Prime Time 10th March 2015

Sparks

https://twitter.com/Finianmcgrathtd/status/576357364909142016

Finian McGrath wrote:

Gun lobby really trying to misrepresent my views on guns. Strong regulation and public safety.

Half-cocked

^^^^

Shouldn't that read TD trying to misrepresent the facts?

Heckler

Sparks wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Finianmcgrathtd/status/576357364909142016

How many times does it have to be pointed out to this idiot that we already have strong regulation ??

clawback07

Is it all beginning to get to him ?

extremetaz

here's hoping!

crusier

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Nope his most highest Cheif Poobah in Henry St is staying put for another eight years or so .Its his understudy who is being replaced.[The last lad left under a bit of a cloud and a hurry too it seems?].The new replacement Super is a local and supposedly a good egg,as much as you can belive I guess.

Shure you dont want to be changing them that often either..All the hassle of having to retrain a new one is a bother.:)

Puke! This is the sort of post that convinces me there are some right assholes holding forearms certs and I can understand AGS not wanting to grant them to them

yubabill1

clawback07 wrote: »

Is it all beginning to get to him ?

Says he's not paranoid, by the way (it's just that they're all out to get him).

yubabill1

crusier wrote: »

Puke! This is the sort of post that convinces me there are some right assholes holding forearms certs and I can understand AGS not wanting to grant them to them

Bit of history to that story, Cruiser. I'm sure OP happy to fill you in.

knockon

crusier wrote: »

Puke! This is the sort of post that convinces me there are some right assholes holding forearms certs and I can understand AGS not wanting to grant them to them

Steady on Crusier - no need to be so aggressive. Limerick Division of AGS has a colorful history with Firearms owners. Take a look back at 3 significant posts that took place in the last 3 years especially one of mine. You don't know the full story otherwise.

Grizzly 45

Hi Cruiser
this is the asshole you are referring to...
whats got you so hot and bothrerd that you have to get personal??Do explain your what's upsetting you and ill try and clear it up??

garrettod

crusier wrote: »

Puke! This is the sort of post that convinces me there are some right assholes holding forearms certs and I can understand AGS not wanting to grant them to them

I agree with Crusier 100% on this one.... as I can also understand why AGS does not want to grant forearms certs ....LMAO



Crusier

Sadly, there are assholes walking the face of the earth, with or without access to licenced firearms. Likewise, there are assholes driving cars on the same roads as you, collecting their kids from the same schools as you etc.

The fact that the Gardai carefully vet each licence holder, helps reduce the risk of those assholes getting licenced firearms, but even the Gardai can't get it right all of the time. Even if they did, those assholes may well be some of the people who would go and purchase an illegal firearm....

Just do the rest of us a favour and don't tar us all with the same brush please.

Grizzly 45

Why are we still giving this incorrigible anti gun fool any more publicity oxygen???Seems we are the only people responding to his raving??None of his followers seem intrested...

Sparks

Because his followers are watching. And they're learning about us. As is everyone else watching this.


And if another TD or political party thinks we're unreasonable people who won't get any public sympathy if thrown under a bus by an Irish TD just before an election, that would be a good misunderstanding to clarify for them by example.

Grizzly 45

Ok ...but its like getting the village idiot to do advanced calcalus.

crusier

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Hi Cruiser
this is the asshole you are referring to...
whats got you so hot and bothrerd that you have to get personal??Do explain your what's upsetting you and ill try and clear it up??

I don't know any of the individuals referred to by you but they can be easily identified due to their positions held or previously held. I think the post is slanderous and I wonder would you sign off on the post with your real name and address? I'm by no means anti gun and I have more experience of firearms than most but there is an arrogance by some that will feed right into Mcgraths plans, I'll bugger of now and leave ye alone before I get banned!

yubabill1

Sparks wrote: »

Because his followers are watching. And they're learning about us. As is everyone else watching this.


And if another TD or political party thinks we're unreasonable people who won't get any public sympathy if thrown under a bus by an Irish TD just before an election, that would be a good misunderstanding to clarify for them by example.

Hence this:




Yuba Bill @YubaBill

@Finianmcgrathtd "Gun Lobby" got several msgs of support from your constituents after your grandstanding. Got any tweets of support here?

Nekarsulm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ok ...but its like getting the village idiot to do advanced calcalus.

