Luas Red Line security issues mega thread (read mod warming in post #1)

LXFlyer

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So then the nature of it has to change. It needs to be segregated.

What disappoints me a lot is that the red line gives the lie to those that said Dublin is a modern european city compatible with hop on/hop off tram systems - this is clearly not the case.

The red line is only the start. Wait till the luas cross city line is running. It's going to get worse but the powers that be don't seem to care.

The Luas imo was a mistake for a city that has not evolved to that level. It's as simple as that.

Give us a break with the scaremongering about the Green line extension.


The people that are causing trouble on the red line are making exactly the same trips that they always did on the buses - the old 51b/51c, 77, 78a or 79 by and large. In general they're not going to places that they didn't before. They just switched from the buses to the trams.


There is nothing like the same level of anti-social behaviour on the bus routes that serve Phibsborough and Cabra as there was on the bus routes listed above, which tends to suggest that this view is nothing more than scaremongering.

How Strange

One of the big problems for the red line in the city centre is that all the addicts travel from all over the country to Dublin for methadone treatment and they're concentrated ins very small area. The luas is so easy to get on without a ticket and the security guards have very little power to eject someone causing anti social behaviour or who doesn't have a ticket if they don't leave the tram willingly. I've seen some of them goad the guards in the hope they'll place a hand on them and then it's assault. I saw one woman and her 9 year old try to claim a guard man handled her daughter. The daughter was in on the trick too but they eventually left the tram.

I use the 79 every so often and logistically there's no way those causing anti social behaviour on the bus transferred to the luas. They are two completely different routes. Also the anti social behaviour on 79/a is rarely as bad as the luas and in 10 years I've never been aware of any service curtailments because of anti social bahaviour. The worst you come across for the most part is people smoking cigarettes upstairs.

Kermit.de.frog

lxflyer wrote: »

Give us a break with the scaremongering about the Green line extension.


The people that are causing trouble on the red line are making exactly the same trips that they always did on the buses - the old 51b/51c, 77, 78a or 79 by and large. In general they're not going to places that they didn't before. They just switched from the buses to the trams.


There is nothing like the same level of anti-social behaviour on the bus routes that serve Phibsborough and Cabra as there was on the bus routes listed above, which tends to suggest that this view is nothing more than scaremongering.

I maintain Dublin has not evolved to having open transport systems like the Luas. We don't have a proper police force and we don't have proper planning. No argument otherwise will change this fact.

The red line is the biggest mistake ever made in the city. It is a disaster for public safety, it's a disaster for drug abuse and it a disaster for tourism. The question is what is going to be done about it? - NOTHING. Because no one cares.

magentis

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I maintain Dublin has not evolved to having open transport systems like the Luas. We don't have a proper police force and we don't have proper planning. No argument otherwise will change this fact.

The red line is the biggest mistake ever made in the city. It is a disaster for public safety, it's a disaster for drug abuse and it a disaster for tourism. The question is what is going to be done about it? - NOTHING. Because no one cares.

I lived in citywest up to 8 months ago.
Its really not as bad as you are making out.

monument

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The red line is the biggest mistake ever made in the city. It is a disaster for public safety, it's a disaster for drug abuse and it a disaster for tourism. The question is what is going to be done about it? - NOTHING. Because no one cares.

Yet based on passanger numbers per km, the red line could well be the most successful public transport route in the country.

The city centre section take alone is hands down the most successfully by passanger numbers per km.

ohnonotgmail

monument wrote: »

Yet based on passanger numbers per km, the red line could well be the most successful public transport route in the country.

The city centre section take alone is hands down the most successfully by passanger numbers per km.

how about per PAYING passenger numbers?

stehyl15

As ive said on a previous thread i commonly see security personal wasted on the green line particularly at balally why are they on the green when theres far more trouble on the red makes no sense

Aard

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The red line is the biggest mistake ever made in the city. It is a disaster for public safety, it's a disaster for drug abuse and it a disaster for tourism. The question is what is going to be done about it? - NOTHING. Because no one cares.

