Prime Time 10th March 2015

garrettod

Hi,

Thought I would save others here the trouble.

Taken from RTE's Complaints Proceedures:

RTÉ is committed to responding to all reasonable complaints concerning programme content or advertising which are not considered to be of a frivolous or vexatious nature. It is RTÉ's policy that all complaints should receive meaningful replies which attempt to address issues raised in complaints. All complaints received in writing or by-email shall be replied to by an appropriate member of the production team within 20 working days.

So, for anyone who put a complaint in on Wednesday 11th March 2015, it looks like no later than 8th April 2015 for a response (assuming Monday to Friday are working days, excluding St. Patrick's Day).

Putting aside the question of who decides if a complaint is "reasonable" or not, lets assume that the complaints submitted are deemed "reasonable" and responses are not satisfactory. Then the follow on if your not happy with the response from RTE is:

Complaining to the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland

Full details on how to submit a complaint to the B.A.I. can be found here

.

Nekarsulm

Received a letter from RTE today, in response to my letter to the Director General.
As well as the usual bit of text outlining the complaint procedure, and lifted from the website, it states that my letter has been forwarded to the Complains Office.
A reply will issue before 10thApril.

Grizzly 45

Hopefully we'll get a better response,[although I somehow doubt it!] than what I,Sparks and four other lads from the entire shooting community in 2008 got to our complaints both from RTE and BCA.
Can almost sense them mixing the lime ,blue ball and water in Donnybrook already.:rolleyes:

garrettod

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Hopefully we'll get a better response...

My guess is that RTE are going to delay the responses as best they can, to try and cool the issue down a bit, then try to bluff their way out of it with some form of nonsense response.

It will be extremely important that everyone who has submitted a complaint to RTE, follow up with an equally strong complaint to the Broadcasting Authority, assuming an unsatisfactory response from RTE is received.

... needless to say, while it may not have quite the same impact, it's still not too late to submit an initial complaint to RTE, if anyone feels the need (hint hint, nudge nudge boys and girls )

knockon

I contacted the BAI after the broadcast....but as you say you must wait for a response or the time period to pass before making a complaint to them...its all on www.bai.ie

Dear Mr. Knockon,

I acknowledge receipt of your email dated 11th March.

I note that you sent your email to the broadcaster in the first instance. The broadcaster should respond within the 20 working days. Please allow this period for a response. If you are not satisfied with the response from the broadcaster and/or the broadcaster does not respond to your complaint within that timeframe, you may then refer your complaint to the BAI. You should do so no later than 14 days following this period.



If you decide to refer the complaint to the BAI, it is necessary to complete the attached complaint form in full, stating clearly the name of the programme/advertisement, the time and date of broadcast and the relevant section/s of the Codes you consider have been infringed. It is not sufficient to simply tick the various boxes; the sections of the Act/Code must be stated on the form by the complainant. In addition, we will require you to submit to us copies of all correspondence between you and the broadcaster together with your full address. Your contact details must be supplied and are only used for the BAI’s internal purposes. They will not be disclosed to the broadcaster. Should your complaint come within the remit of the BAI we will then process it through our system.



You may also wish to visit our website here where you will find further details of the complaints process.

I trust this information is of assistance to you and please contact us at this email address complaints@bai.ie should you have any further queries.

Yours sincerely,

Jean Crampton


Broadcasting Authority of Ireland – Údarás Craolacháin na hÉireann
2-5 Warrington Place, Dublin 2, Ireland
T: + 353 (0)1 644 1200
F: + 353 (0)1 644 1299
E: complaints@bai.ie
W: www.bai.ie

garrettod

Hi Knockon,

Thanks for posting that information, I've a strange feeling we'll all be making good use of it in a few weeks time....

OzCam

knockon wrote: »

It is not sufficient to simply tick the various boxes; the sections of the Act/Code must be stated on the form by the complainant.

Excuse me for being picky, but my (ex-)programmer brain has raised an interrupt. That second part is ambiguous.

Do they mean you must a) cite the relevant section/clause/paragraph numbers, or b) you must quote the clause in full?

That seems like a requirement designed to discourage complaints by making the process unnecessarily difficult. The BAI are paid to know the Acts & Codes, an ordinary complainant shouldn't have to.

knockon

OzCam wrote: »

Excuse me for being picky, but my (ex-)programmer brain has raised an interrupt. That second part is ambiguous.

