the incident when I was too shaken up to care what tye were telling me) that the luas was sorry for the incident but took no liability an that security staff can't put themselves into dangerous situations. Personally, I would think that's negligent, while I know others agree with the luas on it.


Although I should add that while I was getting mugged they were trying to get someone off the tram.

What did you do next?

Lau2976

syklops wrote: »

What did you do next?

I'd love to be able to say I kicked up a fuss ad made them aware that I was unhappy but I didn't. I did nothing. I was scared to think about what happened- that I had been so powerless and that on a packed luas not one person had come to my aid. Some people barely batted an eyelid. Honestly I was terrified. All I could think was how it hadn't happened in some dark alleyway late at night, or in some dodgey back street but on a busy luas in the middle of the day.

I regret doing nothing because as far as I'm concerned if the luas had of had proper security staff they would have left the person who, from my recollection, did nothing more then refuse to give their information for not paying the ticket fare, and come to try to stop a mugging.

syklops

So you don't think your statement below is a little hypocritical?

I would be if the additude that if your not working to change it in some way then moaning isn't going to help.

Lau2976

syklops wrote: »

So you don't think your statement below is a little hypocritical?

No am I complaining? I'm simply saying that they didn't do as I expect security to do. You put forward that you had never seen an instance of one singular part of my post, I countered with that I had experienced it. I don't see how that's complaining.

monument

This will be a mega thread for Luas red line security issues. Other threads will be soon locked.

Constructive posts only -- please read the charter before posting.

Claiming a tram line which is used by thousands of people a day should be close down will no longer be entertained and will be viewed as non-constructive, distributive posting which will be sanctioned. Making such a claim does nothing to address the on-going issues.

LXFlyer

Perhaps you should set up a thread for suggestions on dealing with the social issues that are causing the security problems on the LUAS red line, and on certain Dublin Bus routes (such as the 13, 27, 40, 77a and 79) that have all had curtailments lately due to anti-social behaviour, and on Irish Rail at locations such as Broombridge, Kilbarrack, Howth Junction and Bayside.

The underlying issues are ones that are far wider in society than particular to public transport.

Tow

But this is the Commuting and Transport forum.

My suggestion.

Proper transport police/ticket inspectors, along the lines of the Paris Metro. Not just ticket inspectors who ignore the undesirables or two 'large' fellows who have no more powers than you or I.

They travel in large teams. No ticket = On the sport fine. No money to pay = Escorted to an ATM. Still no money = Escorted to a cell in the nearest police station, until someone pays your fine.

Edit:
Mounment: Can you add links to and from the old threads, to stop them getting lost.

LXFlyer

Tow wrote: »

But this is the Commuting and Transport forum.

My suggestion.

Proper transport police/ticket inspectors, along the lines of the Paris Metro. Not just ticket inspectors who ignore the undesirables or two 'large' fellows who have no more powers than you or I.

They travel in large teams. No ticket = On the sport fine. No money to pay = Escorted to an ATM. Still no money = Escorted to a cell in the nearest police station, until someone pays your fine.

I'm really making the point that society at large doesn't want to deal with the underlying issues.

You can have all the powers you want on board public transport, but the "undesirables" will generally be back out the door in a matter of hours if current practice is anything to go by.

Until society and the powers that be take the underlying problems seriously, we are going to be in a constant revolving door situation.

triple nipple

I was in Edinburgh recently, and on the tram there is a customer service assistant/helper type person who checks all the tickets from beginning to finish of the journey.

If you had no ticket they charge you 10 pounds for a ticket. I never saw anyone misbehaving on it probably because there is consistent presence of authority on board.

I think if we had this on the red line there would be less trouble. Also have to say they were very polite and helpful. No need for giant security guards over there.

punisher5112

If the security and ticket checkers along with the rest of the staff should have more powers to help deal with these fools that take over and make life hell for the decent folks out there.

