Luas Red Line security issues mega thread (read mod warming in post #1)

anncoates · 11-03-2015 12:18am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There's no value in getting personal; if you had a strong case you wouldn't need to make pejorative remarks that are based on your own prejudices rather than anything I've posted..

This is just at best meaningless debating semantics; at worst disingenuous deflection.

I don't have any prejudices about the people that use the line or the areas it passes through, being from one of these areas, possibly the one perceived most negatively by the hysterics brigade.

I've made a strong case about the line based on a few years of constant use. In fact, a far stronger case than yours which appears to be an simple ad hominem attempt to paint people as unstreetwise, prejudicial aul wans in comparison to yourself

I'm not sure what more I can say., to be honest.

nullzero · 11-03-2015 1:03am

Sleveile wrote: »

Live in Saggart aswell but dont use the Luas. With the bus you have to pay to get on, on the luas the door opens and anyone/anything can just walk on.

This is spot on. Every scrote in West Tallaght knows that the Luas is free transport for scum bags. Two drivers were made redundant from the extended line to Saggart less than a year into operation as no one was paying a damn shilling to use the thing apart from people commuting to jobs in Citywest and others going to the Citywest hotel.
The incidents of violence and vandalism of trams in 2011 on that extension went beyond what was ever seen even of the red line up to that point. Gardai were slow to deal with the issue to say the least to the point of seeming disinterested. The vandalism has stopped for the most part after the group of little cnuts responsible were eventually arrested, but fare dodging and theft of phones on that section of the red line is still rife. The lack of powers of Luas security beyond their trams platforms and tracks and an over worked local Gardai means these scrotes can and do whatever they like without any reprocusions. I wouldn't travel on that line given the choice, anyone using it regularly enough will become the victim of crime eventually, most likely violent crime.

moleyv · 11-03-2015 1:07am

I used to travel between Heuston and Connolly a fair bit.

There were always people drinking cans, drunk, off their face a fair bit.

I wouldn't be too worried about that stuff personally, but it meant I always kept alert due to a general thuggish atmosphere. I couldn't just get on, sit down and relax.

I saw many a worried face on tourists, such infrastructure should be a major asset for tourists, but if they don't feel comfortable it could be damaging.

Probably the worst thing I saw was approaching one of the stops, there was about five lads, probably 12-15 years old. when they saw the luas approaching, they ran over and started hitting some random guy in his 30s. He had fairly sallow skin and was likely a tourist.

He fell to the ground, they took his phone and then proceeded to kick him for another ten seconds.

Then they all ran onto the luas for an easy get away. Driver saw it, but closed the doors and went on as normal. They gave him a fair thumping going by the noises he made.

I think proper transport guards could do a lot to sort out issues.

frankoreagan · 11-03-2015 1:24am

Will have to sort out the inefficiency and general disinterest of the guards that currently exist, before we go about creating transport ones.

11-03-2015 1:31am

anncoates wrote: »

This is just at best meaningless debating semantics; at worst disingenuous deflection.

You couldn't answer me so you tried to take personal swipes. That just makes your argument seem weak. If you had a case you'd make it. You're not making it, and it's not for the want of effort, so the most logical assumption to make is that you don't have all that strong a case.

anncoates wrote: »

I'm not sure what more I can say., to be honest.

I don't think there's much more you can say either. I've suggested some evidence rather than assertions, but that doesn't seem to be going down too well (not just with yourself, I hasten to add).

Anyway, you've said it already; there are things that could be better, but it's not that much of an issue. As you've probably noticed, I don't think it's that much of an issue either.

I suspect that most of what you call the "hysterics brigade" either don't use the Red Line at all or use it rarely, so their "I'll never use it again" attitude isn't going to dent either the pride or the passenger statistics of the operators. And if someone is living close to the line but stays away, they must be something of a rarity given the increasing number of customers who are using the service.

anncoates · 11-03-2015 9:45am

Deleted User wrote: »

so the most logical assumption to make is that you don't have all that strong a case.

