Nintendo Switch (Nintendo's next console)

ERG89

Myrddin wrote: »

That doesn't make sense...a PS4 isn't going to play games any worse whether or not a VR headset is connected to it. It's kind of the other way around, games look better outside of VR, when compared to a traditional screen. The experience will differ from those playing on VR and those playing on a tv...that's to be expected, they're wildly different experiences. Each has its own distinct advantages though, but I can't see anything being neutered just to make it VR compatible...it's the hardware that makes the difference, not so much the software.

I'm thinking the new PS4. The extra power is required to make it run VR that apparently don't run great on the current models. I think I'd rather that power go towards the games themselves rather than a peripheral. If it has to run on VR I imagine it won't max out power as the headsets take a lot of power to run from what I'm aware.
I think a lot of devs are going to moan about the cost of making games for two systems the original & jazzed up 4K then you add VR it's a nightmare for costs. I think this gen had been very dull with little innovation like there was with new IP's last gen. So absolutely bored of remasters.
I think VR can take off but is not going to mean anything until the next run of consoles. It needs to grow first the tech to improve again & the cost is killer at €800-1,000 probably is a generous estimate for console set ups. It needs one or two games that are undeniably only VR can do this. They need to 100% sort out motion sickness issues too.
But I do think Nintendo can actually make the best VR titles if the big 3 went all in. Metroid Prime or something quirky like a Warioware has bags of potential.
So hard to demo & get the message across as well. I only ever used a VR headset once in college (an oculus rift dev kit I think) but I haven't seen in store set ups yet

Corholio

From the sounds of that report, if at all true, is that Nintendo may just be adjusting the NX in case of future VR support. Not necessarily straight out of the box or anything like that. Technology is only as good as it's price and if VR remains high then a lot of companies will be taking the softly softly approach.

Myrddin

ERG89 wrote: »

I think I'd rather that power go towards the games themselves rather than a peripheral. If it has to run on VR I imagine it won't max out power as the headsets take a lot of power to run from what I'm aware.

That's not what's happening though, the extra power is going towards the games. yes significant power is needed to make vr work, but all that goes into hardware. A game isn't going to look any different for someone who has no vr, just because it might support vr...

As for the cost, yes it's pricey, but what new tech isn't? Many probably spend twice as much on the latest phone than they will on a psvr

CiDeRmAn

It would be a big mistake to take a title in development and exclude everyone without a headset, in fact I would guess that any AAA game that requires one, on console at least, will be subsidised by the hardware manufacturers.
So, you want to play Elite Dangerous on the PS4?
No problem, it's out in the next 12 months, and is supposed to be amazing via VR, but it's just as good on a 50" tv.

MilesMorales1

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

So the whole Oculus/PSVR/Vive thing has passed you by?
If Nintendo somehow can pull it off, producing a console that gives effective and original VR for a competitive price with some original content as only Nintendo can, it could be bigger than Jebus....

It could be. But then, PS4K is being made, supposedly with VR in mind cos the original console doesn't handle it well. So its a big ask. Plus, 400, 500 quid is pretty expensive for something still experimental.

smokingman

One simple reason why I won't be getting into vr...
How the hell do I find my rum if I can't see out of it?!

Pffffft

CiDeRmAn

MilesMorales1 wrote: »

It could be. But then, PS4K is being made, supposedly with VR in mind cos the original console doesn't handle it well. So its a big ask. Plus, 400, 500 quid is pretty expensive for something still experimental.

But that's just it, it's not experimental.
With the bigger players getting involved it is really now a hardware implementation and engineering matter, you've got the best gaming minds around looking for the next big hook, conscious that the motion control fad was just that, and 400/500 is a massive ask, in addition to the console/pc, but, like early hardware, the likes of Sony are sure to start bundling, to keep the cost down and then recoup through software sales and eventual hardware improvements to further bring manufacture costs down.

