Padraig Nally is attacked again!

mikom

anncoates wrote: »

Why has that figure (back-facing) got two arses on its back?

Easier hit with a 12-bore.

on the river

Wibbs wrote: »

To be fair that's a cultural thing. I know settled traveler folks who are honest and hard working as the day is long and they had very ostentatious headstones and funeral services.

That is true. However the stereotypical view about travellers prevail to the majority.

The Nally case not only showed the clear divide which exists between settled and traveller people but also the cultural difference which continues to present itself.

jungleman

I saw the Charlie Bird interview with Nally a couple of years ago, it was heartbreaking. He was a shell of a man, those vermin terrorised him and ruined his life. A man about 60 years of age was reduced to spending nights in his shed because he was too scared to sleep in his own house. Those scumbags deserved everything they got, whether they were fleeing the property or not.

The most frustrating thing is that the judiciary system is incapable of dealing with crimes like burglary or trespassing - crimes which can really ruin people's lives. Equally as frustrating is that travellers like John Ward think they are above the law, and in effect they are above the law because 80 prior convictions was not enough to have him thrown in jail. Do CAB not look into traveller assets? How is it they can afford brand new vans, or buy up a whole town like Rathkeale (buying houses with cash for far above their market price). Until the law actually becomes effective in dealing with travelling gangs, people like Padraig Nally will continue to have their lives reduced to nothing but fear.

Axel Lamp

jungleman wrote: »

I saw the Charlie Bird interview with Nally a couple of years ago, it was heartbreaking. He was a shell of a man, those vermin terrorised him and ruined his life. A man about 60 years of age was reduced to spending nights in his shed because he was too scared to sleep in his own house. Those scumbags deserved everything they got, whether they were fleeing the property or not.

The most frustrating thing is that the judiciary system is incapable of dealing with crimes like burglary or trespassing - crimes which can really ruin people's lives. Equally as frustrating is that travellers like John Ward think they are above the law, and in effect they are above the law because 80 prior convictions was not enough to have him thrown in jail. Do CAB not look into traveller assets? How is it they can afford brand new vans, or buy up a whole town like Rathkeale (buying houses with cash for far above their market price). Until the law actually becomes effective in dealing with travelling gangs, people like Padraig Nally will continue to have their lives reduced to nothing but fear.

Spot on

on the river

Axel Lamp wrote: »

Spot on

You can't just change the law to target a certain ethnic group in society.
That undermines the whole concept of democracy.

jungleman

on the river wrote: »

You can't just change the law to target a certain ethnic group in society.
That undermines the whole concept of democracy.

Whoooaaaa, that's not what I meant. I didn't mean lock of and throw away the key for travellers.
What I meant is that these travelling gangs are deliberately targeting vulnerable people, old people, living alone. As do other gangs, non travellers. These crimes are not opportunistic burglaries, they are targeted, calculated, and carefully planned. There has to be tougher legislation for these crimes, with mandatory, minimum sentences.

Just to clear that up, I was lumping actual travellers and non travellers in "travelling gangs". It was the crime I was talking about, not the perpetrators.

bcklschaps

Just shocking that this decent auld skin is getting terrorized again.

I think that if he 'wasted' a few more gangsters .. nobody would shed a tear for them... and no judge in the country would convict him either. Then maybe these thugs would learn that its not OK to trespass and rob stuff from peoples properties.

If they tried this in any of the southern states of USA or places like South Africa ... the owner would blast them straight to hell .. and worry about the consequences later. (and there would be absolutely zero consequences..Home/property owner has all the rights)

cerastes

floggg wrote: »

Yes, it must have been very hard for him standing over a wounded and man and shooting him dead.

Ward should have considered this before terrorising an old man? if more thought they might end up shot, it might end.

FTA69 wrote: »

I think the main reason Nally got a custodial sentence was the manner in which he killed Ward. The fact he critically wounded him, beat him around the head with a stick and then reloaded his gun, shot him dead, dumped his body over a wall and then went out to tell the son his father "won't be coming back" stretched beyond typical 'self-defence.'

That having been said, it's very easy to judge an elderly man who had been terrorised in his own home by either Ward, or at the very least, people like Ward. Anyone who thinks Ward was at that house for anything other than purposes dodgy is only deluding themselves. Ward was a serial and serious criminal with convictions for a variety of violent offenses. While I don't think what happened to him was the ideal application of justice, the fact remains that if he wasn't a robbing criminal bastard; he'd be alive today.

