The Angelus on RTE

darkpagandeath

RobertKK wrote: »

Yes meant to say nine, I can count, 2+2=22 :pac:

When people love each other very much.... Oh wait sorry wrong thread

-Gets coat- :pac::pac::D

SpaceTime

murpho999 wrote: »

No, it has had its day and has no place in the national broadcaster of what is supposed to be a secular state.

Ireland, a secular state?! LOL ...

The current constitution had major input from Archbishop of Dublin, John Charles McQuaid. For some bizarre reason they thought they had to run everything by him.

The preamble is cringe-inducingly religious :

In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,

We, the people of Éire,

Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,

Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,

And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations,

Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.

It even claims its source of sovereignty is god, much like a monarchy instead of stating that it's sovereign power comes from the people, which is what a Republic should be doing.


We have prayers in the Dail and Seanad at every meeting

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/a-misc/prayer.htm

www.Oireachtas.ie wrote:

Direct, we beseech Thee, O Lord, our actions by Thy holy inspirations and carry them on by Thy gracious assistance; that every word and work of ours may always begin from Thee, and by Thee be happily ended; through Christ our Lord. Amen.

The above prayer is said at the commencement of each day's business in the Dáil by the Ceann Comhairle, and in the Seanad by the Clerk of the Seanad.

For the sake of comparison, here's the French 1946 preamble .. and how a genuine republic, as opposed to a place that thinks republic = "not England" does things.

This is at least something you could actually kind of feel is at least a bit inspirational and all about being a serious country as opposed to ours which is more like something you'd say at Mass!

Long paste, but it's worth a flick through just to see the comparison between the two preambles.

French Constitution translated wrote:

In the morrow of the victory achieved by the free peoples over the regimes that had sought to enslave and degrade humanity, the people of France proclaim anew that each human being, without distinction of race, religion or creed, possesses sacred and inalienable rights.

They solemnly reaffirm the rights and freedoms of man and the citizen enshrined in the Declaration of Rights of 1789 and the fundamental principles acknowledged in the laws of the Republic.

They further proclaim, as being especially necessary to our times, the political, economic and social principles enumerated below:
The law guarantees women equal rights to those of men in all spheres.
Any man persecuted in virtue of his actions in favour of liberty may claim the right of asylum upon the territories of the Republic.

Each person has the duty to work and the right to employment. No person may suffer prejudice in his work or employment by virtue of his origins, opinions or beliefs.

All men may defend their rights and interests through union action and may belong to the union of their choice.
The right to strike shall be exercised within the framework of the laws governing it.

All workers shall, through the intermediary of their representatives, participate in the collective determination of their conditions of work and in the management of the work place.

All property and all enterprises that have or that may acquire the character of a public service or de facto monopoly shall become the property of society.
The Nation shall provide the individual and the family with the conditions necessary to their development.

It shall guarantee to all, notably to children, mothers and elderly workers, protection of their health, material security, rest and leisure. All people who, by virtue of their age, physical or mental condition, or economic situation, are
incapable of working, shall have to the right to receive suitable means of existence from society.

The Nation proclaims the solidarity and equality of all French people in bearing the burden resulting from national calamities.

The Nation guarantees equal access for children and adults to instruction, vocational training and culture. The provision of free, public and secular education at all levels is a duty of the State.

The French Republic, faithful to its traditions, shall respect the rules of public international law. It shall undertake no war aimed at conquest, nor shall it ever employ force against the freedom of any people.

Subject to reciprocity, France shall consent to the limitations upon its sovereignty necessary to the organisation and preservation of peace.

France shall form with its overseas peoples a Union founded upon equal rights and duties, without distinction of race or religion.

The French Union shall be composed of nations and peoples who agree to pool or coordinate their resources and their efforts in order to develop their respective civilisations, increase their well-being, and ensure their security.

Faithful to its traditional mission, France desires to guide the peoples under its responsibility towards the freedom to administer themselves and to manage their own affairs democratically; eschewing all systems of colonisation founded upon arbitrary rule, it guarantees to all equal access to public office and the individual or collective exercise of the rights and freedoms proclaimed or confirmed herein.

Could we not have something more like that? It'd be far more in the spirit of 1916 than the Prayer at Bedtime we have at the moment.

murpho999

SpaceTime wrote: »

Ireland, a secular state?! LOL ...

The current constitution had major input from Archbishop of Dublin, John Charles McQuaid. For some bizarre reason they thought they had to run everything by him....

I agree totally that the church still has far too much influence over government, media and society in general but the fact is officially Ireland is secular.