If, and it's a big if, the NX is indeed having some sort of VR functionality built in or at least available as an option, then it is bound to be kept as affordable as they can, but keep in mind that, as far as the hardware is concerned, no on has more experience in rendering games in actual 3D than Nintendo, with their consistently excellent content on the 3DS.
And with Nintendo's idiosyncratic approach to games, you can be sure that they will, if the VR rumour turns out to be true, be capable of something more than mere enhanced first person titles, from a Donkey Kong Country Returns sequel with a swooping viewpoint, Mario Kart 9 as you duck beneath bridges and who knows what else.

Star Lord

Myrddin wrote: »

That's not what's happening though, the extra power is going towards the games. yes significant power is needed to make vr work, but all that goes into hardware. A game isn't going to look any different for someone who has no vr, just because it might support vr...

I think the point being made is all those extra CPU/GPU cycles that'd be wasted running the VR (outputting to two screens... wait, why does that sound familiar

*cough3dsWiiUcough*

) rather than just dedicating it to running the games as smoothly as possible etc...

If the games play just as well on a normal screen, then what's the point with the VR? The games have to be built around it for it to be worthwhile. And with regard to the Vive, for example, you do need a fairly killer setup just to have it running smoothly, and you need a LOT of free, clear space. It's not the kind of sit-in-your-chair-and-play kind of experience, it's the move around kind. And that's simply not practical for most people, yet not having that detracts from the VR experience.

Star Lord

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

And with Nintendo's idiosyncratic approach to games, you can be sure that they will, if the VR rumour turns out to be true, be capable of something more than mere enhanced first person titles, from a Donkey Kong Country Returns sequel with a swooping viewpoint, Mario Kart 9 as you duck beneath bridges and who knows what else.

That's one of the key problems for me too, what use is VR if it's not a first-person thing? And Metroid is the only Nintendo game (to date) that I'd really want to play in first person.

Anything other than first person, and it's not VR, it's just ridiculously expensive 3D glasses.

Myrddin

Star Lord wrote: »

I think the point being made is all those extra CPU/GPU cycles that'd be wasted running the VR (outputting to two screens... wait, why does that sound familiar

*cough3dsWiiUcough*

) rather than just dedicating it to running the games as smoothly as possible etc...

That is what they're doing though...all the extra power in the PS4K will be used to increase the framerate, textures, and visual fidelity of the games that'll run on it. It just so happens that you can plug a VR headset into it...but the point above is exactly what they're planning to do. I really don't get the argument that VR is somehow going to mean games won't look as good as they could without it...it doesn't work that way. Grunt is needed to run it alright, but when the vr headset isn't plugged in all that extra grunt doesn't just disappear, the PS4K is ramping up PS4 game visual fidelity while it's at it. It's like saying there's no point getting a PS4K if you're not getting the PSVR...it's simply wrong to assume that, because the new hardware is being put to use either way.

If the games play just as well on a normal screen, then what's the point with the VR? The games have to be built around it for it to be worthwhile.

Half Life 2 in VR says that's not true dude The games play just as well as they always have done when they're on a tv/monitor, & they'll look fantastic. Stick on a vr headset though, and you're no longer just looking at the game, you're in the game. Getting off the train when arriving in City 17 (Half Life 2) in VR is something I'll never forget, I was speechless to see it....you're actually there like, you're right there in the city. As I said when this NX rumour came out, and I know it sounds patronising, but you really do have to experience it to 'get it'. It's so much more than just a 3D effect, it brings you right into the game world that I can't say anything other than my jaw was on the floor playing the DK1 (and by now, the DK1 is pretty crap in comparison to the retail units). It completely and utterly tricks your mind and senses into believing what you're seeing is real.

And with regard to the Vive, for example, you do need a fairly killer setup just to have it running smoothly, and you need a LOT of free, clear space. It's not the kind of sit-in-your-chair-and-play kind of experience, it's the move around kind. And that's simply not practical for most people, yet not having that detracts from the VR experience.

Which is why the Vive isn't for me, as I simply don't have the space nor the cash. PSVR though, is ticking all the boxes for me, it's like the Rift in that regard, they're better suited to a traditional sit down setup. I think PSVR does have tracking capability though if needed.