Right.

My case is based on the fact that I traveled that line (pretty much terminus to terminus) nearly every day for a few years. I have observed a pretty decent level of regular antisocial behaviour. Not enough to stop using the service but enough to label it an issue. I'm personally not afraid of most of them but some paying customers would understandably be, without falling into an OTT category.

What exactly is your case? That people are 'prejudiced' or 'afraid'? All I've read otherwise so far is that the customer numbers are rising on the red line. So what? I've already said I won't stop getting it. That doesn't negate the fact that there's a problem at times on the service. It's meaningless to say rising numbers negate the issue. I could just make the equally airy assertion that numbers would be rising even higher if the issues were not there.

Where are you from by the way? You keep skipping the question as 'too personal' while still finding it perfectly acceptable to insinuate that anybody complaining is some kind of middle-class snob. It would be pretty rich if you're on here lecturing people about prejudice when you've probably never set foot in any of the areas for which you're so nobly taking up the cudgels. Like your conflation of riding the Red Luas line with your bad ass 'cautious' sorties home to Rathmines from Georges Street.

How often do you take the red line? And how far on the service do you travel?

If you reply to this post with another pseudo-discursive, blackball plea for 'evidence' , you'll just be going on ignore as a windup merchant.

syklops · 11-03-2015 10:14am

anncoates wrote: »

Right.

My case is based on the fact that I traveled that line (pretty much terminus to terminus) nearly every day for a few years. I have observed a pretty decent level of regular antisocial behaviour. Not enough to stop using the service but enough to label it an issue. I'm personally not afraid of most of them but some paying customers would understandably be, without falling into an OTT category.

What exactly is your case? That people are 'prejudiced' or 'afraid'? All I've read otherwise so far is that the customer numbers are rising on the red line. So what? I've already said I won't stop getting it. That doesn't negate the fact that there's a problem at times on the service. It's meaningless to say rising numbers negate the issue. I could just make the equally airy assertion that numbers would be rising even higher if the issues were not there.

Where are you from by the way? You keep skipping the question as 'too personal' while still finding it perfectly acceptable to insinuate that anybody complaining is some kind of middle-class snob. It would be pretty rich if you're on here lecturing people about prejudice when you've probably never set foot in any of the areas for which you're so nobly taking up the cudgels. Like your conflation of riding the Red Luas line with your bad ass 'cautious' sorties home to Rathmines from Georges Street.

How often do you take the red line? And how far on the service do you travel?

If you reply to this post with another pseudo-discursive, blackball plea for 'evidence' , you'll just be going on ignore as a windup merchant.

Ann, drop it. He's a troll and you are feeding him. Most people have blocked him by now. Wheres your evidence? Wheres your evidence? Wheres your evidence? You'd have to be blind or have an ax to grind not to see the evidence.

n97 mini · 11-03-2015 12:56pm

Deleted User wrote: »

More Red Line guff - hysterical over-reaction without a screed of evidence to support it.

Seeing people you are prejudiced against doesn't qualify as hassle or trouble - this thread is like reading the Princess and the Pea.

I'm in agreement with others about trolling.

Article from 09/13 quoting official figures for Red Line I found after 5 seconds of googling titled Thug terror on Luas Red Line at record high

1,300 incidences of vandalism
264 incidents of soilage :eek:
250 cases in which staff and passengers were threatened.
1,050 incidents of vandalism involving ticket vending machines
90 drunks
103 tram windows broken

These are official figures so trying to discredit the Herald is a waste of time.

12-03-2015 12:46am

anncoates wrote: »

I'm personally not afraid of most of them but some paying customers would understandably be, without falling into an OTT category.

You've explained all this already, and we are not in disagreement with each other. Despite the nonsense peddled by one or two people posting on this thread, I haven't suggested that antisocial behaviour doesn't happen. Moreover, having used both lines I am well aware that they involve quite different clienteles and experiences, so to speak.

