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The Angelus on RTE

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    #272
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,843 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Sebastian Famous Ram wrote: »
    My anecdotes don't need to "work". I know what I see week in week out whether you believe it or not is irrelevant. As I've said before I'm basing it on a far bigger sample than my local church.

    If you want to convince people that the RCC is really rebounding after getting a well-deserved drubbing after this country woke up to its abuses, how about some data?


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    #273
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    It is tiresome when people who want to get rid of something for the sake of freedom or equality can't recognise their own transparent fascist tendencies. Screeching moralists may be unbecoming, but when the screechers believe in nothing it is all the more disheartening.


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    #274
    hynesie08
    Registered Users Posts: 9,693 ✭✭✭hynesie08


    Sebastian Famous Ram wrote: »
    My anecdotes don't need to "work". I know what I see week in week out whether you believe it or not is irrelevant.

    When people say what you believe is irrelevant you consider it a personal attack, bit hypocritical no? Doesn't your religion teach you to turn the other cheek? Or is that another element of it you choose to ignore cause it doesn't suit you?


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    #275
    Eutow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,197 ✭✭✭Eutow


    Sebastian Famous Ram wrote: »
    People should be free to practice their religion of course, however Catholicism is the majority religion so it's natural that it will be far more prominent, promoted and part of people's life's.


    You stated that non Catholic children should find alternative schools to get an education, bit hard when over 90% of schools are owned by the Catholic churches, who then get taxpayer money from everybody. Not very equal is it? People should not be discriminated over religion, it is illegal.
    Sebastian Famous Ram wrote: »
    My anecdotes don't need to "work". I know what I see week in week out whether you believe it or not is irrelevant. As I've said before I'm basing it on a far bigger sample than my local church.

    When living in Ireland, my local church had Saturday night mass, and then five masses every Sunday morning (8, 9, 10, 11, 12) and then an evening mass. This doesn't happen anymore, I think there are only two masses on the Sunday nowadays. So, this could only mean there are less people going to mass.

    To make it a bit clearer, when there were all those masses previously on the Sunday, say 480 people in total went to those six masses, or on average 80 for each mass. Now that is reduced to two masses on Sunday due to declining numbers, now only 220 people go to mass, or on average 110 people per mass. Looking at the latter figures it would appear more people are going to mass, but that is only because the numbers are not spread out like in the former. The only way to be sure is to look at the TOTAL number that went to mass that day/week.


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    #276
    daveyeh
    Registered Users Posts: 774 ✭✭✭daveyeh


    It should be replaced.

    Slowly fading in & out pictures of Bono with a gospel choir singing 'Gloria' in the background.


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    #277
    TwoShedsJackson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,438 ✭✭✭TwoShedsJackson


    Sebastian Famous Ram wrote: »
    My anecdotes don't need to "work". I know what I see week in week out whether you believe it or not is irrelevant. As I've said before I'm basing it on a far bigger sample than my local church.

    Facts! Proof! Who needs them? nox is the physicist who can't be bothered with the scientific method or any of that other anti-Catholic mumbo-jumbo.


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    #278
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    daveyeh wrote: »
    Slowly fading in & out pictures of Bono with a gospel choir singing 'Gloria' in the background.

    How about some Rachmaninov!? :)



    Always puts a smile on the day!


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    #279
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    Eutow wrote: »
    You stated that non Catholic children should find alternative schools to get an education, bit hard when over 90% of schools are owned by the Catholic churches, who then get taxpayer money from everybody. Not very equal is it? People should not be discriminated over religion, it is illegal.

    Im pretty sure he claimed that all schools should be Catholic as it is the one true religion which all children should be brought into so at least allowing alternative schools is an improvement from Jihadi Nox.
    catallus wrote: »
    It is tiresome when people who want to get rid of something for the sake of freedom or equality can't recognise their own transparent fascist tendencies. Screeching moralists may be unbecoming, but when the screechers believe in nothing it is all the more disheartening.