The thousands of people living along the Red line would disagree with you. Many would say that in fact it is the best thing ever to have happened in the city. Disaster for tourism? You having a laugh? The Red line brings tourists between the major rail/bus termini of the country, allowing tourists to travel cheaply (i.e. sans taxi) to get around the rest of the country. The Zoo and the Royal Hospital would beg to differ. The Convention Centre and functions in the Gibson could be seen as a form of tourism. The entire north inner city is now a viable tourist destination due largely to the ease of movement facilitated by the Red line.

Your reasoning is clouded by subjectivity.

Kermit.de.frog

Aard wrote: »

The Red line brings tourists between the major rail/bus termini of the country

What a beautiful image and introduction to Dublin. Junkies, scumbags, feral youth...amongst the normal people going about their business of course. Suffice to say the proportion of abnormal and intimidatory to normal seems very acute on the red line compared to what you would see in other european cities on a link between main termini.

You can not the defend it. It's a simple disregard for ordinary people, a lack of proper policing (and justice system for that matter) and a delinquent planning system that has the red line the way it is.


I want to ask you one question - do you think it is acceptable to have an open line like this go past courts where some individuals getting on this tram have more than 100 convictions for example? Do you not see the potential implications there? Now that has less to do with the luas and more to do with the justice system but I say again this line was planned to go from some of Dublin's most disadvantaged and prone to anti social behaviour areas by the courts and in to meth clinic central.

Do you not see why this is a problem? Never mind more security and all that - do you not think that this was a silly and disasterous route to proceed with? What we see now was always coming. And the cross city line will make it worse. You might not believe me yet just as if you would have disregarded my concerns about the red line prior to opening but you will come around soon enough once it is open!

Aard

You and I clearly have had very different experiences of the Red Line. How many times a week do you use it?

OldNotWIse

monument wrote: »

Yet based on passanger numbers per km, the red line could well be the most successful public transport route in the country.

The city centre section take alone is hands down the most successfully by passanger numbers per km.

If everyone paid maybe....

Aard

Passenger numbers are higher on the red line, but journey distances are higher on the green line. This results in passenger-kms being about equal over both lines.

Banjoxed

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I maintain Dublin has not evolved to having open transport systems like the Luas. We don't have a proper police force and we don't have proper planning. No argument otherwise will change this fact.

The red line is the biggest mistake ever made in the city. It is a disaster for public safety, it's a disaster for drug abuse and it a disaster for tourism. The question is what is going to be done about it? - NOTHING. Because no one cares.

Isn't it odd that for the thirty years prior to the Luas Red Line bus route curtailments in and around Tallaght were commonplace, in fact so common that it was rarely if ever commented on. It does not seem to have occurred to Official Ireland that actually tackling anti social behaviour and its causes, poverty, machismo culture and drug and alcohol abuse was worth doing at all.

Kermit de Frog's view, that investing in the transport infrastructure was a mistake and that "nice" people shouldn't have to see the Indians off their Reservation, won't solve a damn thing. It is however remarkably revealing of much of our administrative masters' hand washing of any responsibility to our wider society.

Anti social behaviour has causes and has effects. Any solution needs to tackle both. This means that solicitors making excuses for blackguarding behaviour leading to the Probation act has to stop, and replaced with restorative justice; and adequate prison sentencing where this proves ineffective. The causes - drug abuse, alcoholism and crime must be tackled at root and provide meaningful education and training to everyone to give all our young people access to work according to their ability, and access to the trades and professions is vital.

We also need effective and visible policing in all our public spaces to deter and stop anti social behaviour in its tracks.

None of this will be cheap, and certainly won't appeal to those who don't want the Indians out of the Reservation. However, we have attempted to run a modern state on the cheap in so many ways. To suggest abandoning public infrastructure is risible but not surprising knowing the laissez-faire mentality of many here. Not wanting to solve the real problem is grossly negligent.

monument

Undertook a few Luas trips in the last week -- including between the main train stations and a trip out to the Red Cow area. No anti-social behavior to note.