Ironically, the UK, where the article criticising RTE comes from actually is not secular as its head of state is also the leader of a church.

SpaceTime

murpho999 wrote: »

I agree totally that the church still has far too much influence over government, media and society in general but the fact is officially Ireland is secular.

Ironically, the UK, where the article criticising RTE comes from actually is not secular as its head of state is also the leader of a church.

I find UK journalists rather high handed about doling out criticism of Ireland's lack of secularism to be quite honest given the government structures over there contain "the Lords Spiritual" i.e. the 26 bishops of the Church of England who sit as legislators in the House of Lords!

It's something you wouldn't see anywhere outside of perhaps an islamic dictatorship tbh and belongs in the medieval era.

The Queen's role as Head of the Church of England is relatively minor in comparison to that.

The big concern I'd have in Ireland though is that in areas like reproductive rights, there has been WAY WAY too much influence by the Church and I think we are completely open to very justifiable criticism over that. Banning condoms from 1935 until almost the 1980s is actually something we should be very embarrassed about. The situation with our abortion laws, as controversial and all as that topic is, is nuts too and would seem to be way out of whack with surveys of modern Irish public opinion too.

The first divorce since the foundation of the state only took place on January 17, 1997!!!!!!!!!
That kind of thing leaves us WIDE open to very very justifiable harsh criticism about our lack of secularism historically (and very recently).

We also still have a situation where >90% of schools are Catholic, yet entirely state funded and something like 96% of schools are religious ethos. Which basically means that the state offers almost zero secular education opportunities other than at 3rd level (UCC, and NUIG are fully secular)

The French or the Americans could certainly give us some justifiable stick though for going around claiming we're a Republic.

Many of our weird structures tend to come from having not really reformed the UK system and instead just declaring a Republic and thinking that's all you had to do. We really should have done a lot more to completely shake up the whole structure of the state to ensure that it is open, fair, equal and secular and probably have followed a model more like the French or the American one.

Americans can be very vocal about their religious beliefs but, the state is (other than a few attempts to insert lines like "in God we trust" to prove they weren't commies in the 1950s) very, very secular.

Meleftone

Does anyone else play Metallica "For whom the bell tolls" when they hear it or is it just me.

circadian

Get rid and bring in topless weather forecast.

SpaceTime

You could always replace it with the extremely stuffy ARD (German Public TV) approach of a single bong.

Angela would feel much more at home while she's over checking the accounts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CiWy5cwPPI

Generic Dreadhead

Who are all these f**king peasants watching live RTE anyway? :pac:

Baggy Trousers

StewartGriffin wrote: »

What type of person decides it's a great idea to start a new thread, in After Hours, about The Angelus, especially when it's been done so often before.

To be fair, Kermit is the best weather forecaster on the Weather forum this winter. He correctly predicted all the cold snaps and snow events. The man is really hot right now. You should see his 'blue steel'! I love him.

SpaceTime

Could we not get some funky news startups too - we pay enough for TV licenses the least they could do is something a bit more like these danish ones : bit of design and outsourced probably to RedBee (same people who do BBC graphics)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMz6G1V1xVo

The_Banker

while we are getting rid of the angelus can we also get rid of all the bloody crosses off our mountains?

I doubt any of um have planning permission.

SpaceTime

They're probably technically classified as wind turbines thus are exempt.

jonasjones

murpho999 wrote: »

It's not my tradition and should not be forced on you by a broadcaster. If you want to observe a religious event at 12:00 and 18:00 then that's your own business.
People complain about smoking and drinking restrictions are Nanny state but this is worse in my opinion.

Big difference. Smoking and drinking have implications on health. As long as taxes are used to fund hospitals and other health services when you drink/smoke it has an indirect impact on other people in the form of taxes. Second hand smoking has potential direct impact on other peoples' health. The Angelus really doesn't impact anyone in any meaningful way. The Angelus is avoidable, the effects of drink and smoking are generally not.

I don't have strong feelings for or against the Angelus but, as with many things online, I sense this is an argument for the sake of an argument...

Zen65

SpaceTime wrote: »

They're probably technically classified as wind turbines thus are exempt.

Wind turbines are not exempt from Planning Permission!

K4t

hallo dare wrote: »

I don't mind it, sure it's doing no harm for all of 60 seconds.
.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I actually don't mind it. It's a bit quirky almost like a tradition at this stage.

jimgoose wrote: »

It's quaint and quirky, and does no harm. Leave it, I say.