Star Lord wrote: »

That's one of the key problems for me too, what use is VR if it's not a first-person thing? And Metroid is the only Nintendo game (to date) that I'd really want to play in first person.

Anything other than first person, and it's not VR, it's just ridiculously expensive 3D glasses.

It definitely won't be limited to 1st person. They will likely do all kinds of serious 3d trickery, for non fps games. Behind the shoulder stuff, Mario Kart type stuff, RTS games, cockpit games, flight games...hell you could do any genre in it really - yes you're getting into the realm of expensive 3d glass when it's stuff like Street Fighter etc, but it's a whole new realm of development, so I expect some serious innovation and outside the box thinking over the next couple of years.

CiDeRmAn

Star Lord wrote: »

That's one of the key problems for me too, what use is VR if it's not a first-person thing? And Metroid is the only Nintendo game (to date) that I'd really want to play in first person.

Anything other than first person, and it's not VR, it's just ridiculously expensive 3D glasses.

I think it will be this question that will show the truth in who can create and who can simply emulate, that is the developers who can make new experiences and those that are limited to merely churning out updates to existing concepts.
And, in this regard, Sony and Nintendo are well placed.
Yes, there are those that have played current gen games and never gotten further than a first person war game, a racing game and a few sports titles, but then there is the rest, who have played Yoshi's Woolly World, Super Mario Maker, Puppeteer or Tearaway, and it's those kinds of developers that we need to see let loose on the respective VR systems, to let them play with it, experiment with it and bring us something that will blow our minds though we can't even conceive of it right now.

How much better would Child of Eden have been in VR?
A film noir type adventure played out on a massive 4:3 virtual movie screen, complete with authentic soundtrack?
Imagine anything, then remember that everyone's imagination is different and that they are thinking of things that you have yet to consider.
Poking at a Mario-carrying minecart from beneath, making it jump over breaks in the track, as you fly through Bowsers dungeons.
Rolling balls of ink soaked yarn and throwing them at Octarians.
Playing Pilotwings, jumping from an aircraft and sky diving to the ground before taking off in a hot air balloon and doing it again.
So many ideas just waiting to be dreamt up and implemented by people with talent.

sligeach

What's your opinion of Nintendo at the moment? Do you think NX can restore the company's fortunes?

"Nintendo in their current state and the way they choose to do business I am definitely not a fan of. It shows a typical corporate Japan mindset with a Galapagos view on the world and an arrogance from past successes that doesn't translate to future success. I cannot go into the details of the NX but it does have good ideas and unfortunately its execution will undoubtedly fall short of consumer expectations. This may be Nintendo's Dreamcast. I see them becoming more of an IP creation company and exiting hardware as large M&A of expertise they are lacking is not in their DNA."

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2016/06/ninterview_preserving_gaming_history_with_arcade_collector_shoutime

Unfortunately I think he may be right. And I agree with his other views about their arrogance.

CiDeRmAn

sligeach wrote: »

What's your opinion of Nintendo at the moment? Do you think NX can restore the company's fortunes?

"Nintendo in their current state and the way they choose to do business I am definitely not a fan of. It shows a typical corporate Japan mindset with a Galapagos view on the world and an arrogance from past successes that doesn't translate to future success. I cannot go into the details of the NX but it does have good ideas and unfortunately its execution will undoubtedly fall short of consumer expectations. This may be Nintendo's Dreamcast. I see them becoming more of an IP creation company and exiting hardware as large M&A of expertise they are lacking is not in their DNA."

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2016/06/ninterview_preserving_gaming_history_with_arcade_collector_shoutime

Unfortunately I think he may be right. And I agree with his other views about their arrogance.

But we have been hearing this kind of thing all along.
It's easy to preach doom and gloom about a console manufacturer who has had a poor reception to their last console.
It's not brave to say "next machine will be a disaster, they have lost touch"
The PS3 was to be a disaster after a terrible launch, awful pricing and dreadful ports, Sony were said to have lost it, forgotten their roots, and it was all over. The 360 was unassailable.
The the PS3 became the best machine of the generation, with the best exclusives.