Yes, but why should the village idiot be allowed quote false figures, equate heavily regulated, law abiding sportsmen & women with murderous drug dealing gang members, compare his constituency with an infamous gang ridden district in California, and use tragic suicide victims as a prop to his political career?

yubabill1

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Yes, but why should the village idiot be allowed quote false figures, equate heavily regulated, law abiding sportsmen & women with murderous drug dealing gang members, compare his constituency with an infamous gang ridden district in California, and use tragic suicide victims as a prop to his political career?

From the responses we got from non-shooters, I would say that joe Public can see right through Finian.

He is way, way OTT.

And I don't remember hearing an outcry about safety/gun rampages or drug gangs tooling up with stolen firearms to kill children on Joe Duffy the day after PT........

The man is a kite-flying fool, trying to make a victim of himself for the ICABS sympathy vote in the GE.

john the revelator

The post which read "the man is a kite flying fool" was right on the money.
People like F McGrath are dangerous because they are ignorant and have no regard for the truth.
Fortunately he has no chance of being re-elected, but he has already caused harm ..... pity the lawyer was so ineffective on Prime Time ... he should not have allowed himself to be shouted down by McGrath.
A debate on Prime Time is no place for good manners or gentlemanly behaviour .... you need to go for the jugular.
I'm sure this has been covered already, but why was Des Crofton not on the programe?

B412

There is no one out there Objecting to the Gardai veting potential licence holders, it's how they do it, there is one particular CS and he has stated openly he has no knowledge when it comes to firearms, but relies on experts from Dublin.The same experts that gave misleading information in a number of appeals , this CS does not want firearms in his Division, and doesn't care if you have to take an appeal,it's not costing him one cent ,he still gets paid regardless remember they don't like loosening so they will keep changing the rules ,

Grizzly 45

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Yes, but why should the village idiot be allowed quote false figures, equate heavily regulated, law abiding sportsmen & women with murderous drug dealing gang members, compare his constituency with an infamous gang ridden district in California, and use tragic suicide victims as a prop to his political career?

Because he is the village idiot. ..So would you expect any sort of rational thought or consideration for an oposing POV ? As well as using arguments or more like emotive rants to justify your position is a idiot arguments tactic.

BattleCorp

Whatever we think of Finian, we aren't doing our cause any good by calling him an idiot and a fool on the Internet.

We'll get far more respect from neutrals if we drop the name calling.

Keep at him by all means, but keep it civil.

Grizzly 45

crusier wrote: »

I don't know any of the individuals referred to by you but they can be easily identified due to their positions held or previously held. I think the post is slanderous and I wonder would you sign off on the post with your real name and address? I'm by no means anti gun and I have more experience of firearms than most but there is an arrogance by some that will feed right into Mcgraths plans, I'll bugger of now and leave ye alone before I get banned!

Okay well you know this is a grand little country for finding out things about people
.Since your last message I have been informed about WHY he left !<snip> seeing that you don't know the individuals involved what dog do you have in this fight? I do know and have skin in this as do most of the people who went to the DC in Limerick and we are being nice and actually showing mercy in this case about his departure <snip>

Gosh!!! Are people still use ing that kiddy argument of put your name and own address behind your posts to prove you stand by them? The AGS know who I am,as does anyone else here who wants to find out. In case you forgot ...We are discussing firearms ownership here and some modicum of security is still needed and anyone who thinks that's cowardice really hasn't thought their own security through either have they?No point in making it too easy now for criminals is it?They read here too you know?

BTW if you know so much about firearms....not weapons here ....you would know that Brevick never used an M4...It was a ruger mini 14 with added bits Just by looking at thee pics of the gun?

Missing you already darling!

Sparks

Mod note: Deep breath please folks, and remember rule number one from the charter and that this is not a private forum

Heckler

BattleCorp wrote: »

Whatever we think of Finian, we aren't doing our cause any good by calling him an idiot and a fool on the Internet.

We'll get far more respect from neutrals if we drop the name calling.

Keep at him by all means, but keep it civil.

You have a good point but did we gain any respect from the neutrals when we were lumped in with gangland murderers and rampage killers ala Brevik ?

I agree civility is the way to go but F.McGrath needs to be questioned everyday about his misrepresentation of the stats until he gives an answer.

Either he knew the correct stats and lied or he didn't know them. If he didn't know them he has no place on the committee and no place on national TV spouting inaccurate data. If he deliberately lied......Either way it seems to me he's incompetent.