But people have made claims that the Red Line is in some way "overrun" with antisocial behaviour when they have no evidence that this is the case and when in fact the available information suggests that this is far from the case. They have also claimed that this is causing passengers to stay away when they have no evidence of this. They have claimed that people from other parts of the country are being scared away from Dublin city centre because of the Red Line, when they have no evidence of this. At least one person has made the illogical leap of claiming that this kind of anti-social behaviour is typical of all public transport in Ireland, and another has claimed that a Red Line trip without incident almost never happens, even though neither person has or could hope to have the evidence to support such outrageous claims. Someone else came up with the fantastic line - the absolute gem - that the problem with the Red Line is where it goes. It goes to the city centre. Where else should it go?

Then we move on to the "hang 'em and flog 'em" posts. We need more guards/dogs/jails/whatever - all straight out of the Evening Herald school of advanced justice policymaking - not only on the Red Line but everywhere around Ireland. Oh, and the obligatory posts claiming that "New York and/or London are safer".

Of course, the undercurrent here is the difference between "us" and "them", with "them" being "those who don't pay" - a free-for-all that allows people to get in wee digs at free pass holders/junkies/foreigners/travellers or whatever group of "others" takes their fancy.

anncoates wrote: »

You keep skipping the question as 'too personal' while still finding it perfectly acceptable to insinuate that anybody complaining is some kind of middle-class snob.

But the issue isn't personal and you should stop insisting on making it personal. It's poor show and if your argument is up to the mark then it simply isn't necessary. But for the avoidance of doubt, I don't at all mind laying claim to being the nearest thing you'll find in this thread to a middle-class snob. The difference between me and a lot of other contributors is that I can see my prejudices for what they are, so I do my best to set them aside and try to base my assumptions and my arguments on facts; not speculation, not intuition, not feelings, not hysterical newspaper reports, but information.

I travel the Red Line (mainly between Busaras and Smithfield, as it happens) often enough to know that some of the people on it at the same time as me are, frankly, the sort of people I wouldn't want to see hanging around outside my house or down my local pub. But the fact that they're there doesn't mean that Dublin is overrun with crime or that Ireland is a kip. It could be better, but the issues are not as bad as some people have tried to make out. I've said that and so have you.

syklops · 12-03-2015 1:01am

But people have made claims that the Red Line is in some way "overrun" with antisocial behaviour when they have no evidence

To avoid my blocklist can I ask you, what kind of evidence will satisfy you?

Photos? Videos? You clearly don't hold with anecdotal evidence. What might change your mind?

12-03-2015 1:13am

n97 mini wrote: »

These are official figures so trying to discredit the Herald is a waste of time.

With all due respect, it is never a waste of time to discredit that thoroughly execrable rag.

On the other hand, fair play to you for producing some numbers, which nobody else bothered doing.

Do you really think they're that bad? Honestly? Clearly, it would be better if there were fewer or no incidences of anti-social behaviour, vandalism or criminal actions of any kind. But we're talking about a service that carries millions of people each year - and runs a total of about 75,000 trams.

It would be better if there weren't 250 cases per year of people being threatened. But does one incident for every 300 trams run really mean that the Luas is overrun with threatening behaviour?

90 individuals drunk on trams? Compared to how many who are drunk and not on trams? Out of how many thousand people use the Red Line every day? What does that figure even mean?

Why does the Herald claim that meetings between the Luas operators and the Gardaí are a bad thing? You'd expect a transport operator to do this for a service that carries millions of passengers every year. Not meeting with the Gardaí would be reckless.

103 tram windows broken? Yes, it would be better if they weren't, but once again does having one broken window for every 700 or so trams mean that Dublin is being swamped by crime and anti-social behaviour?

I'll repeat what I said above. It would be better if there were fewer incidents and better still if there were none at all. But we don't live in a perfect world, and the key question is whether those statistics show something that should be improved or something that represents a major failure of law and order.

