Leo Again

efb · 08-02-2015 03:38PM

fran17 wrote: »

"ignorant of what msm means",I know there's irony there somewhere...
So maybe its just my ignorance Joey,but if a man has sex with another man,thus excluding him from being straight,and he does not identify himself as either gay or bisexual also.What pray tell does that make him?
Please answer this question after the previous question you now ignored twice.

In denial. MSM is the term used, ESRI have it at 7% accept that

PopePalpatine · 08-02-2015 07:49PM

B_Wayne wrote: »

Now I'm exceedingly disappointed,they're not making a season 3. :O Outlandish claims in this thread, I'm shocked so I am...

Dammit, really?

Nodin · 08-02-2015 07:53PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Dammit, really?

Yep. That being said HBO are doing an American remake. Ok its a remake but as its HBO it could be quality with the chance of a 3rd series.

Annasopra · 08-02-2015 10:49PM

fran17 wrote: »

"ignorant of what msm means",I know there's irony there somewhere...
So maybe its just my ignorance Joey,but if a man has sex with another man,thus excluding him from being straight,and he does not identify himself as either gay or bisexual also.What pray tell does that make him?
Please answer this question after the previous question you now ignored twice.

Go actually read what MSM is because you don't seem to have a clue what you are talking about

GalwayGuitar · 08-02-2015 10:58PM

Why not just keep the ban to be on the safe side?

skooterblue2 · 09-02-2015 01:16AM

penguin88 wrote: »

You continue to ignore that this proposal is not to allow donations from MSM, it's to allow men who have not had sex with men in the last 12 months to donate - these are two distinct groups with different risk profiles.

How many HIV cases are diagnosed in men who have not had sex with men in the last 12 months?

I do see your point of MSM. I also see the point see the point that accidents happen. They happen so easily, they happen to vunerable groups like the Neg B women who contracted Hepatitis C and the Haemophiliacs. Nobody seems to be concerned about them. Positive Action is gone.

Things happen that are outside of our control. Tests fail, vials can get mixed up, results get miss read, cross contamination. To be honest consider what goes on........ and the risks involved its a wonder we dont have more accidents.

MSM would double the risk of HIV infections, not my opinion but the director of IBTS. the director was not just concerned with HIV, it was with new varients of current infects and such. You know the difference between a Statistic and a Tragedy? A Statistic is when it happens on the scale of the population. A Tragedy is when it happens to you or someone you know.

efb asked me how I felt about his friends with HIV. Although it is not what it used to be HIV is a life crippling disease. I would not wish it on anyone based on Gender, Age, sexual preference, religion or where they live or what they earn, where they went for education, political party (God forgive me, even Nazis). It is cutting short live and I believe all lives are precious, so many people cannot have kids, have kids with early childhood diseases. I believe every life has the potential to enrich the world we live in.

skooterblue2 · 09-02-2015 01:19AM

GalwayGuitar wrote: »

Why not just keep the ban to be on the safe side?

If we allowed MSM, the risk of HIV infection would double but the yield would only be up 2% according to FDA.
I dont see the risk over benefit.

GalwayGuitar · 09-02-2015 01:23AM

skooterblue2 wrote: »

If we allowed MSM, the risk of HIV infection would double but the yield would only be up 2% according to FDA.
I dont see the risk over benefit.

The way I look at it is, equality is great and all, but stopping the spread of a lethal, incurable disease has to take priority.

Kurtosis · 09-02-2015 01:34AM

skooterblue2 wrote: »

MSM would double the risk of HIV infections, not my opinion but the director of IBTS.

skooterblue2 wrote: »

If we allowed MSM, the risk of HIV infection would double but the yield would only be up 2% according to FDA.
I dont see the risk over benefit.

Have you a link to support either of these?

Also, how many HIV infections occur currently and how many donations occur? You might want to put your two statistics above into absolute terms to better understand the risk benefit ratio.

skooterblue2 · 09-02-2015 01:35AM

GalwayGuitar wrote: »

The way I look at it is, equality is great and all, but stopping the spread of a lethal, incurable disease has to take priority.

One of the First things Leo Varadkar came out with is "this is not an equality issue" and "It must be judged on the basis of science".
Although it is more managable with modern cocktails of medicines and detecable it is rising steadily and consecutively for the last 10 years among gay men.
Great Britian, Sweden and a few others have adopted it, while Germany and France and Switzerland and many others have not.