Free travel should never have been opened up to all hours of the day and hopefully with the roll out of the new smart cards they will eventually charge certain types.

As has been said times and times again a proper policing unit to deal with problems who solely deal with transport problems.

The ticket checkers or rpu from what others have said only check the normal folk and leave the drug addicts alone especially those creating trouble.

Laws have to be stricter as it seems all we ever hear is suspended sentance and no time and even not even a slap on the wrist.

Judicial system needs to be overhauled and people that cause trouble should be correctly dealt with and make it hard for them to ever cause trouble again in ways that it hurts most making them pay and lose some sort of benefits.

Tow

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm really making the point that society at large doesn't want to deal with the underlying issues.

Such as 3 strikes and your out. How many times have you seen court cases where it is the defendants 30, 40, 50, 60, 80, 90th + conviction.

Or

My Grandfathers solution (as someone who lived through two world wars) was to have another war, so all the undesirables would be rounded up/conscripted to fight and die on the front lines.

monument

Note to all:

Tow wrote: »

My Grandfathers solution (as someone who lived through two world wars) was to have another war, so all the undesirables would be rounded up/conscripted to fight and die on the front lines.

Construction posts only.

Last warning for all.

-- moderator

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

Perhaps you should set up a thread for suggestions on dealing with the social issues that are causing the security problems on the LUAS red line, and on certain Dublin Bus routes (such as the 13, 27, 40, 77a and 79) that have all had curtailments lately due to anti-social behaviour, and on Irish Rail at locations such as Broombridge, Kilbarrack, Howth Junction and Bayside.

The underlying issues are ones that are far wider in society than particular to public transport.

I was halfway into renaming the thread but... I think this thread is better to remain mainly focused on the red line given that the issue on that line is so acute and that other issues might be better served by their own threads, but it's more than ok to post here or start new threads about general things security solutions like a transport police or the general issue of different kind of security etc.

frankoreagan

Don't see how the establishment of a transport police would help tbh. Such an entity would still have to deal with the shoddy court and prison system the guards currently use.

Proper homeless and addiction services ,and either the removal of free travel for anyone other than pensioners or people with a physical/mental disability. Make other pass-holders, IE the kind that smoke hash and drink openly on routes like the 40 at 1pm on a weekday, contribute half the fare. Guarantee they wouldn't pay it, and the travel experience for other passengers would dramatically improve.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

I was halfway into renaming the thread but... I think this thread is better to remain mainly focused on the red line given that the issue on that line is so acute and that other issues might be better served by their own threads, but it's more than ok to post here or start new threads about general things security solutions like a transport police or the general issue of different kind of security etc.

I am not sure it is particularly more acute than the problems that routes such as the 51b/c, 77, 78a or 79 suffered for years before the LUAS arrived. The difference is that it is far more visible to the world at large, as more (and I dislike using this term, but it is appropriate) middle class people use the trams than would have used those bus routes.


The problem just migrated from the buses to the trams.


The point I'm making is that this is a far wider problem than tying it down to LUAS Red Line - it is a basic societal issue.

KCAccidental

Red or Green?

frankoreagan

lxflyer wrote: »

I am not sure it is particularly more acute than the problems that routes such as the 51b/c, 77, 78a or 79 suffered for years before the LUAS arrived. The difference is that it is far more visible to the world at large, as more (and I dislike using this term, but it is appropriate) middle class people use the trams than would have used those bus routes.


The problem just migrated from the buses to the trams.


The point I'm making is that this is a far wider problem than tying it down to LUAS Red Line - it is a basic societal issue.

That's it pretty much. Was far easier to ignore the problem when it was confined to the routes just serving poorer areas. Once it worries middle class folk and tourists it's a crisis and something must be done!

foggy_lad

triple nipple wrote: »

I was in Edinburgh recently, and on the tram there is a customer service assistant/helper type person who checks all the tickets from beginning to finish of the journey.