Not sure of where Nally was in relation to the attackers, but he should have waited till they became a threat in his home, warn them and if using the only item capable of defending against 3 men? fire a warning shot, if they proceed, then open up at close range so whoever was there was not wounded, self defence.

mikom wrote: »

A harmless ould lad who once attacked a car with a slash-hook while a woman and two children were inside.
Eighty, various convictions, and three warrants out for his arrest at the time of his death, one of which was for brandishing a slash hook at guards that came to his halting site.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070928081023/http://www.96fm.ie/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=67035&pt=n

At the least he was coming back with a slash hook.

I was recently thinking, a woman was killed when 2-3 travellers while being chased by the Gardai near a toll station, another elderly person was killed when 2 travellers were in the process of committing crimes, have these people been caught? where does it end? Locked up and the key thrown away is too good for them and costs us.

Wibbs wrote: »

To be fair that's a cultural thing. I know settled traveler folks who are honest and hard working as the day is long and they had very ostentatious headstones and funeral services.

Its quite disgusting, but where does the money come from?

jungleman

cerastes wrote: »

Its quite disgusting, but where does the money come from?

I always wonder why Criminal Assets Bureau don't investigate that.

tayto lover

fits wrote: »

This thread! Replace all mention of travellers with blacks. See how it sounds then.

BUT I don't see many reports of gangs of blacks roaming the country to prey on the elderly.

Yakult

floggg wrote: »

The person he shot should should have been arrested and jailed if he was attempting to steal from him

Because that works out so great, doesn't it?

Wibbs

cerastes wrote: »

Its quite disgusting,

Just because it's different to what you find appropriate doesn't make it disgusting.

but where does the money come from?

In the case of the settled Travelers I knew it came from their own hard and honestly earned money(half of them had office type jobs, others were mechanics, carpenters etc).

But the point I made earlier is that though those folks were Travelers they were settled and integrated, their kids were all schooled and they worked and paid tax. The problem is those Travelers are increasingly invisible and the still mobile Traveler sub culture with it's much more prevalent and myriad social issues, rates of unemployment, crime, violence and spousal abuse is the one that is "winning" in the public mind and all Travelers are being tarred with the same brush.

on the river

on the river wrote: »

You can't just change the law to target a certain ethnic group in society.
That undermines the whole concept of democracy.

No one said the law needs to be changed it just needs to be enforced for certain groups. There is major inequality when it comes to the application of the law, normal people are subject to it while criminal travelers laugh at it. This applies at all levels from cruelty to animals, animals wandering around roads causing crashes etc to serious crimes.

jungleman wrote: »

I always wonder why Criminal Assets Bureau don't investigate that.

You can be damn sure revenue would be investigating if a normal settled person had a headstone which appeared to be too fancy for their means.

Mal-Adjusted

I think it's horrible that this man is being targeted again. Regarding what happened originally, i'm a bit torn on how to feel. While i'm against the loss of human life no matter how much of a scumbag they are (and he was), Mr Nally was terrorized and at his wits end. He certainly felt like he had no other choice.

While he did stand over a helpless man and execute him, it's very likely that that horrible action may have saved his own life in the weeks afterwards. I won't condemn the man, but the way some people here are cheering on a violent death is sickening.

Taking emotion aside, Nally's one real mistake was not killing him with the first shot. It would have saved him 11 months in prison.

FTA69

cerastes wrote: »

Not sure of where Nally was in relation to the attackers, but he should have waited till they became a threat in his home, warn them and if using the only item capable of defending against 3 men? fire a warning shot, if they proceed, then open up at close range so whoever was there was not wounded, self defence.

I don't know what you're getting at here. There was one man on the property, Frog Ward and his son, who was sitting in a car nearby. Nally had a single barrel shotgun which discharged one shot at a time. Personally I think if Nally had shot and killed him outright he should have been released without charge, it was the subsequent beating and reloading of the gun after a period of time which makes the whole self-defence argument a bit iffy.

That having been said, I'm not judging Nally at all as I have no doubt I'd be capable of doing the exact same if I was subject to the torment he was. It's easy to pontificate but nobody knows how they'd react if they were confronted with a scary criminal like John Ward in their own home.

And let's be honest in the appraisal of the situation here; one was a man who was never in trouble in his life, an elderly farmer who worked hard since he was a child in order to make an honest living and the other was a violent, wife-beating criminal who made his living preying on the defenceless. It's not hard to see who engineered this situation.

who the fug

on the river wrote: »

You can't just change the law to target a certain ethnic group in society.
That undermines the whole concept of democracy.

Mobile criminals are an ethnic group now, Jog On

irishgeo

The problem is the courts. Quotes of 40 previous convictions make regular reading in the local press.

For a very Catholic group of society. They seem to have a very lax following of the ten commandments .