It is a very difficult one to call. If I was a doctor I wouldnt be willing to put my reputation on the line. I am waiting to hear back a verdict from a professional body.

skooterblue2 · 09-02-2015 01:56AM

penguin88 wrote: »

Have you a link to support either of these?

Also, how many HIV infections occur currently and how many donations occur? You might want to put your two statistics above into absolute terms to better understand the risk benefit ratio.

Both we were quoted in the Irish times. I dont have the Irish HIV figures at hand I will get onto the CSO tomorrow, I would Imagine it would be about 300 annually, undiagnoised among Drug addicts and the homeless? who knows. I would say that 300 is either gay people who are relatively well off and regularily visiting their GP. This number is rising in the gay community and because of cheap heroin coming from an unpoliced Afghanistan and nobody seems to be policing the "Kurdistan" region except the Turks.

Donation? I havent a clue...... Unit are used of a range of things...... cancer patients, dialsys patients, haemophiliac need clotting agents, major surgery like Complete Hip Arthoplasty, transplant patients, open heart surgery, then you have people with problems with bone marrow in the femour.. car accidents..... the list goes on and on. Blood donations are like air the numbers are nt important until the supply affects you.

Kurtosis · 09-02-2015 02:01AM

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Both we were quoted in the Irish times. I dont have the Irish HIV figures at hand I will get onto the CSO tomorrow, I would Imagine it would be about 3000 annualy. This number is rising in the gay community and because of cheap heroin coming from an unpoliced Afghanistan and nobody seems to be policing the "Kurdistan" region except the Turks.

Donation? I havent a clue...... Unit are used of a range of things...... cancer patients, dialsys patients, haemophiliac need clotting agents, major surgery like Complete Hip Arthoplasty, transplant patients, open heart surgery, then you have people with problems with bone marrow in the femour.. car accidents..... the list goes on and on. Blood donations are like air the numbers are nt important until the supply affects you.

Apologies if I was unclear - I meant how many HIV infections occur currently as a result of infected blood donations i.e. how many extra infections would doubling the risk result in? And how many extra units of blood does a 2% increase in donations yield?

It's the answers to these kind of questions that will inform this policy decision.

skooterblue2 · 09-02-2015 02:35AM

Well first all Blood is screened this is accurate up to two weeks for HIV (infection to true positive).
I havent heard of a HIV infection from a blood donation from the IBTS in Ireland since the 1980's haemophilia. This seems to be working well. the chances of getting HIV in Ireland from a blood transfusion is 1 in 15 million (better chances of winning the lottery, imo). This is due to honest donations, regular maintainance and caliberation on machines, careful screening, high quality testing kits, strict auditing and quality staff, diagnositic equipment. If one or more of these factor would be out (e.g bad batch of test kits, miscaliberated lazer, dishonest doner) it would affect these statistics, how much I cant say. One contaminated sample is one too many in the sample See the Hepatisis and haemophilia reports.

you also have to factor in that there is no compensation for blood donations (prevents vunerable people from donating). Our problem with drug culture is no way comparible with other counteries, Hepatitis is low compared to other counteries and there is a safe sex program but it would seem some sectors are not hearing it.

2% as a number is irrelevent. When supply and demand is factored in with there being slightly more demand than supply 2% isnt really that much. When was the last time you got excited about a 2% pay rise? But a 10%?

Kurtosis · 09-02-2015 02:47AM

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Well first all Blood is screened this is accurate up to two weeks for HIV (infection to true positive).
I havent heard of a HIV infection from a blood donation from the IBTS in Ireland since the 1980's haemophilia. This seems to be working well. the chances of getting HIV in Ireland from a blood transfusion is 1 in 15 million (better chances of winning the lottery, imo). This is due to honest donations, regular maintainance and caliberation on machines, careful screening, high quality testing kits, strict auditing and quality staff, diagnositic equipment. If one or more of these factor would be out (e.g bad batch of test kits, miscaliberated lazer, dishonest doner) it would affect these statistics, how much I cant say. One contaminated sample is one too many in the sample See the Hepatisis and haemophilia reports.

you also have to factor in that there is no compensation for blood donations (prevents vunerable people from donating). Our problem with drug culture is no way comparible with other counteries, Hepatitis is low compared to other counteries and there is a safe sex program but it would seem some sectors are not hearing it.