As convincing and compelling as these arguments may be. . . . .it still does not make it right for the angelus to be broadcast on national television.

If the angelus is going to remain then there should also be a minute for all other religions; Islam, Judaism, Buddhism etc. But of course many Irish Catholics and others don't actually believe in freedom of religion, merely freedom of their own religion.

murpho999

jonasjones wrote: »

Big difference. Smoking and drinking have implications on health. As long as taxes are used to fund hospitals and other health services when you drink/smoke it has an indirect impact on other people in the form of taxes. Second hand smoking has potential direct impact on other peoples' health. The Angelus really doesn't impact anyone in any meaningful way. The Angelus is avoidable, the effects of drink and smoking are generally not.

I don't have strong feelings for or against the Angelus but, as with many things online, I sense this is an argument for the sake of an argument...

Just because something is avoidable, does not make it right or that it should happen.

OldRio

[QUOTE=K4t;94561461

If the angelus is going to remain then there should also be a minute for all other religions; Islam, Judaism, Buddhism etc. But of course many Irish Catholics and others don't actually believe in freedom of religion, merely freedom of their own religion.[/QUOTE]

But why? I wouldn't expect the Angelus in any other country.

todders

ted1 wrote: »

Is it supposed to be a secular state?

If they remove it, How will the full the extra minute before the six one news ?

Basic grammar lessons?

wendell borton

I don't consider myself a catholic but also don't think it should go. Yes there's lots of other religions now but this country has been Christian for over a thousand years which has deeply influenced the culture of this country for better or worse.

K4t

wendell borton wrote: »

I don't consider myself a catholic but also don't think it should go. Yes there's lots of other religions now but this country has been Christian for over a thousand years which has deeply influenced the culture of this country for better or worse.

I hope you don't consider yourself a believer in secularism either.

To Elland Back

BMJD wrote: »

Bong




Bong



Bong





Bong



Bong





Bong




Bong




Bong



Bong



ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!?!

Nothing but feckin repeats on RTE

Kiwi in IE

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

..........even when one spouse is abusive as divorce is a 'sin'.

Watch the anti-Catholic brigade are rolling into town!!

The_Valeyard

BMJD wrote: »

Bong




Bong



Bong





Bong



Bong





Bong




Bong




Bong



Bong



ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!?!

No, I am not. I was told there are 18 Bongs!!! You are short a few bongs and ripping people off!!!!

catallus

OldRio wrote: »

But why? I wouldn't expect the Angelus in any other country.

With the marvellous modern God-given miracles of portable music players one can delight in the Angelus anyplace in the whole of creation at the time of one's choosing.

mikom

catallus wrote: »

With the marvellous modern God-given miracles of portable music players one can delight in the Angelus anyplace in the whole of creation at the time of one's choosing.

A hand bell has been around for ages.......

catallus

mikom wrote: »

A hand bell has been around for ages.......

Ha! You think just anyone can bang out an Angelus?

Ah, sweet innocence

I bet you couldn't do one!

K4t

Sebastian Famous Ram wrote: »

Watch the anti-Catholic brigade are rolling into town!!

I find these kind of comments intriguing, and somewhat scary; they imply that there is something wrong or strange about being anti-Catholic and anti-all of the horrible beliefs it promotes. Now you will say, not all Catholics believe everything written in the Bible, and that is fine. And I have nothing against a person's right to hold religious belief(s), it's a free country thank God. But while I could understand the sentiment you express being expressed if perhaps there was a minute silence in support of Atheism before the RTE news, to find it on a thread about the angelus, where the Catholic brigade's beliefs are enforced on others by the state, is baffling, but I suppose not all that surprising.

catallus

K4t wrote: »

I find..........they imply that there is something wrong or strange about being anti-Catholic and anti-all of the horrible beliefs it promotes...

There is something wrong and strange about holding such despicable attitudes!

suicide_circus

The_Valeyard wrote: »

No, I am not. I was told there are 18 Bongs!!!

My kinda party

miss tickle

K4t wrote: »

As convincing and compelling as these arguments may be. . . . .it still does not make it right for the angelus to be broadcast on national television.

If the angelus is going to remain then there should also be a minute for all other religions; Islam, Judaism, Buddhism etc. But of course many Irish Catholics and others don't actually believe in freedom of religion, merely freedom of their own religion.

Do we have to lose all our traditions. I don't watch RTE anymore, but I remember the angelus being a minute of quiet reflection. Anyone watching RTE at that time can take a moment of quiet reflection if they so wish, or change channel.