People who hire hookers?

Mister Vain

Ogniochialli wrote: »

Indeed women in my opinion have more depth to their sensuality, that's why they get turned on by watching animals have sex whereas men don't.

Speak for yourself. I love watching giraffes getting it on, with their big long necks.

dark crystal

Mister Vain wrote: »

Speak for yourself. I love watching giraffes getting it on, with their big long necks.

Safari porn. Love it!

Saralee4

dark crystal wrote: »

They what now??

I know I was thinking wtf! !!

ceadaoin.

Ogniochialli wrote: »

For sake of argument Let's assume these guys are bitter, how do you know it wasn't the lack of success with women that caused their bitterness. On what basis are you coming to these sweeping conclusions?

When you jump to conclusions like that you completely overlook the issue being put forward.

The only issue I see is that they have let their lack of success with some women make them bitter and resentful towards all women. That is entirely their own problem and if they want to have any happiness in the future they should work on letting it go.

Plenty of average or even below average men manage to get women without it taking years of effort as some posters have claimed on here. The difference is those men probably don't exude bitterness and dislike in all their interactions with the opposite sex.

Ogniochialli

dark crystal wrote: »

It's been explained countless times now why sexuality has been defined as such. I was quoting you, as you were addressing the sex drive argument in your post.



They what now??

Experiments were done whereby the participants' level of arousal was measured with medical instruments while they watched various images and clips. Women were shown to be aroused by watching clips of animals having sex, they said they weren't aroused by watching animals though. This actually shows why it's best not to put too much stock in what a woman says turns her on, her actions are a more reliable gauge.

Ogniochialli

ceadaoin. wrote: »

The only issue I see is that they have let their lack of success with women make them bitter. That is entirely their own problem and if they want to have any happiness in the future they should work on letting it go.

Plenty of average or even below average men manage to get women without it taking years of effort as some posters have claimed on here. The difference is those men probably don't project bitterness and dislike in all their interactions with the opposite sex.

Of course it's their own problem, no one is owed sex.

lavdad

KomradeBishop wrote: »

It's really odd how this seems to be denied, or how posters sometimes engage in whataboutery to try and discredit the idea - it shouldn't really be all that controversial, but does in the end seem to be.

Like I said before, women reared in our culture often tend to develop a complex where they cling in every possible instance to the notion that men have it easier in life. In reality this is to cover up a deeper issue of inferiority in regards their femininity.

KomradeBishop

lavdad wrote: »

Like I said before, women reared in our culture often tend to develop a complex where they cling in every possible instance to the notion that men have it easier in life. In reality this is to cover up a deeper issue of inferiority in regards their femininity.

I think what I stated can be considered a likely fact on its own, without trying to load it up with speculative ideas like this - which just strike too close to MRA/red-pill type nuttery.

Saralee4

lavdad wrote: »

Like I said before, women reared in our culture often tend to develop a complex where they cling in every possible instance to the notion that men have it easier in life. In reality this is to cover up a deeper issue of inferiority in regards their femininity.

And noone here but yourself has said that . No one said men have it easier. You did say that women have it easier though.

dark crystal

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Plenty of average or even below average men manage to get women without it taking years of effort as some posters have claimed on here. The difference is those men probably don't exude bitterness and dislike in all their interactions with the opposite sex.

Maybe they carry around a goldfish in a little plastic bag to turn their prey on. Women love a sexy fish. Turns 'em on something rotten.

ceadaoin.

Ogniochialli wrote: »

Of course it's their own problem, no one is owed sex.

Well some of them seem to think that merely engaging in conversation with a woman, especially one they deem to be below average in looks, should be enough to make them swoon. If she isn't interested then she is a stuck up b!tch with a princess complex and, by extension, so are all irish women or just women in general. I've seen this attitude on here numerous times.

One eyed Jack

KomradeBishop wrote: »

While, again, I'm loathe to be on the opposing 'side' in this debate, it really doesn't seem to be controversial to say that women in general tend to have a greater ability to achieve both sex and relationships - and that there really is a big gender disparity here (I don't think 'sex drive' comes into it at all though - don't know why focus has shifted to that).

It's really odd how this seems to be denied, or how posters sometimes engage in whataboutery to try and discredit the idea - it shouldn't really be all that controversial, but does in the end seem to be.

It's not that the idea is controversial or anything else though. It's ludicrous, and loaded with considerable confirmation bias, and in fairness now as objective as you're trying to remain -

Can you honestly say the idea is being put across in any sort of reasonable manner that isn't saturated in venomous "feminist agenda, rabble rabble" nonsense.

I know a few women who identify as feminist, but jesus if they actually did go on like that, I wouldn't be long telling them there's a way to get their points across without sounding like a bitter tit.