So, let's not write Nintendo off just yet.
We have no confirmed details about it's power, it's potential.
We have no games seen running on the NX or even a dev kit for that matter, so can't gauge the controller or, well, anything.
We just have rumours, guess work and people trying to get attention by taking a chance on supposition being right, and then they get to look prescient and clever.

So, all of us being fans of the manufacturers hardware and software, let's give Nintendo the benefit of the doubt on this one.
Otherwise we risk looking ghoulish, like most of these posturing doom-sayers.

Nollog

Who's shoutime?

Star Lord

Myrddin wrote: »

That is what they're doing though...all the extra power in the PS4K will be used to increase the framerate, textures, and visual fidelity of the games that'll run on it. It just so happens that you can plug a VR headset into it...but the point above is exactly what they're planning to do. I really don't get the argument that VR is somehow going to mean games won't look as good as they could without it...it doesn't work that way. Grunt is needed to run it alright, but when the vr headset isn't plugged in all that extra grunt doesn't just disappear, the PS4K is ramping up PS4 game visual fidelity while it's at it. It's like saying there's no point getting a PS4K if you're not getting the PSVR...it's simply wrong to assume that, because the new hardware is being put to use either way.

I think you're misinterpreting what I was saying, I'm talking about if they're adding VR to the NX, at this stage, it'd most definitely be using up CPU/GPU cycles (while using the VR) that it probably doesn't have to spare, given the power comparison rumours that we'd been hearing. And I really don't want Nintendo to become an "Us too!" type company by shoehorning it in.

Myrddin wrote: »

Half Life 2 in VR says that's not true dude The games play just as well as they always have done when they're on a tv/monitor, & they'll look fantastic. Stick on a vr headset though, and you're no longer just looking at the game, you're in the game. Getting off the train when arriving in City 17 (Half Life 2) in VR is something I'll never forget, I was speechless to see it....you're actually there like, you're right there in the city. As I said when this NX rumour came out, and I know it sounds patronising, but you really do have to experience it to 'get it'. It's so much more than just a 3D effect, it brings you right into the game world that I can't say anything other than my jaw was on the floor playing the DK1 (and by now, the DK1 is pretty crap in comparison to the retail units). It completely and utterly tricks your mind and senses into believing what you're seeing is real.

That's also kind of my point, Half Life 2 is a first person game, those will always naturally lend themselves to VR, it's the rest of the games that won't.

Myrddin wrote: »

Which is why the Vive isn't for me, as I simply don't have the space nor the cash. PSVR though, is ticking all the boxes for me, it's like the Rift in that regard, they're better suited to a traditional sit down setup. I think PSVR does have tracking capability though if needed.

I think the PSVR can work in both ways alright.

Myrddin wrote: »

It definitely won't be limited to 1st person. They will likely do all kinds of serious 3d trickery, for non fps games. Behind the shoulder stuff, Mario Kart type stuff, RTS games, cockpit games, flight games...hell you could do any genre in it really - yes you're getting into the realm of expensive 3d glass when it's stuff like Street Fighter etc, but it's a whole new realm of development, so I expect some serious innovation and outside the box thinking over the next couple of years.

I can't see it working well for non FPS games though. 3rd person, over the shoulder type games, well where's the point of using a VR headset for that, as it'd remove the immersion of the VR, unless you are playing as an angel/devil on the person's shoulder... the ability to look around your environment using your natural head movements is the main draw of VR headsets. Anything other than first person, and you're essentially a camera, with a somewhat necessary fixed view, because anything else will kind of pull you out of the experience, or be a glorified/overly expensive set of 3D glasses.

Saipanne

sligeach wrote: »

arrogance from past successes.

I won't be buying it because I'm bored of Mario, Zelda, DK, Starfox, Metroid and have been for many, many years. So yeah, I get the above quote.

Myrddin

Star Lord wrote: »

I think you're misinterpreting what I was saying, I'm talking about if they're adding VR to the NX, at this stage, it'd most definitely be using up CPU/GPU cycles (while using the VR) that it probably doesn't have to spare, given the power comparison rumours that we'd been hearing. And I really don't want Nintendo to become an "Us too!" type company by shoehorning it in.