They don't seem to turn the other cheek very often as fueds seem to last a long time.

fits

Wibbs wrote: »

Not quite. Take "Blacks", Afro Caribbean folks in the UK. You will find many doctors, teachers, IT types, and a whole heap of professionals who are from that demographic. And they did that within a generation of arriving by taking advantage of free education(up to third level anyway) and other social help. Yes there are problems in ghetto type areas(ditto for "Whites").

The difference with the Traveler demographic here is more and more they are ghettoising themselves. Yes there are also many Travelers that are making a valued contribution to wider society, but the tendency is strong for them being settled Travelers(often for a couple of generations back). People who took advantage of free education, social housing and the rest to integrate into the wider society, while keeping many of the traditions of their history and culture. They were/are the folks who took advantage of the social help and made hay with it. The ones who haven't are nigh on forced by their more recent culture not to come into the fold, even if they want to.

Take Frog ward. His son has been gaoled for various crimes including theft and fraud, yet what chance did he have if had wanted to be a doctor? He wasn't born like that, he was born into it and until that cycle is changed where a minority of dodgy types control the wider community and do so through generations then the problems will always remain and no amount of pla mas from Pavee Point will change that.

My point is that frog ward wasnt a sh1thead cos he was a traveller. He was a sh1thead cos he was a sh1thead.

People should be judged as individuals (travellers, blacks, irish) not on who their parents are. And prejudice such as is shown in this thread makes it extremely difficult for individuals to break out of the cycle. I'm talking about things like segregation and isolation in schools here... Which aren't such a great leap from apartheid.

Fwiw I wouldn't have supported convicting nally either.

daUbiq

Ward would still be alive if he had been imprisoned by the state for his 80 convictions so it's the states fault he is dead.

Valetta

daUbiq wrote: »

Ward would still be alive if he had been imprisoned by the state for his 80 convictions so it's the states fault he is dead.

Go back one step.

He would be alive today if he didn't go around robbing people and accruing 80 convictions, so it's his own fault he's dead.

Wibbs

fits wrote: »

My point is that frog ward wasnt a sh1thead cos he was a traveller. He was a sh1thead cos he was a sh1thead.

One could also argue that part of that culture promotes "shítheads".

People should be judged as individuals (travellers, blacks, irish) not on who their parents are. And prejudice such as is shown in this thread makes it extremely difficult for individuals to break out of the cycle. I'm talking about things like segregation and isolation in schools here... Which aren't such a great leap from apartheid.

While there is a social component to that kinda thing it is not legal or governmental in nature, so just a tad different to apartheid. And as I said one of the biggest problems is the sub culture among the wider Traveler culture that promotes antisocial behaviour. Ward's son went through a phase of criminal behaviour(hopefully it was a phase), not because he was born that way, but because he was born into that subculture of encouraged separatism xenophobia and criminality. If he had been born in a suburb of Galway the chances are far higher he would have avoided "shíthead" behaviour entirely.

daUbiq

Valetta wrote: »

Go back one step.

He would be alive today if he didn't go around robbing people and accruing 80 convictions, so it's his own fault he's dead.

That was aimed at the do gooders blaming ward for Nally's death but you are right it is his own fault.. :eek:

Mal-Adjusted

daUbiq wrote: »

Ward would still be alive if he had been imprisoned by the state for his 80 convictions so it's the states fault he is dead.

Ward would still be alive if the state had done it's job, true, but all the state did was allow him the opportunity to get himself killed, but his choices were his own and so is the responsibility for putting himself (and Nally) in that situation.

daUbiq wrote: »

That was aimed at the do gooders blaming ward for Nally's death but you are right it is his own fault.. :eek:

Ward didn't kill Nally. In fact Nally is very much alive!

fits

Wibbs wrote: »

One could also argue that part of that culture promotes "shítheads".

absolutely
So does growing up on sheriff st, or drimnagh. Both areas where there are a high proportion of lovely people.

I am not saying there aren't massive problems. There obviously are.

I am saying people (ie young travellers) are going to find it difficult to break out of it if they are categorised as future criminals and troublemakers already as young children. And that will require a conscious effort on the part of travellers and non travellers. In the same way people had to confront their inherent racism in US for example.

Patsprat

To Nally this has nothing to do with race or creed but people on here think it is. This is about a person defending his house farm and contents push to the edge
its great to tap away on the laptops and ipads discussing how you would defend your belongings yeah easy said
all the belongings in his house where taken down to the nicely folded bed linen his late mother had put away
very easy said this man never asked for this he never asked for the state to pay his way in life he had what he needed and one of those needs was peace

floggg

If the facts of the case were the same, except for the fact that Ward was a first time offender, would Nally be justified in killing him (after stopping to reload)?*


Justified morally in your opinion, rather than necessarily in any legal context?

SeanW

floggg wrote: »

If the facts of the case were the same, except for the fact that Ward was a first time offender, would Nally be justified in killing him (after stopping to reload)?