HardenendMan

Are people actually arguing whether or not Men have higher sex drives than women???? Surely the ratio of female to male prostitutes is 100:1??? That proves that men can't go without it as much as women!

KomradeBishop

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It's not that the idea is controversial or anything else though. It's ludicrous, and loaded with considerable confirmation bias, and in fairness now as objective as you're trying to remain -

Can you honestly say the idea is being put across in any sort of reasonable manner that isn't saturated in venomous "feminist agenda, rabble rabble" nonsense.

I know a few women who identify as feminist, but jesus if they actually did go on like that, I wouldn't be long telling them there's a way to get their points across without sounding like a bitter tit.

^^ I agree that other posters are putting that idea across, in an effort to spout borderline-anti-feminist or MRA/red-pill type views - in a very unreasonable way - but I put that idea across as well (in response to the idea itself being dismissed, not just other posters slant on it being dismissed), and I don't have any ill motives or biases like other posters may, so would appreciate the idea being taken on its own merits/demerits, instead of switching to examining motives.

Granted, I don't have hard stats available to prove it as a point, but really...does it not seem blindingly obvious to people, that sex and relationships are both something that women have a far greater advantage with? (note: nothing to do with sex drives - don't know how people switched it to discussing that)

I'm mainly just interested in (what looks like) the denial and whataboutery that is used in response to that idea - it seems unusual.

dark crystal

HardenendMan wrote: »

Are people actually arguing whether or not Men have higher sex drives than women???? Surely the ratio of female to male prostitutes is 100:1??? That proves that men can't go without it as much as women!

That's a very simplistic way of looking at it. There's fundamental differences as to why men are willing to pay for sex and women aren't, not related to sex drive at all.

Personally speaking, it's very important to me that the man I'm having sex with wants to be there; that he's attracted to me; that he wants me as much as I want him. I can relieve myself quite nicely by myself if I'm feeling frustrated, I don't want to have to pay someone to pretend to fancy me. Where's the turn on in that?

I have no idea if men or women have higher sex drives or not. Generally speaking, men probably do, due to various different factors. It's only relatively recently that women have been allowed to explore their sexuality, that they haven't had to endure virginity until marriage, as was expected of them in the past.
There's still a stigma attached to women who are overtly sexual and women do tend not to want to be seen as too forward or too 'desperate', as society does still view women differently to men when it comes to sex and specifically, how often they partake in it. Women are still called 'sluts' or 'whores' if they are perceived to be too sexually forward - can you think of a parallel derisory name for men who act in the same way that has the same connotations?
Alternatively, look at how women are equally as damned if they don't give it up as readily as they're expected to. Entitled, picky, princess complex etc. It's a no win situation for them in many ways.

There are many different factors to how sexuality is perceived and defined by both genders and that's why it's so frustrating to read comments about women being sexually delusional because they don't see sex in exactly the same way as men do. Some do, some don't. It's a complex issue and not one that can be defined by the extremely narrow constraints some people like to paint it as in this thread.

One eyed Jack

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Granted, I don't have hard stats available to prove it as a point, but really...does it not seem blindingly obvious to people, that sex and relationships are both something that women have a far greater advantage with? (note: nothing to do with sex drives - don't know how people switched it to discussing that)

I'm mainly just interested in (what looks like) the denial and whataboutery that is used in response to that idea - it seems unusual.

Clearly not, because it's simply a massive sweeping generalisation that really has no basis in fact, and secondly, even if I were to leave out my own anecdotal bias, I'm not sure where or how you're seeing this massive advantage manifest itself?

Women turning down guys they don't wish to sleep with? It's not whataboutery to acknowledge that guys too turn down women they don't wish to sleep with.

Women aiming for guys they haven't a snowballs chance in hell with because they can't be arsed to make the effort? No different than guys will do.

Women feeling bitter because they don't get what they want? Bet you can't guess what comes next...

Women carving out a niche market for themselves because traditionally guys could ride round themselves left, right and centre and devil may care the consequences?

Ever since the beginning of time, there have been attempts made so that women could do this too, and it's only in recent times we seem to have cracked it, and women now too, are asserting themselves and expressing their sexuality at a frighteningly fast pace.

That's some scary shìt that takes some adjusting to if you're used to being dominant and having everything your own way, and suddenly what you feel is your right is being eroded away before your very eyes as women are actually becoming more choosy in who they choose to be with, and they're no longer dependent on you to provide for them in return for sex, the only trump card you once held.

Of course that's going to make a minority of men who can't make the adjustment, very bitter at their lot, because now they have nothing to offer a woman. Is that a woman's fault?