Shoehorning is always bad, so I'd agree there...if the hardware is not designed with VR in mind then it needs to be avoided.

That's also kind of my point, Half Life 2 is a first person game, those will always naturally lend themselves to VR, it's the rest of the games that won't.

Your point here though was that games need to be designed around VR to be of any note. That's just not the case, & HL2 is a prime example of a game designed way before any of this was on the radar, & has translated beautifully to the platform. Yes it's a first person game, that's a core application of vr though...from shooters, to flight games, to racing games, etc. As for the other genres...

I can't see it working well for non FPS games though. 3rd person, over the shoulder type games, well where's the point of using a VR headset for that, as it'd remove the immersion of the VR, unless you are playing as an angel/devil on the person's shoulder... the ability to look around your environment using your natural head movements is the main draw of VR headsets. Anything other than first person, and you're essentially a camera, with a somewhat necessary fixed view, because anything else will kind of pull you out of the experience, or be a glorified/overly expensive set of 3D glasses.

The immersion is still there though, you're still surrounded by the game world...imagine walking through the Kokiri forest in Ocarina of Time...and your head controls the camera (look left is the same as moving the camera to the left). All the fall from the trees is coming down right in front of your eyes, & your brain is telling you that if you reach out then you can catch/touch this stuff. Yes it's not first person, but don't underestimate how powerful the immersion is....it really does bring you into the game, as opposed to just looking at it. No matter the perspective, that effect isn't diminished.

Anyway, I think it's very unlikely for the NX...they've been beaten outta the traps once again, & once again it looks that they'll be playing hardware catch up. If Sony need to design a nearly whole new PS4 to optimise the VR experience, the chances are Nintendo won't have gone that far with the design of the NX. As I said previously, a powerful console, a kick ass controller, a properly solid line up of games, & I'll be more than happy.

CiDeRmAn

The NX needs Destiny 2 and Elder Scrolls 6 as much as F-Zero and Metroid, if not more so.

I think VR is almost certainly a red herring.
It's great to speculate about it but I don't really see it being a major selling point, too many people a happy playing on their 50" TV right now.

Andrew76

Myrddin wrote: »

As I said previously, a powerful console, a kick ass controller, a properly solid line up of games, & I'll be more than happy.

I would love if they released an updated version of the GC controller - literally use the same mould and material - it was the perfect size and weight. The button size and placement was perfect, the triggers felt spot on. I know it would need amending for current needs - wireless and a proper second stick at least. If you haven't used it you've missed out imo - Metroid Prime was something glorious indeed using it.

But, back to reality, it sounds like the NX controller will be some updated version of the Wii-U gamepad but having the ability to play NX games on the go while retaining touchscreen capability for Nintendo's mobile push. The lack of information is so frustrating. :pac:

CiDeRmAn

I'm still hoping for a standard controller as, well, standard.
They can off load the second screen gubbins to the N3DS and/or it's replacement.

Nollog

Saipanne wrote: »

sligeach wrote: »

arrogance from past successes.

I won't be buying it because I'm bored of Mario, Zelda, DK, Starfox, Metroid and have been for many, many years. So yeah, I get the above quote.

mario and more so starfox i get, but the others are usually quite different to the last.

_Redzer_

Just make GameCube 2... Jesus

CiDeRmAn

_Redzer_ wrote: »

Just make GameCube 2... Jesus

They did, it was called the Wii.... Buddha

sligeach

Ubisoft: We believe NX will recapture the Wii audience

Ubisoft is confident that the Nintendo NX will recapture the lost Wii audience, Ubisoft has told MCV.

The Wii was one of the most successful games consoles in history, with over 101m consoles sold. By comparison its successor, Wii U, has been a failure, shifting just shy of 13m units.

Ubisoft is the first Western third-party publisher to pledge support to the NX by announcing a Just Dance title for the platform. The announcement was made on stage during Ubisoft’s E3 press conference and EMEA boss Alain Corre told MCV that the firm is working closely with Nintendo on the project.