Glad to have had the red line, the options before it got those trips were unreliable and less frequent.

anncoates

Have traveled the red line on a regular and extensive basis (as in nearly the entire route) and to say it's a mistake is a bit hysterical. It's a great service but does have anti social issues that need to be addressed. Not anti social issues to the extent of it being as dangerous as people are claiming or a disaster, but issues nonetheless.

stehyl15

Just heard there tonight that two security men were stabbed on the green line at Milltown whilst trying to break up a fight between a gang of youths but on the green line really

punisher5112

stehyl15 wrote: »

Just heard there tonight that two security men were stabbed on the green line at Milltown whilst trying to break up a fight between a gang of youths but on the green line really

Has to be fake there is no security on the green line.

But them security guys are paid way too much.

n97 mini

punisher5112 wrote: »

But them security guys are paid way too much.

But you said on the other thread workers should unite etc

stehyl15

punisher5112 wrote: »

Has to be fake there is no security on the green line.

No ive seen quite a bit of security around balally on weekend particulary around balally i personally think its a waste of resources but sure veoila are paying for them

MJohnston

Banjoxed really said it all best imo, I don't really think theres much up for debate in that. One can only hope that this sorry incident can be used to actually effect some real change that can bring about a transport police with real power - it's clear that anyone causing trouble knows exactly the limits of STT's powers, and are willing to abuse that. Short of all that, I dunno....Batman?

punisher5112

n97 mini wrote: »

But you said on the other thread workers should unite etc

You didn't cop I was been sarcastic right......


They are not paid enough.

stehyl15

punisher5112 wrote: »

They are not paid enough.

I wonder do they have much job security get the pun but seriously i do agree with on that one maybe not on the db but for quite a dangerous job they should probably be paid a decent bit better

KCAccidental

Time to install pay barriers on luas stops outside the city centre, perhaps?

Aard

Barriers? To what end?

foggy_lad

KCAccidental wrote: »

Time to install pay barriers on luas stops outside the city centre, perhaps?

http://i.imgur.com/Qel2KkJl.jpg

How would those work when the troublemakers just get on at the next stop or just jump the barriers? The issue is not that they are there, it is that nothing is ever done to stop them! they don't get punished for their many many criminal and anti-social actions so have no incentive to improve themselves.

stehyl15

KCAccidental wrote: »

Time to install pay barriers on luas stops outside the city centre, perhaps?

Might be a problem at some of the city centre stop which have public access

MJohnston

stehyl15 wrote: »

Might be a problem at some of the city centre stop which have public access

It would be potentially impossible at Jervis at the very least

KCAccidental

I said outside the city centre, it wouldn't be feasible for jervis, smithfield or abbey street. You could get away with not having them in zone 1 for instance.


In favour, it creates a well lit and safe sterile space that can be easily monitored by CCTV. If you link the luas doors to doors at the stop it would be impossible for someone to skip the barriers via the tracks. When the free travel pass is eventually converted to smartcard it will be easier for disabled customers to tag on etc. Some of the stops on the green line like Ranelagh and Balally could easily install barriers as they are away from surface pedestrian level.

for me, it would be perfect for the quieter outlying stations in tallaght and citywest, which can attract an element of anti-social behaviour. I know what I would prefer in broombridge!

The downside, the cost of building and maintaining the stops. Although that might be offset by the savings you'd make not creating a transport police, which is the only other viable option at this point.

Aard

Transport systems worldwide are moving towards barrier-free access.

MJohnston

KCAccidental wrote: »

I said outside the city centre, it wouldn't be feasible for jervis, smithfield or abbey street. You could get away with not having them in zone 1 for instance.

That would make it completely pointless imo, but regardless, it'd be a fairly ineffectual approach anyway - if certain groups aren't afraid of intimidating people, or actually attacking people, they're not going to be afraid of fare evasion or hopping barriers. That's before you consider the many transit systems around the world with barriers and plenty of ASB