I think it's a case of something that should be improved. I also think that only a headline-chasing reporter or sub-editor could seriously claim that it represents a major failure of law and order or "Thug Terror". But if others seriously, genuinely think differently good luck to them.

galljga1 · 12-03-2015 1:19am

Tomorrow's headline in the Herald:

Ulysses1874 pushed in front of tram.

Only joking.....Really.

n97 mini · 12-03-2015 1:39am

Deleted User wrote: »

With all due respect, it is never a waste of time to discredit that thoroughly execrable rag.

On the other hand, fair play to you for producing some numbers, which nobody else bothered doing.

Do you really think they're that bad? Honestly? Clearly, it would be better if there were fewer or no incidences of anti-social behaviour, vandalism or criminal actions of any kind. But we're talking about a service that carries millions of people each year - and runs a total of about 75,000 trams.

It would be better if there weren't 250 cases per year of people being threatened. But does one incident for every 300 trams run really mean that the Luas is overrun with threatening behaviour?

90 individuals drunk on trams? Compared to how many who are drunk and not on trams? Out of how many thousand people use the Red Line every day? What does that figure even mean?

Why does the Herald claim that meetings between the Luas operators and the Gardaí are a bad thing? You'd expect a transport operator to do this for a service that carries millions of passengers every year. Not meeting with the Gardaí would be reckless.

103 tram windows broken? Yes, it would be better if they weren't, but once again does having one broken window for every 700 or so trams mean that Dublin is being swamped by crime and anti-social behaviour?

I'll repeat what I said above. It would be better if there were fewer incidents and better still if there were none at all. But we don't live in a perfect world, and the key question is whether those statistics show something that should be improved or something that represents a major failure of law and order.

I think it's a case of something that should be improved. I also think that only a headline-chasing reporter or sub-editor could seriously claim that it represents a major failure of law and order or "Thug Terror". But if others seriously, genuinely think differently good luck to them.

Would you care to give evidence that the Red Line is pro rata no worse than anything else? It seems to be your assertion.

neckedit · 12-03-2015 8:29am

Deleted User wrote:

Evidence rather than prejudice; it's a small ask, IMO.

what evidence are you expecting people to produce?
It is a well know that Red Line has some dodgey going's on, yes pepple are prone to exaggeration but in the large exaggeration is born from reality, lies are not, are you really suggesting these stories are lies perpetrated to belittle certain people in our society who feel they have a carte blanch to intimidate, steal,peddle or use drugs on public transport? Please don't waste your time playing the "Prejudice" card it carries very little weight with people who have genuinely witnessed harassment be it physical or emotionally.

5rtytry56 · 12-03-2015 9:44am

galljga1 wrote: »

Tomorrow's headline in the Herald:

Ulysses1874 pushed in front of tram.

Only joking.....Really.

gallja, like Ann You're feeding the troll again.

galljga1 · 12-03-2015 11:37am

5rtytry56 wrote: »

gallja, like Ann You're feeding the troll again.

O.K. maybe it was not a joke.

Luas Red Line is not running between RedCow and Blackhorse. Too late for the early edition of the Herald.

Has he posted anything today? Draw your own conclusions.
And anyway, I am a feeder.

5rtytry56 · 12-03-2015 12:13pm

galljga1 wrote: »

O.K. maybe it was not a joke.

And anyway, I am a feeder.

and you're proud of it.
Whatever floats your boat ....

Victor · 12-03-2015 7:27pm

syklops wrote: »

To avoid my blocklist

galljga1 wrote: »

Tomorrow's headline in the Herald:

Ulysses1874 pushed in front of tram.

Only joking.....Really.

Disruptive comments like this are not welcome.

Moderator

12-03-2015 9:01pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Would you care to give evidence that the Red Line is pro rata no worse than anything else? It seems to be your assertion.