“We have always appreciated the relationship with Nintendo, the co-creation and the fact that they are really concentrating on quality - they have fantastic brands,” he told MCV at Ubisoft's E3 booth in Los Angeles.

“And they are addressing the family market in a very different way, their own way, which we appreciate. We have done a lot of products and successes with Nintendo in the past, and we believe that the NX will recapture a lot the lapsed Wii players. So we will see when they release it, but we are confident.”

Nintendo is showing The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wind at E3, but the game on display is the Wii U version, and not the NX edition which is set to launch at the same time.

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/ubisoft-we-believe-nx-will-recapture-the-wii-audience/0168585

Myrddin

I really don't like the sound of that ("recapturing the lose Wii audience"), I hope they mean specifically the numbers, & not the people who were sold on the wii because of the gimmicky controller method...

Banjo

Well, if nothing else, ask yourself how a Just Dance game is going to work on a system that doesn't have Wiimotes.

Choose your gimic! Will it be a ball on a stick? An room-flooding IR gun and camera? Nintendo-branded MoCap suits? The honour system where you rate your own dancing and other players can cut off your little finger if you're dishonest? (It's a japanese console with japanese rules!)

My money is on the continuing undeath of the wiimote.

Myrddin

Banjo wrote: »

My money is on the continuing undeath of the wiimote.

I give up if it is

Gimmicky wiimote = 100 million sales
Traditional type tablet controller = 10 million sales

Not looking good is it...

Andrew76

Banjo wrote: »

Well, if nothing else, ask yourself how a Just Dance game is going to work on a system that doesn't have Wiimotes.

Choose your gimic! Will it be a ball on a stick? An room-flooding IR gun and camera? Nintendo-branded MoCap suits? The honour system where you rate your own dancing and other players can cut off your little finger if you're dishonest? (It's a japanese console with japanese rules!)

My money is on the continuing undeath of the wiimote.

I was wondering about the same thing - I have no idea how the Just Dance games work but hopefully all the gubbins come with the game itself for the NX version.

Banjo

Oh yeah, I forget how few of us are 11 year old girls.

Basically, for Just Dance, it's like guitar hero in that you have to perform certain actions in time to the music, but it just uses 1 Wiimote (and the mic on your gamepad if you want to sing along!) - You watch a series of 1-4 shadows (I have given up trying to spell silohuette silhouette Silouetteh **** YOU, MYSTERIOUS H!) dancing on screen with a Wiimote in one of their hands. You copy their motions and as long as your wiimote arm approximately follows theirs you get points. The best dances have 4 separate characters so the 4 people in the living room have to follow their own character and end up punching eachother in a bizarre, drunken Wing Chun display. Ghostbusters and Prince Ali (from Aladdin) are great for this.

Regrettably there is no way to hold 2 Wiimotes with 2 more in your socks and the gamepad tucked into your jocks to get full body sensing going. Or a sweet rumble-based reward system. Wait a sec.... Stop reading this paragraph - it's privileged material for my copyrighted "Just Grind" game design.

No Wiimote? No way to track your motions.

MilesMorales1

Banjo wrote: »

Oh yeah, I forget how few of us are 11 year old girls.

Basically, for Just Dance, it's like guitar hero in that you have to perform certain actions in time to the music, but it just uses 1 Wiimote (and the mic on your gamepad if you want to sing along!) - You watch a series of 1-4 shadows (I have given up trying to spell silohuette silhouette Silouetteh **** YOU, MYSTERIOUS H!) dancing on screen with a Wiimote in one of their hands. You copy their motions and as long as your wiimote arm approximately follows theirs you get points. The best dances have 4 separate characters so the 4 people in the living room have to follow their own character and end up punching eachother in a bizarre, drunken Wing Chun display. Ghostbusters and Prince Ali (from Aladdin) are great for this.

Regrettably there is no way to hold 2 Wiimotes with 2 more in your socks and the gamepad tucked into your jocks to get full body sensing going. Or a sweet rumble-based reward system. Wait a sec.... Stop reading this paragraph - it's privileged material for my copyrighted "Just Grind" game design.

No Wiimote? No way to track your motions.

Nintendo kinect incoming!