The legal process that cleared Nally of all wrongdoing did not take "Frog"s convictions into account.

Ward went there for no reason other than to rob Nally, with his son to help him commit the robbery. After taking the first shot, Nally continued to feel threatened, so he fired again. End of story. According to the law at least ... whatever about the Left.

floggg

SeanW wrote: »

The legal process that cleared Nally of all wrongdoing did not take "Frog"s convictions into account.

Ward went there for no reason other than to rob Nally, with his son to help him commit the robbery. After taking the first shot, Nally continued to feel threatened, so he fired again. End of story. According to the law at least ... whatever about the Left.

I wasn't asking whether it would be justified in the eyes of the law, but in people's opinions (I should have clarified that).

Sonderkommando

floggg wrote: »

I wasn't asking whether it would be justified in the eyes of the law, but in people's opinions (I should have clarified that).

Justifiable, if you enter someone's property to steal, 1 conviction or 80 convictions should not matter. You are invading someone's living space which they have worked hard all their life for.

cerastes

Wibbs wrote: »

Just because it's different to what you find appropriate doesn't make it disgusting. In the case of the settled Travelers I knew it came from their own hard and honestly earned money(half of them had office type jobs, others were mechanics, carpenters etc).

But the point I made earlier is that though those folks were Travelers they were settled and integrated, their kids were all schooled and they worked and paid tax. The problem is those Travelers are increasingly invisible and the still mobile Traveler sub culture with it's much more prevalent and myriad social issues, rates of unemployment, crime, violence and spousal abuse is the one that is "winning" in the public mind and all Travelers are being tarred with the same brush.

Its not because its different, its tasteless and how is it acceptable for a criminal to do this, he wasnt a hard working salt of the earth type, he was scum, I made no reference to hardworking travellers, my experience with them doesnt make me think much of them.

FTA69 wrote: »

I don't know what you're getting at here. There was one man on the property, Frog Ward and his son, who was sitting in a car nearby. Nally had a single barrel shotgun which discharged one shot at a time. Personally I think if Nally had shot and killed him outright he should have been released without charge, it was the subsequent beating and reloading of the gun after a period of time which makes the whole self-defence argument a bit iffy.

That having been said, I'm not judging Nally at all as I have no doubt I'd be capable of doing the exact same if I was subject to the torment he was. It's easy to pontificate but nobody knows how they'd react if they were confronted with a scary criminal like John Ward in their own home.

And let's be honest in the appraisal of the situation here; one was a man who was never in trouble in his life, an elderly farmer who worked hard since he was a child in order to make an honest living and the other was a violent, wife-beating criminal who made his living preying on the defenceless. It's not hard to see who engineered this situation.

Im not criticising Nally, I think its easy to say what he should have done, but I guess when you have been intimidated and are out somewhere on your own without much chance of the gardai turning up, and where elderly people have been beaten horribly in the past, Id have opened fire myself, Id like to think I shouldnt have to be concerned when and how I opened fire to defend myself if it ever came to that, which I hope nwouldnt. The thing is, there were 3 of them, at any time they could easily have attacked him, he may not have known where the others were but knew there were numbers before. I think if he was going to defend himself it would have been better had he not left himself open to having even to defend his actions. That he had to in light of what happened is crazy. Ward should have been locked up indefinitely, can you imagine this being read somewhere like the US, where I think 3 strikes sounds harsh, can you imagine what this sounds like? 20, 30 40, 60, 80, when is a criminal history not enough to put someone away for good. This person was not some upstanding member of society, he should have been locked away long before, same for any traveller or non traveller.

These kind of people are on the loose openly a threat to ordinary and vulnerable people because they are cowards, its a shame he didnt just get him the first time in one go. Anyone who defends a person that will threaten and intimidate anyone but particularily someone that may be more vulnerable like an elderly or is isolated person, obviously doesnt know what they are talking about or has no experience of being on the receiving end. Ive experienced threats and intimidation from this community, they are cowards and operate in packs mostly, never alone that I could see.
How many of these sorts have ruined families? theres at least 4 lately that have caused deaths, have they been caught, all with a trail of crimes behind them.
Its not something that I generally believe, but in the case of anyone threatening or intimidating someone in their home, deserve what they get.
If there was more of that, then there might be less threat of the crimes happening, as the Gardai and the judicial system seem powerless to keep these kind of animals off the street.

I appreciate they may have missed chances in life, but that is not their victims fault, for anyone to say that, its like saying, well some old man got beaten to a pulp, but its society's fault becuase the guy that beat him around the head with an iron bar missed out, fcuk it I missed out on many opportunities never available to me, I dont go around like this.