Pro rata no worse than what? The Green Line? The 14A? The Dart between Raheny and Howth Junction?

You've already produced evidence to support my argument, not counter it. My contention is that some things happen on the Red Line that we'd all prefer didn't happen, but that some people make outlandish and untenable claims about how bad that is and what that means for "the state of Dublin" and/or "the state of Ireland". You produced some statistics which I think you meant to contradict me - but they didn't. So I asked you some questions about the numbers and what they implied, but you didn't answer those.

Things could be better with the Red Line, but let's face it we could say that about a lot of things in life. A good story always beats boring facts hands down, and so some people like to over-dramatise. To a considerable extent that's what has gone on in this thread and in previous discussions about the Red Line.

Thanks again for offering the numbers; they are a useful aid to the discussion (or could be, I suppose).

Eugene Norman · 12-03-2015 9:21pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Pro rata no worse than what? The Green Line? The 14A? The Dart between Raheny and Howth Junction?

You've already produced evidence to support my argument, not counter it. My contention is that some things happen on the Red Line that we'd all prefer didn't happen, but that some people make outlandish and untenable claims about how bad that is and what that means for "the state of Dublin" and/or "the state of Ireland". You produced some statistics which I think you meant to contradict me - but they didn't. So I asked you some questions about the numbers and what they implied, but you didn't answer those.

Things could be better with the Red Line, but let's face it we could say that about a lot of things in life. A good story always beats boring facts hands down, and so some people like to over-dramatise. To a considerable extent that's what has gone on in this thread and in previous discussions about the Red Line.

Thanks again for offering the numbers; they are a useful aid to the discussion (or could be, I suppose).

The figures probably hide most of the incidents. After all who is going to report minor level abuse. Or a guy shouting his head off.

I use the red line only Connolly to heuston and its clearly has a dangerous vibe unlike the dart.

A quick search of your history and you are what anybody would suspect - a southsider. That means you pay a premium in rent or mortgage to stay away from the working classes, northsiders or westsiders. Most of the people on the red line are working class, the people harassing the workers are lumpens. You don't really care for the working classes so you side with the lumpens. The clas hatred here is all yours.

n97 mini · 12-03-2015 9:54pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You've already produced evidence to support my argument, not counter it.

There is an implication in the thread title that the Red Line is somehow worse than the rest, to which you made your princess and the pea comments, but then to leap to

Deleted User wrote: »

some people make outlandish and untenable claims about how bad that is and what that means for "the state of Dublin" and/or "the state of Ireland".

looks like you're trying tyo create a straw man argument, if you will.

Deleted User wrote: »

Thanks again for offering the numbers; they are a useful aid to the discussion (or could be, I suppose).

If you look up the Green Line figures you'll see the Red Line is considerably worse. Princesses and peas excepted, of course.

13-03-2015 1:50am

n97 mini wrote: »

looks like you're trying tyo create a straw man argument, if you will.

Everything I said was lifted from other posts on this thread. I didn't make any logical leaps from the occasional bit of of anti-social behaviour to some perceived collapse in law and order. Other people did, on this thread, and I pointed to what they had posted. Why did I do that? To call it out for the nonsense that it is.

n97 mini wrote: »

If you look up the Green Line figures you'll see the Red Line is considerably worse.

So what? I haven't suggested that the Green Line is "better" or "worse" than the Red. I've simply said that people need to stop suggesting that there's something terribly wrong with Dublin or with Ireland for no other reason than that they sometimes see anti-social behaviour on the Luas.

Victor · 13-03-2015 8:18am

Eugene Norman wrote: »

A quick search of your history and you are what anybody would suspect - a southsider. That means you pay a premium in rent or mortgage to stay away from the working classes, northsiders or westsiders. Most of the people on the red line are working class, the people harassing the workers are lumpens. You don't really care for the working classes so you side with the lumpens. The clas hatred here is all yours.

Do not personalise posts.