Grizzly 45

B412 wrote: »

The same experts that gave misleading information in a number of appeals , this CS does not want firearms in his Division, and doesn't care if you have to take an appeal,it's not costing him one cent ,he still gets paid regardless remember they don't like loosening so they will keep changing the rules ,

It actually costs them now if they loose!District court rules 2014 signed into law in Feb of that year.You as an appelant are entitled to seek costs now.Limerick lost six cases in Oct 2014[two of them to me]at about 5 thousand euros a pop. 30 grand of tax payers money into our solicitors pockets because they would not back down....THIS is the core of the entire universeal arguement here.Lose in Oct 2014,new ban proposals in Nov2014.....Coincidence???Dont think so.

Grizzly 45

Heckler wrote: »

You have a good point but did we gain any respect from the neutrals when we were lumped in with gangland murderers and rampage killers ala Brevik ?

I agree civility is the way to go but F.McGrath needs to be questioned everyday about his misrepresentation of the stats until he gives an answer.

Either he knew the correct stats and lied or he didn't know them. If he didn't know them he has no place on the committee and no place on national TV spouting inaccurate data. If he deliberately lied......Either way it seems to me he's incompetent.

considering what he and his pals refer to us in the ICABS and hunt sab circuts.....As well as some dispraging comment made by Mc Grath about deer hunters someplace awhile ago.We are being the paragons of politeness.

From ICABS website.Finians stance of field sports,so his anti gun stances arent surprising..

Finian McGrath, TD (Independent, Dublin North Central):
"Finian McGrath saved the day for the stags of north Dublin and Meath this week by voting with the Government on the hunting ban." Irish Independent, July 3rd 2010.

"Finian McGrath and Maureen O'Sullivan have told the Herald that they are determined to see stag hunting ended. Both say that blood sports are entirely wrong and should be stamped out as soon as possible..."I would be totally against blood sports," [Finian] said. "I have major concern around the chasing of stags. There have been a couple of serious incidents. In one incident a stag was chased into a schoolyard. It was appalling, disgraceful." Evening Herald, June 29 2010.

"I support the plan to end doping and rigging of greyhound races. I demand standards in the industry to root out doping and sleaze. Although it is an important social and family event, the downside of it is coursing, on which we need a debate." During a Dail debate on the Greyhound Industry (Doping Regulation) Bill 2006, 8th June 2006.

"You have my total support in relation to blood sports. I am definitely opposed to them". November, 2003

On 27th March 2013, Finian McGrath supported amendments to the Animal Health and Welfare Bill which sought to outlaw hare coursing, foxhunting, terrierwork, digging-out, ferreting and fur farming.

yubabill1

Personally, I've decided to call closed season on Finian.

He's just dying for one of us to overstep the mark and run to the red tops with blood dripping from his wounds.

Not taking any more bait, we've done a good enough job exposing him for the joker he is.

Nekarsulm

Anyone get a response from RTE Complaints? Email or otherwise?

Sparks

Just acknowledgement of receipt, nothing else yet.

garrettod

Hi,

Thought I would save others here the trouble.

Taken from RTE's Complaints Proceedures:

RTÉ is committed to responding to all reasonable complaints concerning programme content or advertising which are not considered to be of a frivolous or vexatious nature. It is RTÉ's policy that all complaints should receive meaningful replies which attempt to address issues raised in complaints. All complaints received in writing or by-email shall be replied to by an appropriate member of the production team within 20 working days.

So, for anyone who put a complaint in on Wednesday 11th March 2015, it looks like no later than 8th April 2015 for a response (assuming Monday to Friday are working days, excluding St. Patrick's Day).

Putting aside the question of who decides if a complaint is "reasonable" or not, lets assume that the complaints submitted are deemed "reasonable" and responses are not satisfactory. Then the follow on if your not happy with the response from RTE is:

Complaining to the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland

Full details on how to submit a complaint to the B.A.I. can be found here

.

Nekarsulm

Received a letter from RTE today, in response to my letter to the Director General.
As well as the usual bit of text outlining the complaint procedure, and lifted from the website, it states that my letter has been forwarded to the Complains Office.
A reply will issue before 10thApril.

Grizzly 45

Hopefully we'll get a better response,[although I somehow doubt it!] than what I,Sparks and four other lads from the entire shooting community in 2008 got to our complaints both from RTE and BCA.
Can almost sense them mixing the lime ,blue ball and water in Donnybrook already.:rolleyes:

garrettod

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Hopefully we'll get a better response...

My guess is that RTE are going to delay the responses as best they can, to try and cool the issue down a bit, then try to bluff their way out of it with some form of nonsense response.