Hardly, but I don't expect these men who can't assert their dominance any more will accept that, they'll just go and find a woman they can dominate, instead of making something of themselves that they could offer to a woman who they really want to get with. They'll settle for throwing a few quid at any woman who can offer them the fantasy they wish for instead.

The same also applies to women btw, nowadays moreso than ever, there's a reason Fifty Shades of Shìte was so successful - it sold women a fantasy they could buy into, and many, many women are taking that into the realm of paying to have their fantasies guaranteed to be fulfilled, rather than take any chances with a guy who isn't a sex worker.

They're doing this a long time now, but as socially unacceptable it is for a man to do it, the idea of a woman doing it is almost unfathomable for some people.


I wouldn't have any hard data to present for that idea either, but I'll bet you're already thinking "Where the fcuk does he come up with this stuff?" :pac:


That'll be the denial speaking.

HardenendMan

dark crystal wrote: »

Personally speaking, it's very important to me that the man I'm having sex with wants to be there; that he's attracted to me; that he wants me as much as I want him.

Yeah ok whatever....but...

dark crystal wrote: »

I can relieve myself quite nicely by myself

Oh baby now you're talking :pac: pics? ASL?



PS just kidding.

Mister Vain

dark crystal wrote: »

I don't want to have to pay someone to pretend to fancy me. Where's the turn on in that?

The fantasy maybe. Ever see The Secret Diary Of A Call Girl? It's a bit glamourised granted, but there are some guys who are into role playing. She might dress up as a sexy secretary or a school girl for example. Some fetishes would be more weird, a little too weird for most people, but with the call girl he can live out his wildest fantasies. I'd imagine that would be a big attraction. One man dressed up as a car while she dressed up as a disabled parking space and he was trying to drive it in to her.

dark crystal

HardenendMan wrote: »

Yeah ok whatever....but...



Oh baby now you're talking :pac: pics? ASL?



PS just kidding.

Sorry....if you don't have four legs, I'm just not interested

the evasion_kid

"That's some scary shìt that takes some adjusting to if you're used to being dominant and having everything your own way, and suddenly what you feel is your right is being eroded away before your very eyes as women are actually becoming more choosy in who they choose to be with, and they're no longer dependent on you to provide for them in return for sex, the only trump card you once held.

Of course that's going to make a minority of men who can't make the adjustment, very bitter at their lot, because now they have nothing to offer a woman. Is that a woman's fault?"

And what pray tell do women have to offer men?if its just sex as you state as some kind of bartering tool then surely you have no problem with men paying hookers for sex?

Mister Vain

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You only have to look at the "fed up with being single" thread in this forum to see who posts more, men or women, and you get a general sense of the attitudes too.

I'll leave it up to yourself to draw your own conclusions.

(Hey if other posters can use PI and r/deadbedrooms as examples of "evidence") :rolleyes:

It was recently locked because there was too much flirting going on. It was a light hearted thread for the most part.

dark crystal

Mister Vain wrote: »

The fantasy maybe. Ever see The Secret Diary Of A Call Girl? It's a bit glamourised granted, but there are some guys who are into role playing. She might dress up as a sexy secretary or a school girl for example. Some fetishes would be more weird, a little too weird for most people, but with the call girl he can live out his wildest fantasies. I'd imagine that would be a big attraction. One man dressed up as a car while she dressed up as a disabled parking space and he was trying to drive it in to her.

Nowt as queer as folk as they say

Ah yeah, look, I have no problem in principle with two consenting adults getting up to whatever they like, paid or not. The fantasy thing isn't just confined to men, though - look at the crazy success of 50 shades and the swinging scene etc. Women have fantasies too. I guess they just seek them out in different ways.

lavdad

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Clearly not, because it's simply a massive sweeping generalisation that really has no basis in fact, and secondly, even if I were to leave out my own anecdotal bias, I'm not sure where or how you're seeing this massive advantage manifest itself?

Women turning down guys they don't wish to sleep with? It's not whataboutery to acknowledge that guys too turn down women they don't wish to sleep with.

Women aiming for guys they haven't a snowballs chance in hell with because they can't be arsed to make the effort? No different than guys will do.

Women feeling bitter because they don't get what they want? Bet you can't guess what comes next...

Women carving out a niche market for themselves because traditionally guys could ride round themselves left, right and centre and devil may care the consequences?

Ever since the beginning of time, there have been attempts made so that women could do this too, and it's only in recent times we seem to have cracked it, and women now too, are asserting themselves and expressing their sexuality at a frighteningly fast pace.

That's some scary shìt that takes some adjusting to if you're used to being dominant and having everything your own way, and suddenly what you feel is your right is being eroded away before your very eyes as women are actually becoming more choosy in who they choose to be with, and they're no longer dependent on you to provide for them in return for sex, the only trump card you once held.