Moderator

LuckyLloyd · 13-03-2015 2:12pm

As someone who used Public Transport from Tallaght to and from the City Center two times a day for many years I find the preciousness on this thread hilarious.

Kermit.de.frog · 13-03-2015 7:30pm

It's not preciousness, it's embarrassment and disbelief at the north side of the center our capital city in particular. The two are different.

Half the problem could be solved straight away by getting rid of the drug clinics to some abandoned or run down industrial estate outside the center.

It is ridiculous that we have a situation where Leinster's heroin addicts on a daily basis are converging in the city center.

The other half requires a serious shake up in policing and a new transport police.

syklops · 14-03-2015 2:46am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It's not preciousness, it's embarrassment and disbelief at the north side of the center our capital city in particular. The two are different.

Theres definitely an element of embarassment to it.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It is ridiculous that we have a situation where Leinster's heroin addicts on a daily basis are converging in the city center.
.

This. Abbey street is so important in our nations history, and it would be something to be proud of to see it being served by the best public transport system the nation has to offer. so it comes as a double whammy of disappointment and embarassment that it is used daily for open drug dealing and many people don;t feel safe walking down it sometimes even in broad daylight.

I don't mean to sound heartless but if someone is undergoing methadone treatment and they get a travel pass then they should be able to get a bus to some where more remote. Lets face it, they are not doing anything else with their time. Its a bit annoying they get to use aforementioned best transport for free

AlekSmart · 17-03-2015 10:17pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Everything I said was lifted from other posts on this thread. I didn't make any logical leaps from the occasional bit of of anti-social behaviour to some perceived collapse in law and order. Other people did, on this thread, and I pointed to what they had posted. Why did I do that? To call it out for the nonsense that it is.

So what? I haven't suggested that the Green Line is "better" or "worse" than the Red. I've simply said that people need to stop suggesting that there's something terribly wrong with Dublin or with Ireland for no other reason than that they sometimes see anti-social behaviour on the Luas.

Not suggesting that there's anything at all "wrong" with the Red Line at all,however it seems (yet another) bit of "occasional anti-social behaviour" has forced the closure of a complete Luas Halt (Tallaght)...most likely the service truncated to Belgard ?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/luas-stop-closes-temporarily-on-red-line-following-directions-from-gardai-31075078.html

Mind you,I'm confident that posters will soon fill the thread with similar occurences on the Green Line.....Tramlink...Prague Trams....Berlin Trams...and all those other systems which are remarkably similar to the oul Red Line ....:)

I was down there approx 90 minutes ago watching crowds of happy exicted chizzlers and their mot's scampering around the the platform and jumping in and out of the parked Luas....the little scamps...;)

I'd suggest more than a few had been trun ouwa de Square,and were feeling aggrieved at the cheek of the Security Staff there....

Lau2976 · 17-03-2015 10:46pm

The red line is the luas I would use primarily and tbh for me it's been atrocious. I've been robbed on it and when the Garda approached the luas for the tape they could only supply the suspect running off the luas and nothing else as the camara was down. :rolleyes:

But in fairness you could be robbed anywhere, or on any mode of transport. The toerags have provided some hilarious moments (like a guy climbing into a suitcase to avoid a ticket inspector!). I would be if the additude that if your not working to change it in some way then moaning isn't going to help. So all though it's been terrible Nd I avoided it for nearly a year what can I do? I don't drive and don't like getting taxis so it's the luas or the bus and sometimes - not all the time- the luas wins out on convenience.

Kermit.de.frog · 17-03-2015 10:48pm

Tallaght stop closed, two men assaulted and hospitalised, no arrests.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/tallaght-luas-red-line-stop-closed-after-two-males-assaulted-1.2143224

syklops · 18-03-2015 10:57am

Lau2976 wrote: »

I would be if the additude that if your not working to change it in some way then moaning isn't going to help.

What do you suggest?

Luas Red Line security issues mega thread (read mod warming in post #1)

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