Do they mean you must a) cite the relevant section/clause/paragraph numbers, or b) you must quote the clause in full?

That seems like a requirement designed to discourage complaints by making the process unnecessarily difficult. The BAI are paid to know the Acts & Codes, an ordinary complainant shouldn't have to.

They emailed me a 5 page form to be filled out. They actually supply all the sections under the act. They just want the complainant to specify which part. This is page 3...

Section 2 – Details of your complaint

Complaints are considered by the BAI under Section 48(1) of the Broadcasting Act 2009 under the following categories:

48(1)(a) Objectivity & impartiality in news
48(1)(a) Fairness, objectivity & impartiality in current affairs
48(1)(b) Harm & offence
48(1)(b) Law & order
48(1)(c) Privacy of an individual
48(1)(d) Broadcasting Codes (including advertising, sponsorship, teleshopping and product placement).
Details of complaint
Details must be completed in full
Programme Title / Broadcast Item
Programme date: dd/mm/yr
Time of broadcast (if applicable)
Broadcaster

Is the complaint an infringement of: Category & Section of Code applying
48(1)(a) Objectivity & Impartiality in News: Code of Fairness, Objectivity and Impartiality in News and Current Affairs: here
(you must state the relevant section/s of this Code)


48(1)(a) Fairness, Objectivity & Impartiality in Current Affairs: Code of Fairness, Objectivity and Impartiality in News and Current Affairs: here (you must state the relevant section/s of this Code)

48(1)(b) Harm & Offence: Code of Programme Standards – here state sections


se
48(1)(b) Law & Order
48(1)(c) Privacy of an Individual: this relates only to your privacy
48(1)(d) Commercial Communications, including advertising and other commercial messages: General and Children’s Commercial Communications Codes. here


If you have selected a category that is also linked to a broadcasting code, you must identify which section of the Code applies. Please use the links above to access the Codes. Failure to provide the details above may mean that the BAI is unable to process your complaint.

You then have hyperlinks on this form bringing you to a Document called "Code of Fairness, Objectivity & Impartiality
in News and Current Affairs" - This is where you pick out the section of the code they have breached. Its fairly clear to follow

Sparks

Remember that that's the guidelines for the BAI complaint which is a little more formal than the one to the RTE complaints department; the complaint to RTE can refer slightly less specifically to the program. I just referred to the Prime Time report on March 11 in my complaint to RTE, I didn't specify time or broadcaster, and I specified that it involved violations of sections 39(1)(a) and 39(1)(b), but I didn't list these in each specific complaint. For the BAI complaint, if it's necessary, each specific complaint will have to cite which section is violated and all the details have to be explicit.

Going by submission dates, we have until April 10/11 (depending on whether or not you count Good Friday as a workday) to get a response from RTE, and 14 days after that to submit complaints to the BAI.

Sparks

24 March 2015

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
465. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality her views on a matter (details supplied) regarding gun control; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [11419/15]

Frances Fitzgerald (Minister, Department of Justice and Equality; Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)

I understand the Deputy is referring to a recent Prime Time programme which had a report on firearms licensing. The Deputy will appreciate that I have no role in adjudicating on whether broadcasting codes or rules have been broken.
However, I am advised that under the Broadcasting Act 2009, viewers and listeners can complain about broadcasting content which they believe is not in keeping with broadcasting codes and rules. In line with the complaint process, the viewer or listener should direct their complaint to the broadcaster in the first instance with regard to the broadcaster's Code of Practice for Handling Complaints, a document which each broadcaster has available on its website. If a viewer or listener is not satisfied with the response from the broadcaster or if the broadcaster does not respond within the timeframe provided for in their Code of Practice (usually 21 days), then the viewer or listener can refer the complaint to the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland for consideration.

Nekarsulm

I got a letter from the BAI today, I response to a letter of complaint I submitted about prime time. A copy of my original letter was included, plus the full complaint forms necessary should I be less than satisfied with the response from the Broadcaster.

garrettod

garrettod wrote: »

Hi,

Thought I would save others here the trouble.

Taken from RTE's Complaints Proceedures:



So, for anyone who put a complaint in on Wednesday 11th March 2015, it looks like no later than 8th April 2015 for a response (assuming Monday to Friday are working days, excluding St. Patrick's Day).

Putting aside the question of who decides if a complaint is "reasonable" or not, lets assume that the complaints submitted are deemed "reasonable" and responses are not satisfactory. Then the follow on if your not happy with the response from RTE is:

Complaining to the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland

Full details on how to submit a complaint to the B.A.I. can be found here

.