2% as a number is irrelevent. When supply and demand is factored in with there being slightly more demand than supply 2% isnt really that much. When was the last time you got excited about a 2% pay rise? But a 10%?

So, going by your numbers, a doubling of the risk would lead to 1 additional HIV infection due to contaminations for every 15 million transfusions. With about ~135,000 donations a year to the IBTS, that's one additional infection every ~110 years.

A 2% increase on 135,000 donations is 2,700 annually, or 297,000 extra units over 110 years.

Can you now understand how the benefit could outweigh the risk?

skooterblue2 · 09-02-2015 03:09AM

penguin88 wrote: »

So, going by your numbers, a doubling of the risk would lead to 1 additional HIV infection due to contaminations for every 15 million transfusions. With about ~135,000 donations a year to the IBTS, that's one additional infection every ~110 years.

A 2% increase on 135,000 donations is 2,700 annually, or 297,000 extra units over 110 years.

Can you now understand how the benefit could outweigh the risk?

No, doubling the risk of 1 in 15 million donations would be 1 in 7.5million donations. What about those donations? Were all those donations passed? You cant just throw about failed blood products (biohazzard) like waste milk, it has to be sent to France (see failed indaver site in Cork). Also in Australia where they allow MSM donations the amount of HIV infected blood being donated doubled. So that cancels that out. now you have the cost of destroying the blood. I dont know the cost of destroying the blood by unit but a litre and a half of sharps costs €80.

Irish blood is free? no, its not. it is high quality and desirable products. this is due to strict regulation and honest doners. Processing testing tansporting quality and compliance cost a fortune. None of the machines, phleobotimist, nurses,admin, technicians, staticians, testing kits, blood kits come cheap. A questionable sample is by no means a cheap sample. It might cost more to destroy than to have it shipped in from the UK. hence the phrase "cost over benefit"

you also havent addressed rising HIV numbers

Kurtosis · 09-02-2015 03:25AM

skooterblue2 wrote: »

No, doubling the risk of 1 in 15 million donations would be 1 in 7.5million donations. What about those donations? Were all those donations passed? You cant just throw about failed blood products (biohazzard) like waste milk, it has to be sent to France (see failed indaver site in Cork). Also in Australia where they allow MSM donations the amount of HIV infected blood being donated doubled. So that cancels that out. now you have the cost of destroying the blood. I dont know the cost of destroying the blood by unit but a litre and a half of sharps costs €80.

Irish blood is free? no, its not. it is high quality and desirable products. this is due to strict regulation and honest doners. Processing testing tansporting quality and compliance cost a fortune. None of the machines, phleobotimist, nurses,admin, technicians, staticians, testing kits, blood kits come cheap. A questionable sample is by no means a cheap sample. It might cost more to destroy than to have it shipped in from the UK. hence the phrase "cost over benefit"

you also havent addressed rising HIV numbers

You initially said

skooterblue2 wrote: »

If we allowed MSM, the risk of HIV infection would double but the yield would only be up 2% according to FDA.
I dont see the risk over benefit.

so this is what I was responding to.

A 100% increase in risk means instead of 1 infection in 15 million, there would be 2 infections in 15 million. This is an INCREASE of 1 additional infection per 15 million, as I said above. This has to be weighed against the 297,000 additional units of blood, which as you argue is a very valuable resource.

jimdublin15 · 09-02-2015 03:34AM

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Both we were quoted in the Irish times. I dont have the Irish HIV figures at hand I will get onto the CSO tomorrow, I would Imagine it would be about 300 annually, undiagnoised among Drug addicts and the homeless? who knows. I would say that 300 is either gay people who are relatively well off and regularily visiting their GP. This number is rising in the gay community and because of cheap heroin coming from an unpoliced Afghanistan and nobody seems to be policing the "Kurdistan" region except the Turks.

(Sorry I can't post with links)

skooterblue2 - "HIV on the rise due to heroin usage under gays"... Any Proof ?
A: Afghanistan heroin is cheap vs other heroin ?
B: Afghanistan heroin used by gays. ?
C: PWID is cause of HIV increase ?

Anyhow I did not come to same conclusion regarding HIV and PWID cases when I looked at the reports myself. I check PWID, People Who Inject Drugs HIV rate for Ireland and then I also checked for Western Europe and it gave me similar trends.