It will be extremely important that everyone who has submitted a complaint to RTE, follow up with an equally strong complaint to the Broadcasting Authority, assuming an unsatisfactory response from RTE is received.

... needless to say, while it may not have quite the same impact, it's still not too late to submit an initial complaint to RTE, if anyone feels the need (hint hint, nudge nudge boys and girls )

knockon

I contacted the BAI after the broadcast....but as you say you must wait for a response or the time period to pass before making a complaint to them...its all on www.bai.ie

Dear Mr. Knockon,

I acknowledge receipt of your email dated 11th March.

I note that you sent your email to the broadcaster in the first instance. The broadcaster should respond within the 20 working days. Please allow this period for a response. If you are not satisfied with the response from the broadcaster and/or the broadcaster does not respond to your complaint within that timeframe, you may then refer your complaint to the BAI. You should do so no later than 14 days following this period.



If you decide to refer the complaint to the BAI, it is necessary to complete the attached complaint form in full, stating clearly the name of the programme/advertisement, the time and date of broadcast and the relevant section/s of the Codes you consider have been infringed. It is not sufficient to simply tick the various boxes; the sections of the Act/Code must be stated on the form by the complainant. In addition, we will require you to submit to us copies of all correspondence between you and the broadcaster together with your full address. Your contact details must be supplied and are only used for the BAI’s internal purposes. They will not be disclosed to the broadcaster. Should your complaint come within the remit of the BAI we will then process it through our system.



You may also wish to visit our website here where you will find further details of the complaints process.

I trust this information is of assistance to you and please contact us at this email address complaints@bai.ie should you have any further queries.

Yours sincerely,

Jean Crampton


Broadcasting Authority of Ireland – Údarás Craolacháin na hÉireann
2-5 Warrington Place, Dublin 2, Ireland
T: + 353 (0)1 644 1200
F: + 353 (0)1 644 1299
E: complaints@bai.ie
W: www.bai.ie

garrettod

Hi Knockon,

Thanks for posting that information, I've a strange feeling we'll all be making good use of it in a few weeks time....

OzCam

knockon wrote: »

It is not sufficient to simply tick the various boxes; the sections of the Act/Code must be stated on the form by the complainant.

Excuse me for being picky, but my (ex-)programmer brain has raised an interrupt. That second part is ambiguous.

Do they mean you must a) cite the relevant section/clause/paragraph numbers, or b) you must quote the clause in full?

That seems like a requirement designed to discourage complaints by making the process unnecessarily difficult. The BAI are paid to know the Acts & Codes, an ordinary complainant shouldn't have to.

knockon

OzCam wrote: »

Excuse me for being picky, but my (ex-)programmer brain has raised an interrupt. That second part is ambiguous.

Do they mean you must a) cite the relevant section/clause/paragraph numbers, or b) you must quote the clause in full?

That seems like a requirement designed to discourage complaints by making the process unnecessarily difficult. The BAI are paid to know the Acts & Codes, an ordinary complainant shouldn't have to.

They emailed me a 5 page form to be filled out. They actually supply all the sections under the act. They just want the complainant to specify which part. This is page 3...

Section 2 – Details of your complaint

Complaints are considered by the BAI under Section 48(1) of the Broadcasting Act 2009 under the following categories:

48(1)(a) Objectivity & impartiality in news
48(1)(a) Fairness, objectivity & impartiality in current affairs
48(1)(b) Harm & offence
48(1)(b) Law & order
48(1)(c) Privacy of an individual
48(1)(d) Broadcasting Codes (including advertising, sponsorship, teleshopping and product placement).
Details of complaint
Details must be completed in full
Programme Title / Broadcast Item
Programme date: dd/mm/yr
Time of broadcast (if applicable)
Broadcaster

Is the complaint an infringement of: Category & Section of Code applying
48(1)(a) Objectivity & Impartiality in News: Code of Fairness, Objectivity and Impartiality in News and Current Affairs: here
(you must state the relevant section/s of this Code)


48(1)(a) Fairness, Objectivity & Impartiality in Current Affairs: Code of Fairness, Objectivity and Impartiality in News and Current Affairs: here (you must state the relevant section/s of this Code)

48(1)(b) Harm & Offence: Code of Programme Standards – here state sections


se
48(1)(b) Law & Order
48(1)(c) Privacy of an Individual: this relates only to your privacy
48(1)(d) Commercial Communications, including advertising and other commercial messages: General and Children’s Commercial Communications Codes. here


If you have selected a category that is also linked to a broadcasting code, you must identify which section of the Code applies. Please use the links above to access the Codes. Failure to provide the details above may mean that the BAI is unable to process your complaint.