Sorry everyone, having put a reminder for this in my diary, I've now realised that I didn't count Good Friday / Easter Sunday (Monday) as two days off, so response is actually due back today or Monday (if you submitted your complaint on the 12th March).

Out of interest, has anyone heard back as yet ?

Personally, I have not heard anything although that doesn't surprise me.

It's looking very much like B.A.I. here we come..... which might actually be better, as despite being a bit of a pain having to lodge a further complaint, it will reflect even more poorly on RTE that the B.A.I. are now having to get involved. Needless to say, it will be extremely important that everyone who previously submitted a complaint to RTE, now follows up with the B.A.I. to help ensure we maximise the impact.

Sparks

Nope, heard nothing back. Complaint to the BAI being prepared.

Nekarsulm

Nothing yet, our post comes at about 3 pm, so shall wait and see.

knockon

Nothing either.

Grizzly 45

Nothing here either.

Sparks

Well past the close of business on the 20th working day now, so complaint referral form filled in and sent off with a copy of the original complaint to the BAI.

Now the BAI sends that on to RTE again, RTE gets another 21 working days to give a reply, then there's 14 days after that's received for the complainant to raise any issues they have with the response, and if there are any, it goes to the BAI complaints forum.

These wheels grind sllooooooowllllyyy....

On the other hand, RTE can't just ignore the BAI at this stage and have to give some sort of explanation of themselves.

Nekarsulm

Anyone have a copy of the programme on dvd or memory stick?

Sparks

It's up on the RTE website.

Nekarsulm

Thanks Sparks, for some reason I thought it was gone.

Grizzly 45

Anyone got a draft letter for this?

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Anyone got a draft letter for this?

No such animal it seems, the procedure's different from the last time I did this (but then again that was to the BCC not the BAI). You fill out the BAI Complaint Referral Form sections 1 and 2 and email it back to complaints@bai.ie along with a copy of the complaint you sent to complaints@rte.ie. I thought you'd have to rewrite it; turns out no, you just send them the original.

yubabill1

GOING TO BAI - Just received this:

"Dear Mr Yuba Bill,



Thank you for your email regarding our programme on March 10th 2015 and the item we broadcast regarding proposed new gun laws.



The report in question examined proposals from the Department of Justice and Equality / An Garda Síochána Working Group on Review of Firearms Licensing, in particular the proposals to ban most handguns and semi-automatic rifles and shotguns which are capable of holding more than three rounds.



In your complaint you allege that our report portrayed licensed firearm holders “as potential rampage murderers”. I must reject that allegation. Our report examined the issues surrounding gun ownership in Ireland and the concerns of Gardai about the current licensing regime. Gardai are on the record (at a hearing of the Oireachtas Justice Committee on December 17th 2014) as stating that they feel stronger regulation and prohibition of certain firearms is required to prevent massacres such as Hungerford in 1987 and Norway in 2011, where the culprits used their legally held firearms. At the committee Gardai stated that firearms designed for use for military and police purposes and currently licensable within the State pose a potentially devastating and lethal risk to the community. This is the context in which the Garda proposals have been put forward, and for our report to examine the proposals it was of course necessary to reflect the Garda view. For us not to have done so would have meant discussing the issue without allowing one side to articulate one of its main arguments. Those who oppose the proposals were of course given a fair opportunity to put forward their case against the new measures being suggested. Your point about the substantial background checks currently required was articulated by Des Crofton, National Director of the National Association of Regional Game Councils, who stated “People who hold firearm certificates in this country go through a very rigorous vetting which includes not only the character of the applicant, whether they have criminal records, it includes also for example we have to provide details of our medical practitioners, give access to the Gardai to contact them just in case there’s any doubt or any query about mental state”.



As you mentioned our report also pointed out that stolen licensed firearms have been used to kill people, for instance the murders of brothers Kenneth and Paul Corbally were carried out using stolen guns. You claim that this fact is in dispute, however having listened to the link to the radio interview you provided it is clear that this dispute is not in fact about whether or not a legally held firearm was used, but about when and where it was stolen.