As I can't post with links but I took final full year reports from the HPSC website. 2014 the final report is not published so I took the 2003 to 2013 report.
New HIV diagnoses by probable route of transmission, 2003 to 2013
(Note I only typed over the % of the 3 main sources)

MSM%--PWID%----Hetero % Total number of new HIV case
2003 19.0 ---12.5

55.4

---401
2004 17.6----20.7

50.0

---358
2005 18.4----20.6

52.5

---326
2006 25.2----16.7

51.3

---353
2007 23.3----14.1

42.2

---391
2008 26.0----9.9

47.0

---404
2009 34.9----7.6

41.0

---395
2010 40.6----7.0

38.5

---303
2011 44.5----5.2

38.3

---326
2012 49.4----3.8

39.1

---340
2013 46.2----5.2

38.1

---344

2013 report inculded:

"Since the early 1980’s and to the end of 2013, 6,979 people have been newly
diagnosed with HIV in Ireland. However, this number does not represent the number of people living with HIV (PLHIV) in Ireland, as it does not take factors such as death and migr
ation into account.

A study of the number of people engaged in HIV in care in Ireland
in 2009/2010 found that 3,254 patients accessed HIV outpatient care in six centres in Ireland over a 12 month period "

Number of HIV diagnoses 344
Rate of diagnoses (per 100,000 population) 7.5
Median age of adult cases 34 years
Age Range of adult cases 19 to 70 years
Males 258 (75.1%)
Females 86 (24.9%)
Male to female ratio 3:1
Route of Transmission
Men who have sex with men (MSM) 159 (46.2%)
Heterosexual 131 (38.1%)
PWID (people who inject drugs) 18 (5.2%)
Mother to Child transmission (MTCT) 3 (0.9%)
Other 2 (0.6%)
Unknown 31 (9.0%)

My own conclusion from the data is the HIV rate is stable over 2003 - 2013. It has up's and down's but mainly stable in the 300 - 400 cases per year. The risk to the blood supply is very very low.

Back to topic:

But I have to be honest and say after reading all I have, my own feelings have not changed. I think (or at least it would make me feel better) if all (MSM and Hetero's) who are not in a stable monogamous relationship would be deferred for 12 months and have full STI screening before donations. However I am also realistic that this would shut down the blood supply.

Reason for my feelings are I have to ask myself do I trust the blood from IBTS ?
Would I feel confident if one of my kids needed blood ... No.

Has nothing to do with MSM or HIV, normally I don't think it's a big increase in risk to allow MSM blood donations however I simply don't trust IBTS to screen correctly for illness and I don't trust the systems they have to do so. I have no proof it's a just a feeling.

skooterblue2 · 09-02-2015 03:41AM

penguin88 wrote: »

You initially said

so this is what I was responding to.

A 100% increase in risk means instead of 1 infection in 15 million, there would be 2 infections in 15 million. This is an INCREASE of 1 additional infection per 15 million, as I said above. This has to be weighed against the 297,000 additional units of blood, which as you argue is a very valuable resource.

Sorry yes that is true you are right on the extra 1 added to 1 in 15m.
It is not a valuable contribution if after taking, documenting , test and transporting the sample it is found to be contaminated. think of the cost of testing? time taken and resources and personel against the cost of destruction.

skooterblue2 · 09-02-2015 03:59AM

jimdublin15 wrote: »

(Sorry I can't post with links)

skooterblue2 - "HIV on the rise due to heroin usage under gays"... Any Proof ?
A: Afghanistan heroin is cheap vs other heroin ?
B: Afghanistan heroin used by gays. ?
C: PWID is cause of HIV increase ?

Anyhow I did not come to same conclusion regarding HIV and PWID cases when I looked at the reports myself. I check PWID, People Who Inject Drugs HIV rate for Ireland and then I also checked for Western Europe and it gave me similar trends.

As I can't post with links but I took final full year reports from the HPSC website. 2014 the final report is not published so I took the 2003 to 2013 report.
New HIV diagnoses by probable route of transmission, 2003 to 2013
(Note I only typed over the % of the 3 main sources)
MSM%--PWID%----Hetero % Total number of new HIV case
2003 19.0 ---12.5
55.4
---401
2004 17.6----20.7
50.0
---358
2005 18.4----20.6
52.5
---326
2006 25.2----16.7
51.3
---353
2007 23.3----14.1
42.2
---391
2008 26.0----9.9
47.0
---404
2009 34.9----7.6
41.0
---395
2010 40.6----7.0
38.5
---303
2011 44.5----5.2
38.3
---326
2012 49.4----3.8
39.1
---340
2013 46.2----5.2
38.1
---344

2013 report inculded:

"Since the early 1980’s and to the end of 2013, 6,979 people have been newly
diagnosed with HIV in Ireland. However, this number does not represent the number of people living with HIV (PLHIV) in Ireland, as it does not take factors such as death and migr
ation into account.