If you had no ticket they charge you 10 pounds for a ticket. I never saw anyone misbehaving on it probably because there is consistent presence of authority on board.

I think if we had this on the red line there would be less trouble. Also have to say they were very polite and helpful. No need for giant security guards over there.

It is more to do with the Police and different legal system in Scotland and how the prosecutor fiscal handles crimes like we are seeing and hearing about on the Luas. not paying a fare or being abusive on public transport gets you an on the spot fine or appearance in front of a magistrate the next morning after a night in the cells where you could get another 7 days in jail.

punisher5112 wrote: »

If the security and ticket checkers along with the rest of the staff should have more powers to help deal with these fools that take over and make life hell for the decent folks out there.

Free travel should never have been opened up to all hours of the day and hopefully with the roll out of the new smart cards they will eventually charge certain types.

As has been said times and times again a proper policing unit to deal with problems who solely deal with transport problems.

The ticket checkers or rpu from what others have said only check the normal folk and leave the drug addicts alone especially those creating trouble.

Laws have to be stricter as it seems all we ever hear is suspended sentance and no time and even not even a slap on the wrist.

Judicial system needs to be overhauled and people that cause trouble should be correctly dealt with and make it hard for them to ever cause trouble again in ways that it hurts most making them pay and lose some sort of benefits.

Free travel is not the main problem on public transport and never was. the problem are people who are just anti-social and have been raised to feel that they can get whatever they need or want by fear and intimidation and just by taking all the time.

The only real solution is to deny these people all social benefits including any benefits payments they receive and all free legal aid.

KCAccidental wrote: »

http://i.imgur.com/pciH4MYl.png


Red or Green?

Looks like red line as the green trams have different grab rails at the doors.

punisher5112

Foggy I don't mean all travel passes just the types that will abuse.

I'm sure you understand what I mean.

Kermit.de.frog

monument wrote: »

This will be a mega thread for Luas red line security issues. Other threads will be soon locked.

Constructive posts only -- please read the charter before posting.

Claiming a tram line which is used by thousands of people a day should be close down will no longer be entertained and will be viewed as non-constructive, distributive posting which will be sanctioned. Making such a claim does nothing to address the on-going issues.

Closing it down, for a period at least to think and try and get a handle on the security implications of the line (and/or placing time restrictions on use), is an option if the decline continues. Obviously one would prefer the carrot first, but sooner or later the stick has to come out. The fact of the matter is many people feel this line is intimidating and at certain times borderline risky. You can't stop people having this opinion. They are voting with their feet. Dublin Bus cuts services regularly enough in certain areas for the reason either passengers or drivers are at risk.

Let's remember who is responsible for much of the trouble and tone on this line (a side from the perpetrators themselves) - Dublin City Council through their planning policies. And they refuse point blank to deal with the core issue - the proliferation of methadone clinics in the north inner city. It is attrocious that a free ferry service for heroin addicts has been provided to the main street of our capital city (and the children's court). It really is. It's vandalism of the city center actually driving people away from it and it is not right.

I can't think of any other capital city in Europe that, by design of the planners, would do this to their own city center.

And something radical has to happen because this image, reality of Dublin's north city center is sticking and the Luas red line unfortunately is the focal point of the nastiest underbelly Dublin has to offer and it is getting worse.

We need a properly resourced transport police (we got a traffic corps so why not?), we need to do something about the clinics but we also need to drive home responsibility to the communities the line goes through.

One thing that should be considered in my opinion, and I agree 100% with all those who mentioned it, is the removal of free tavel passes for those caught involved in anti social behaviour or drug use on the line. Not only is it being tolerated but we continue to actively pay for it. It's ridiculous.

But my main concern from a public safety point of view regarding this line is the courts along it. How many individuals are getting on this tram with their travel passes day in, day out with 50, 100, 150 + convictions? I would be very worried that one day in the not too distant future someone is going to get seriously hurt or worse on a tram on the line. Is that what it will take to wake our planners and politicians up?