In relation to your complaints about the figures used in the report they were all official figures and served to inform the viewer about the current number of firearms licensed in this country. The number of stolen firearms was mentioned by Deputy Finian McGrath during the studio discussion where each side was given fair opportunity to make the arguments they wished. Solicitor William Egan, who was suggested to the programme by Association of Regional Game Councils as a spokesperson, responded to Deputy McGrath by saying “You’re misrepresenting the statistics – the statistics in fact that have been published – there’s a problem – they’re unreliable in essence – at the end of February statistics were published which suggested that 1,710 firearms had been stolen – that in fact was contested by the sporting associations I’m associated with and within ten days the Minister for Justice had qualified those statistics reducing them by 600”.



Having reviewed the item in great detail I am entirely satisfied that it was fair and balanced. Thank you again for your email and I hope you will be satisfied with my response. However, if any member of the public is of the opinion that a programme or segment of a programme broadcast on RTÉ has breached a provision of Section 39(1)(a), (b), (d) or (e) of the Broadcasting Act 2009 or failed to comply with a provision of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland Codes and is not satisfied with RTÉ’s response they are entitled to make a complaint to the BAI.



Best regards,



Paul Ferris,

Deputy Editor

‘Prime Time’"

ORIGINAL COMPLAINT 11/3/15

Sir/ Madam



I was very upset by your report on proposed new firearms legislation last night, which portrayed people like myself – licensed firearm holders – as potential rampage murderers, despite my having undergone substantial background checks, provided character referees, access to my personal medical record and agreed to access to my home at any time by Gardai and also having committed no criminal offences whatsoever.



The programme contained a piece with Superintendent Fergus Healy, who was allowed mention his fear of a gun culture emerging, while demonstrating handguns which can no longer be licensed by new applicants under 2008 legislation. The only handgun in the piece which can be licensed today by a new applicant was the one Superintendent Healy “approved”. This clearly presented a biased impression of gun ownership.



The report also failed to mention the origination of the proposed ban, which came only after a large number of court cases were lost by Gardai regarding firearms licensing following 2009 legislation born out of round table agreement between stakeholders, greatly strengthening applicant suitability and firearms storage regulation.



The report indulged in scaremongering around gun murders – citing a firearm stolen in ROI used in the murder of the Corbally brothers, which is in dispute1 – despite a background of multiple-year falls in gun crime2, gun seizures3 and a 50% reduction in thefts of legal firearms between 2010-2013 according to CSO statistics.



1. http://www.sportscoalition.org/kildare-radio-interview-512015/

2. http://www.thejournal.ie/frances-fitzgerald-garda-commissioner-1522872-Jun2014/

3. http://www.thejournal.ie/firearms-seized-1583874-Jul2014/

Cass

I've seen and heard of a few people getting responses today, and they read as almost identical to your own. Just key points are edited to suit the exact wording of the complaint sent in by the different people.

Basically in all of them they are saying it was fair and unbiased reporting. Didn't expect much more from them tbh, i mean they were hardly going to say "yeah, we done that. So what".

knockon

Just sending one to the BAI and I got this from RTE...

Dear Mr ,

Thank you for your email regarding our programme on March 10th 2015 and the item we broadcast regarding proposed new gun laws.

The report in question examined proposals from the Department of Justice and Equality / An Garda Síochána Working Group on Review of Firearms Licensing, in particular the proposals to ban most handguns and semi-automatic rifles and shotguns which are capable of holding more than three rounds. The report did address the current licensing situation in Ireland. Des Crofton, National Director of the National Association of Regional Game Councils, stated “People who hold firearm certificates in this country go through a very rigorous vetting which includes not only the character of the applicant, whether they have criminal records, it includes also for example we have to provide details of our medical practitioners, give access to the Gardai to contact them just in case there’s any doubt or any query about mental state”.

You allege the programme was “delivered in an absolute biased manner by the reporter and studio anchor”. I reject this allegation. The report set out the arguments made by Gardai in favour of the proposals. Those who oppose the proposals were also given a fair opportunity to put forward their case against the new measures being suggested, with interviews included from representatives of National Association of Regional Game Councils, the National Association of Sporting Rifle and Pistol clubs and the owner of a business which provides clay pigeon shooting as a visitor attraction.

The subsequent studio discussion included Deputy Finian McGrath, a member of the Oireachtas Justice Committee and solicitor William Egan, who was suggested to the programme by Association of Regional Game Councils as a spokesperson. Your complaint suggests that the presenter “did not permit equal time and equal opportunity for both interviewed guests to make their case”. I have closely reviewed the discussion and am satisfied that both men were given fair opportunity to put forward their arguments. In fact they spoke for almost exactly the same amount of time. The presenter challenged both guests on what they were saying and in fact at one stage repeatedly interrupted Deputy McGrath and warned him to let Mr Egan speak.