You then have hyperlinks on this form bringing you to a Document called "Code of Fairness, Objectivity & Impartiality
in News and Current Affairs" - This is where you pick out the section of the code they have breached. Its fairly clear to follow

Sparks

Remember that that's the guidelines for the BAI complaint which is a little more formal than the one to the RTE complaints department; the complaint to RTE can refer slightly less specifically to the program. I just referred to the Prime Time report on March 11 in my complaint to RTE, I didn't specify time or broadcaster, and I specified that it involved violations of sections 39(1)(a) and 39(1)(b), but I didn't list these in each specific complaint. For the BAI complaint, if it's necessary, each specific complaint will have to cite which section is violated and all the details have to be explicit.

Going by submission dates, we have until April 10/11 (depending on whether or not you count Good Friday as a workday) to get a response from RTE, and 14 days after that to submit complaints to the BAI.

Sparks

24 March 2015

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
465. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality her views on a matter (details supplied) regarding gun control; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [11419/15]

Frances Fitzgerald (Minister, Department of Justice and Equality; Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)

I understand the Deputy is referring to a recent Prime Time programme which had a report on firearms licensing. The Deputy will appreciate that I have no role in adjudicating on whether broadcasting codes or rules have been broken.
However, I am advised that under the Broadcasting Act 2009, viewers and listeners can complain about broadcasting content which they believe is not in keeping with broadcasting codes and rules. In line with the complaint process, the viewer or listener should direct their complaint to the broadcaster in the first instance with regard to the broadcaster's Code of Practice for Handling Complaints, a document which each broadcaster has available on its website. If a viewer or listener is not satisfied with the response from the broadcaster or if the broadcaster does not respond within the timeframe provided for in their Code of Practice (usually 21 days), then the viewer or listener can refer the complaint to the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland for consideration.

Nekarsulm

I got a letter from the BAI today, I response to a letter of complaint I submitted about prime time. A copy of my original letter was included, plus the full complaint forms necessary should I be less than satisfied with the response from the Broadcaster.

garrettod

garrettod wrote: »

Hi,

Thought I would save others here the trouble.

Taken from RTE's Complaints Proceedures:



So, for anyone who put a complaint in on Wednesday 11th March 2015, it looks like no later than 8th April 2015 for a response (assuming Monday to Friday are working days, excluding St. Patrick's Day).

Putting aside the question of who decides if a complaint is "reasonable" or not, lets assume that the complaints submitted are deemed "reasonable" and responses are not satisfactory. Then the follow on if your not happy with the response from RTE is:

Complaining to the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland

Full details on how to submit a complaint to the B.A.I. can be found here

.

Sorry everyone, having put a reminder for this in my diary, I've now realised that I didn't count Good Friday / Easter Sunday (Monday) as two days off, so response is actually due back today or Monday (if you submitted your complaint on the 12th March).

Out of interest, has anyone heard back as yet ?

Personally, I have not heard anything although that doesn't surprise me.

It's looking very much like B.A.I. here we come..... which might actually be better, as despite being a bit of a pain having to lodge a further complaint, it will reflect even more poorly on RTE that the B.A.I. are now having to get involved. Needless to say, it will be extremely important that everyone who previously submitted a complaint to RTE, now follows up with the B.A.I. to help ensure we maximise the impact.

Sparks

Nope, heard nothing back. Complaint to the BAI being prepared.

Nekarsulm

Nothing yet, our post comes at about 3 pm, so shall wait and see.

knockon

Nothing either.

Grizzly 45

Nothing here either.

Sparks

Well past the close of business on the 20th working day now, so complaint referral form filled in and sent off with a copy of the original complaint to the BAI.

Now the BAI sends that on to RTE again, RTE gets another 21 working days to give a reply, then there's 14 days after that's received for the complainant to raise any issues they have with the response, and if there are any, it goes to the BAI complaints forum.

These wheels grind sllooooooowllllyyy....

On the other hand, RTE can't just ignore the BAI at this stage and have to give some sort of explanation of themselves.

Nekarsulm

Anyone have a copy of the programme on dvd or memory stick?

Sparks

It's up on the RTE website.

Nekarsulm

Thanks Sparks, for some reason I thought it was gone.