A study of the number of people engaged in HIV in care in Ireland
in 2009/2010 found that 3,254 patients accessed HIV outpatient care in six centres in Ireland over a 12 month period "

Number of HIV diagnoses 344
Rate of diagnoses (per 100,000 population) 7.5
Median age of adult cases 34 years
Age Range of adult cases 19 to 70 years
Males 258 (75.1%)
Females 86 (24.9%)
Male to female ratio 3:1
Route of Transmission
Men who have sex with men (MSM) 159 (46.2%)
Heterosexual 131 (38.1%)
PWID (people who inject drugs) 18 (5.2%)
Mother to Child transmission (MTCT) 3 (0.9%)
Other 2 (0.6%)
Unknown 31 (9.0%)

My own conclusion from the data is the HIV rate is stable over 2003 - 2013. It has up's and down's but mainly stable in the 300 - 400 cases per year. The risk to the blood supply is very very low.

Back to topic:

But I have to be honest and say after reading all I have, my own feelings have not changed. I think (or at least it would make me feel better) if all (MSM and Hetero's) who are not in a stable monogamous relationship would be deferred for 12 months and have full STI screening before donations. However I am also realistic that this would shut down the blood supply.

Reason for my feelings are I have to ask myself do I trust the blood from IBTS ?
Would I feel confident if one of my kids needed blood ... No.

Has nothing to do with MSM or HIV, normally I don't think it's a big increase in risk to allow MSM blood donations however I simply don't trust IBTS to screen correctly for illness and I don't trust the systems they have to do so. I have no proof it's a just a feeling.

First I would like to say I wasnt trying to associate gay life style with drugs.
The Poppy is grown in Afghanistan and NATO forces arent interfereing Poppy cultivation. Saddam Hussein (like him or not), backed by the US used to harrass the Kurds transporting heroin to Turkey and onto Europe from the 70's to the 90's. No one in the area likes the Kurds. They are the worlds largest stateless nation circa 30M. They transport Opium paste to Turkey for processing. unharassed they are bringing in more heroin cheaper. 90% of Heroin on European Streets comes from Afghanistan.

This sterile blood technology is still in its infancy, Thank you for your research.
I think you conclusion is wrong that the number is stable. The total number is growing about 10% per year at best. It is not total number of cases. It is total number of new cases. This suggest the numbers are accellerating. People are now living longer, this is having a cumulative effect.

Also it is about new varients of other disease and new infections according to the IBTS.

jimdublin15 · 09-02-2015 05:30AM

`

skooterblue2 wrote: »

First I would like to say I wasnt trying to associate gay life style with drugs.
The Poppy is grown in Afghanistan and NATO forces arent interfereing Poppy cultivation. Saddam Hussein (like him or not), backed by the US used to harrass the Kurds transporting heroin to Turkey and onto Europe from the 70's to the 90's. No one in the area likes the Kurds. They are the worlds largest stateless nation.
.

Thank you for clarifying that as the post you had seemed very much like it make that link between Heroin and Gays and PWID and HIV. And I do know how heroin is made and transported, again my reason for question was your post was it seemed very much to link it to being cheaper heroin vs other heron on the market and the gay population. But you have clarified that you did not mean that suggestion.

skooterblue2 wrote: »

This sterile blood technology is still in its infancy.

The technology is quite new and I don't trust the IBTS to have it or use it correctly.
(As said before no proof yet just my own feeling)

skooterblue2 wrote: »

I think you conclusion is wrong that the number is stable. The total number is growing about 10% per year at best. It is not total number of cases. It is total number of new cases. This suggest the numbers are accelerating
People are now living longer, this is having a cumulative effect

My conclusion is based on actually data regarding the number of "new" infections diagnosed, and reports from the HSE. This new number is simply stable in the overall, even in %.

- How do you get a 10% increase in new HIV infections per year ?

HSE reports 300 - 400 case per year 2003 - 2013 (peak in 2003 at 401 and 2008 at 404)
Overall population size over the same time frame grew according to the census:

Year Population %Change
2011 4.58m +7.4
2006 4.24m +8.1
2002 3.92m +8.2

- I really don’t see how do you get 10% increase of new HIV cases per year?