In your complaint you take issue with the inclusion of relatives of victims of gun crime. The Gardai are on record as saying that one of the reasons they have proposed the stricter firearms laws is because guns have been stolen and used to kill people, for instance (and as stated in the report) the murders of brothers Kenneth and Paul Corbally were carried out using stolen guns. The views of people whose loved ones have been killed by guns (like Christine Campbell) are therefore very relevant to this debate. Gardai have also stated clearly before the Oireachtas Justice Committee that they feel stronger regulation and prohibition of certain firearms is required to prevent massacres such as Hungerford in 1987 and Norway in 2011, where the culprits used their legally held firearms. For this reason we included the interview with Rita Duffy whose brother, James Hughes, was killed by a man using his legally held shotgun. She stated she feels the system as it currently operates is not working. The report clearly stated that there are no proposals to ban the type of firearm used to kill James Hughes. It could in fact be argued that this supports the argument of those who oppose the current proposals, as they would have made no difference in the case of the murder of Mr Hughes.

In relation to the statistics regarding firearms the report included the number of licensed firearms in Ireland and the breakdown of the type of firearms certificates have been issued for. The disputed figures relate to the number of firearms stolen between 2010 and 2014. This was not included in the report but was raised by Deputy McGrath during the studio debate. You claim that critical information about the figures was not delivered in the programme. In fact Mr Egan immediately responded to Deputy McGrath and challenged the figures, saying “You’re misrepresenting the statistics – the statistics in fact that have been published – there’s a problem – they’re unreliable in essence – at the end of February statistics were published which suggested that 1,710 firearms had been stolen – that in fact was contested by the sporting associations I’m associated with and within ten days the Minister for Justice had qualified those statistics reducing them by 600”.

Having reviewed the item in great detail I am satisfied that it was fair and balanced. Thank you again for your email and I hope you will be satisfied with my response. However, if any member of the public is of the opinion that a programme or segment of a programme broadcast on RTÉ has breached a provision of Section 39(1)(a), (b), (d) or (e) of the Broadcasting Act 2009 or failed to comply with a provision of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland Codes and is not satisfied with RTÉ’s response they are entitled to make a complaint to the BAI.

Best regards,

Paul Ferris,
Deputy Editor
‘Prime Time’

Cass

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That is a carbon copy of the few i've seen. Very reminiscent of the replies from the Minister in Dail Questions.

Grizzly 45

Ohhh! This is a surprise!!!! Same Bulls sht from the same people in RTE Primetime in 2008..
BCAI willl WHITEWASH Prime time on this as well...You dont shop out your own in the Canteen Class in Donnybrook..Feckin Deja Vu all over again....:mad:
Wonder wil we ever learn the media is NOT OUR FRIEND WHEN IT COMES TO GUNS! Here or globally.

badaj0z

What did you expect? An apology and an offer to rerun the programme?

tac foley

Quote - 'You allege the programme was blah blah blah....................................I reject this allegation.'

You allege something and they reject your allegation. No matter, it seems, what your allegation was about.

'twas ever thus.

Question - Who owns RTÉ?

Answer - RTÉ is a statutory body, run by a board appointed by the Government of Ireland.

As Badajoz notes, what do you expect?

tac

yubabill1

Cass wrote: »

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That is a carbon copy of the few i've seen. Very reminiscent of the replies from the Minister in Dail Questions.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ohhh! This is a surprise!!!! Same Bulls sht from the same people in RTE Primetime in 2008..
BCAI willl WHITEWASH Prime time on this as well...You dont shop out your own in the Canteen Class in Donnybrook..Feckin Deja Vu all over again....:mad:
Wonder wil we ever learn the media is NOT OUR FRIEND WHEN IT COMES TO GUNS! Here or globally.

badaj0z wrote: »

What did you expect? An apology and an offer to rerun the programme?

tac foley wrote: »

Quote - 'You allege the programme was blah blah blah....................................I reject this allegation.'

You allege something and they reject your allegation. No matter, it seems, what your allegation was about.

'twas ever thus.

Question - Who owns RTÉ?

Answer - RTÉ is a statutory body, run by a board appointed by the Government of Ireland.

As Badajoz notes, what do you expect?

tac

Thinking of changing my name to John Waters c/o Iona Institute.

Will be on to BAI asap - will keep you posted, as usual.