Of course that's going to make a minority of men who can't make the adjustment, very bitter at their lot, because now they have nothing to offer a woman. Is that a woman's fault?

Hardly, but I don't expect these men who can't assert their dominance any more will accept that, they'll just go and find a woman they can dominate, instead of making something of themselves that they could offer to a woman who they really want to get with. They'll settle for throwing a few quid at any woman who can offer them the fantasy they wish for instead.

The same also applies to women btw, nowadays moreso than ever, there's a reason Fifty Shades of Shìte was so successful - it sold women a fantasy they could buy into, and many, many women are taking that into the realm of paying to have their fantasies guaranteed to be fulfilled, rather than take any chances with a guy who isn't a sex worker.

They're doing this a long time now, but as socially unacceptable it is for a man to do it, the idea of a woman doing it is almost unfathomable for some people.


I wouldn't have any hard data to present for that idea either, but I'll bet you're already thinking "Where the fcuk does he come up with this stuff?" :pac:


That'll be the denial speaking.

Do you honestly think it's acceptable for women to be total sluts and whore out to a minority of men during their youth, then maybe when they get old and wrinkly settle down with male providers who wouldn't have gotten anything when they were young? That's what women's "sexual liberation" inevitably results in. It's an absolute disgrace.

One eyed Jack

the evasion_kid wrote: »

And what pray tell do women have to offer men?if its just sex as you state as some kind of bartering tool then surely you have no problem with men paying hookers for sex?

Women have as much to offer men, as men have to offer women.

The second is a loaded question and is just you putting words in my mouth. This discussion isn't about the morality of paying sex workers for their services, it's about exploring the motivations as to why someone would actually want to pay for something that is so freely available to them already, and nowadays more so than ever.

dark crystal

lavdad wrote: »

Do you honestly think it's acceptable for women to be total sluts and whore out to a minority of men during their youth, then maybe when they get old and wrinkly settle down with male providers who wouldn't have gotten anything when they were young? That's what women's "sexual liberation" inevitably results in. It's an absolute disgrace.

The way you refer to women is the only disgrace here as far as I can see.

nokia69

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The second is a loaded question and is just you putting words in my mouth. This discussion isn't about the morality of paying sex workers for their services, it's about exploring the motivations as to why someone would actually want to pay for something that is so freely available to them already, and nowadays more so than ever.

but this one of the points that people are trying to make

its not as freely available to men as it is to women

and thats one of the reasons that some men will pay for sex

One eyed Jack

lavdad wrote: »

Do you honestly think it's acceptable for women to be total sluts and whore out to a minority of men during their youth, then maybe when they get old and wrinkly settle down with male providers who wouldn't have gotten anything when they were young? That's what women's "sexual liberation" inevitably results in. It's an absolute disgrace.

It's an absolute disgrace... Joe! :pac:

the evasion_kid

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Women have as much to offer men, as men have to offer women.

The second is a loaded question and is just you putting words in my mouth. This discussion isn't about the morality of paying sex workers for their services, it's about exploring the motivations as to why someone would actually want to pay for something that is so freely available to them already, and nowadays more so than ever.

I'd say the thread title opens this up to all aspects of discussion,my question still stands do you have a problem with men who pay for sex? When you clearly state that women give sex in return for being provided for?

One eyed Jack

nokia69 wrote: »

but this one of the points that people are trying to make

its not as freely available to men as it is to women

and thats one of the reasons that some men will pay for sex

Ok, so I can understand why you might think that it's not as freely available to men as it is women, but then, who are these women having sex with, if not men?

Takes two to tango surely?

Men are paying for sex because they are unwilling to sleep with women who do not meet their standards. How is that any different from women who are unwilling to sleep with men who do not meet their standards?

Would you acknowledge that a double standard exists in society where women are made to feel shame for expressing their sexuality, while men are lauded for expressing their sexuality?

Sex workers exploit this double standard by advertising themselves as the answer to men's sexual fantasies, doing the stuff that "nice girls" just wouldn't do, and "nice guys" are just too afraid to ask for, so they visit sex workers in secrecy, thus maintaining their air of 'respectability'.

One eyed Jack

the evasion_kid wrote: »

I'd say the thread title opens this up to all aspects of discussion,my question still stands do you have a problem with men who pay for sex?

No. There you go, straight answer, not much discussion there.

When you clearly state that women give sex in return for being provided for?

Except that's not what I stated at all. I stated that men no longer had the trump card of providing for a woman in return for sex. There's a fundamental difference in the wording there that you twisted to try and put words in my mouth.