And what really angers me the most above all is that given the areas notorious for anti social behaviour issues, the courts and methadone clinics the line serves an ape could have foreseen what would happen. Each individually is fine. But when you combine them in to one artery it's an absolutely toxic combination. This is a consequence of bad planning.

foggy_lad

punisher5112 wrote: »

Foggy I don't mean all travel passes just the types that will abuse.

I'm sure you understand what I mean.

Indeed I know the type but many of the worst of those don't have free travel but never pay for trams or trains anyway! Many more are using fake passes and until a zero tolerance policy is put in place regarding passes being legible and in reasonable condition then these criminals using fake passes will always get away with it. More RPU checks on trains and I don't mean on the cork train where the bulk of them hang around thurles for some reason, they should be camped out at the likes of broom bridge and all other hotspots.

Dublin bus must have killed off all their inspectors because I have not seen one on a bus checking tickets and passes in years and the only guy I have seen in town hides out at the 145 stop on Aston quay. Seen a woman last week hold her purse upmto the reader on the bus but it was clear to me that the beeping sound came from the phone she had been fidgeting with seconds before in her other hand, she will only get caught if an inspector boards the bus!

As for the red line well it really is bad especially on wet and cold nights when the drug users take it over for shelter. Most people are not used to seeing and hearing this kind of behaviour and it breeds an atmosphere of fear and intimidation. What is needed are inspectors and security to prevent these people from using the trams. Security already target certain individuals who have been barred from the luas and will always eject anyone who is drinking or doing anything worse than sleeping. Never mind having inspectors going after normal passengers but have them targeting the troublemakers.

mickydoomsux

foggy_lad wrote: »

Indeed I know the type but many of the worst of those don't have free travel but never pay for trams or trains anyway! Many more are using fake passes and until a zero tolerance policy is put in place regarding passes being legible and in reasonable condition then these criminals using fake passes will always get away with it. More RPU checks on trains and I don't mean on the cork train where the bulk of them hang around thurles for some reason, they should be camped out at the likes of broom bridge and all other hotspots.

Dublin bus must have killed off all their inspectors because I have not seen one on a bus checking tickets and passes in years and the only guy I have seen in town hides out at the 145 stop on Aston quay. Seen a woman last week hold her purse upmto the reader on the bus but it was clear to me that the beeping sound came from the phone she had been fidgeting with seconds before in her other hand, she will only get caught if an inspector boards the bus!

As for the red line well it really is bad especially on wet and cold nights when the drug users take it over for shelter. Most people are not used to seeing and hearing this kind of behaviour and it breeds an atmosphere of fear and intimidation. What is needed are inspectors and security to prevent these people from using the trams. Security already target certain individuals who have been barred from the luas and will always eject anyone who is drinking or doing anything worse than sleeping. Never mind having inspectors going after normal passengers but have them targeting the troublemakers.

I work for IE and 99.9% of the trouble we have at my location is with people who are legitimate FTP holders.

KCAccidental

I suppose the crux of the issue is should drug addicts be classed as disabled?

Addiction is a serious illness of course.

mickydoomsux

KCAccidental wrote: »

I suppose the crux of the issue is should drug addicts be classed as disabled?

Addiction is a serious illness of course.

Give them HSE travel warrants if they need to travel for treatment.

Aard

The free travel passes aren't really the issue. The Luas is an open system so people would still get on, pass or not.

Kermit.de.frog

Aard wrote: »

The free travel passes aren't really the issue. The Luas is an open system so people would still get on, pass or not.

So then the nature of it has to change. It needs to be segregated.


What disappoints me a lot is that the red line gives the lie to those that said Dublin is a modern european city compatible with hop on/hop off tram systems - this is clearly not the case.

The red line is only the start. Wait till the luas cross city line is running. It's going to get worse but the powers that be don't seem to care.

The Luas imo was a mistake for a city that has not evolved to that level. It's as simple as that.