    Indeed, as often seen in the US people cry freedom of religion but what they actually mean is freedom for their religion while everyone else can **** off. The idea of being treated as equals to everyone else is persecution to them.


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    #280
    Hans Bricks
    Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭Hans Bricks


    I honestly think people are getting way too emotionally charged over this. The Angelus isn't preventing your kid from moving up the list in an RC primary school or to promote the ugly sided legacy of Catholicism. It's something I'm sure most of us posting here grew up listening to during the evenings, I genuinely see it as more cultural and nostalgic more than anything. We can have our secular state and retain a few things I imagine. Doesn't have to be so black & white.

    That said, it's disgraceful about some poster's kids being hindered during the selection process in schools.


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    #281
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    Im pretty sure he claimed that all schools should be Catholic

    I never claimed anything of the sort. I probably said something along the lines that catholic schools should be for Catholics first, just as it is in the UK for instance (although over there if you aren't catholic and can't prove you go to mass etc you aren't even considered for entry). I have no problem with other religions setting up schools or educate together schools being setup but converting over Catholic schools to something else would not be an option imo.


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    #282
    Eutow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,197 ✭✭✭Eutow


    Hans Bricks wrote: »
    I honestly think people are getting way too emotionally charged over this. The Angelus isn't preventing your kid from moving up the list in an RC primary school or to promote the ugly sided legacy of Catholicism. It's something I'm sure most of us posting here grew up listening to during the evenings, I genuinely see it as more cultural and nostalgic more than anything. We can have our secular state and retain a few things I imagine. Doesn't have to be so black & white.

    That said, it's disgraceful about some poster's kids being hindered during the selection process in schools.


    It's the mentality of certain people that is the problem. The Catholic influence on everything such as schools, law and order, healthcare, the Dail, the court system. Certain people claiming that the angelus on RTE is not significant, but if removed those same people would be screaming, so not unsignificant then.


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    #283
    Hans Bricks
    Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭Hans Bricks


    Eutow wrote: »
    It's the mentality of certain people that is the problem. The Catholic influence on everything such as schools, law and order, healthcare, the Dail, the court system. Certain people claiming that the angelus on RTE is not significant, but if removed those same people would be screaming, so not unsignificant then.

    All of which I agree needs to be addressed and rectified, but the Angelus is the least of those problems on scale.


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    #284
    daveyeh
    Registered Users Posts: 774 ✭✭✭daveyeh


    Replace it with this...



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    #285
    Zen65
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭Zen65


    Sebastian Famous Ram wrote: »
    I have no problem with other religions setting up schools or educate together schools being setup but converting over Catholic schools to something else would not be an option imo.

    That is nonsensical. The number of school places is determined by the number of students. If a new school is set up it needs to be funded by the state in exactly the same way as any other school, and since the % shift of school attendees will tend to be from the majority (Catholic) schools to these new non-denominational or non-Catholic schools then the Catholic schools would have to lose funding proportionately and hence close down.

    TL;DR? - Once you set up alternate schools then Catholic schools (or at least, classes) have to be eliminated.

    Multiculturalism. It's a heck-of-a-wonderful thing to embrace, and signals a brave new tomorrow for Ireland.


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    #286
    Hans Bricks
    Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭Hans Bricks


    Zen65 wrote: »
    That is nonsensical. The number of school places is determined by the number of students. If a new school is set up it needs to be funded by the state in exactly the same way as any other school, and since the % shift of school attendees will tend to be from the majority (Catholic) schools to these new non-denominational or non-Catholic schools then the Catholic schools would have to lose funding proportionately and hence close down.

    TL;DR? - Once you set up alternate schools then Catholic schools (or at least, classes) have to be eliminated.

    Multiculturalism. It's a heck-of-a-wonderful thing to embrace, and signals a brave new tomorrow for Ireland.

    Someone's gonna have to educate me here. Is every primary/secondary school with a "St. Mary's .... " name privately owned by the Catholic church, but funded exclusively by the state ? And if so, can't the Department of Education not threaten cuts in funding to these schools should they not adhere to non-denominational standards and regulations ?


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    #287
    Zen65
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭Zen65


    Hans Bricks wrote: »
    Is every primary/secondary school with a "St. Mary's .... " name privately owned by the Catholic church, but funded exclusively by the state ?

    It's not quite that simple.

    A lot of primary (and secondary) schools are owned by a religious order, but the operational costs are provided for by the state (mainly teacher salaries, etc.) This applies even if it is a public (non-fee-paying) school. The teaching curriculum is mainly secular, but the local parish ensures that religious teaching is provided only in the denomination of the owner. Religious preparation for events such as communion and confirmation is conducted in the school for those who wish to avail of it.

    Even for private (fee-paying) schools the owners may choose to teach, or not, their own religious doctrine on top on the school curriculum.

    Neither case permits (AFAIK) for non-teaching of curriculum based on religious beliefs.

    There are also rules around representation on the Board of Management, ensuring some representation by parents etc., but that does not usually dilute the doctrinal teachings by much.


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    #288
    Tarzana2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,553 ✭✭✭Tarzana2


    Sebastian Famous Ram wrote: »
    As I've said before I'm basing it on a far bigger sample than my local church.

    What, like, five churches?


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    #289
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Zen65 wrote: »
    It's not quite that simple.

    A lot of primary (and secondary) schools are owned by a religious order, but the operational costs are provided for by the state (mainly teacher salaries, etc.).

    Mainly everything actually, the state funds between 93 and 95% of all running costs of most schools, with some other extras being funded by parents/community fund raising.

    The state also paid for and continues to pay for most new school building.

    For example it's currently spending €2.2 billion in a five-year capital investment programme launched in March 2012.

    The schools are basically nominally owned by religious communities for historical reasons or for some bizarre reason that the state will not allow itself to own schools.

    I honestly think it's a very strange situation where the state basically pays for everything, but the school is allowed to make this very small nominal contribution to ensure that it retains 'ownership' of everything.


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    #290
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,843 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Sebastian Famous Ram wrote: »
    I never claimed anything of the sort. I probably said something along the lines that catholic schools should be for Catholics first, just as it is in the UK for instance (although over there if you aren't catholic and can't prove you go to mass etc you aren't even considered for entry). I have no problem with other religions setting up schools or educate together schools being setup but converting over Catholic schools to something else would not be an option imo.

    It becomes a massive problem in rural Ireland, where the nearest ET school could be tens of kilometres away. It's nonsensical to have a dozen or so tiny rural schools (and the overhead that requires) because of religious segregation rather than one or two medium ET schools to serve the local (albeit in rural Ireland's case this could mean a 10-20km radius) community.


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    #291
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    It must annoy the anti-Catholic brigade, that they are infact Catholics themselves. I don't particularly give a toss about religion, and am non-practicing, but I was still christened, so am still a Catholic at the end of the day whether I like it or not. Just like 95% of this country. It's only a minute at 6 anyway, so who cares? Get out more if that's all you have to worry about. As long as this country is predominantly Catholic, there will always be some Catholic tradition in it whether people like it or not

    Once you're Confirmed you become a full made member and you can never leave. At this point you become a Soldier of Christ.


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    #292
    DoYouEvenLift
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,188 ✭✭✭DoYouEvenLift


    It's like a minute long, why bother interfering with it, just change the channel if it bothers you. There are still lots of elderly people who enjoy that stuff, do you not have any old relatives who are happy out in their traditional ways?


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    #293
    Cen taurus
    Registered Users Posts: 476 ✭✭Cen taurus


    DoYouEvenLift wrote: »
    It's like a minute long, why bother interfering with it, just change the channel if it bothers you. There are still lots of elderly people who enjoy that stuff, do you not have any old relatives who are happy out in their traditional ways?

    They have, that's the problem holding them back, and apparently they aren't dying off fast enough for some people, hence the demands for euthanasia to be brought in, before the pillows have to come out. No country for old men it seems.


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