Now it is true that the number of PLHIV (people living with HIV) (under treatment) are living now near normal life spans so we would or may expect an increase of PLHIV total in the population instead of dying like they did in the 80's/90's.
AIDSMAP & WHO. However that is a different discussion I think, as they would not be donating blood anytime soon. MSM or otherwise.

As said in my last post 2013 HSE report shows overtime more may have been diagnosed but it did not track migration and death so a HSE study of the number of people engaged in HIV in care in Ireland in 2009/2010 found that 3,254 patients accessed HIV outpatient care in six centers in Ireland over a 12 month period " This is good to know as PLHIV would need to visit outpatient care every 3/6 months for bloods and drugs.

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Also it is about new varients of other disease and new infections according to the IBTS.

Problem with that is we have new infections each year, to be honest I don't see or have seen data linking it to MSM. I mean each year we have new flu types and the media do a big hype about it (WHO website reports: Worldwide, these annual epidemics are estimated to result in about 3 to 5 million cases of severe illness, and about 250 000 to 500 000 deaths. )

Now I am more worried about getting the Flu (new types each year) if I was getting blood, as it would mean I must be sick and since the flu tends to kills the sick/old and/or young it would an immediate danger. Flu is not a higer risk form MSM as far as I know.

But that's just me, so i still feel that all MSM and Hetero's alike who are not in a stable monogamous relationship should be deferred for 12 months and have full STI screening before any donations. (I am also realistic that this would shut down the blood supply so that will not happen anytime soon).

floggg · 09-02-2015 09:03AM

skooterblue2 wrote: »

It is a very difficult one to call. If I was a doctor I wouldnt be willing to put my reputation on the line. I am waiting to hear back a verdict from a professional body.

Could you explain what you mean by this? In what way would a doctor be putting their reputation on the line?

floggg · 09-02-2015 09:04AM

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Both we were quoted in the Irish times. I dont have the Irish HIV figures at hand I will get onto the CSO tomorrow, I would Imagine it would be about 300 annually, undiagnoised among Drug addicts and the homeless? who knows. I would say that 300 is either gay people who are relatively well off and regularily visiting their GP. This number is rising in the gay community and because of cheap heroin coming from an unpoliced Afghanistan and nobody seems to be policing the "Kurdistan" region except the Turks.

Donation? I havent a clue...... Unit are used of a range of things...... cancer patients, dialsys patients, haemophiliac need clotting agents, major surgery like Complete Hip Arthoplasty, transplant patients, open heart surgery, then you have people with problems with bone marrow in the femour.. car accidents..... the list goes on and on. Blood donations are like air the numbers are nt important until the supply affects you.

All 300 are wealthy gay men?

A fan of unsubstantiated and baseless generalisations, are we?

Kurtosis · 09-02-2015 11:21AM

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Sorry yes that is true you are right on the extra 1 added to 1 in 15m.
It is not a valuable contribution if after taking, documenting , test and transporting the sample it is found to be contaminated. think of the cost of testing? time taken and resources and personel against the cost of destruction.

All donated units are tested anyway. What would the scale of infected units that have to be destroyed have to be to outweigh the benefit of these additional donations?

As you say:

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Irish blood is free? no, its not. it is high quality and desirable products. this is due to strict regulation and honest doners.

Given this, I am sure units which are surplus to requirements would be highly in demand in other jurisdictions providing a market for this blood.

Also, this may also result in less importation of blood to meet demand from other jurisdictions which may have different deferral periods/rules around donation and use of more strictly regulated and screened blood from Irish donors.

fran17 · 09-02-2015 06:12PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Go actually read what MSM is because you don't seem to have a clue what you are talking about

Well there's all my questions answered...Its pretty simple Joey,if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck,then its a duck.

efb · 09-02-2015 07:31PM

http://iti.ms/1xZhc68

Annasopra · 09-02-2015 08:46PM

fran17 wrote: »

Well there's all my questions answered...Its pretty simple Joey,if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck,then its a duck.

Yep. You were continuously throwing out inaccurate figures because of a lack of understanding of what msm means.

skooterblue2 · 10-02-2015 12:34AM

jimdublin15 wrote: »

`

Thank you for clarifying that as the post you had seemed very much like it make that link between Heroin and Gays and PWID and HIV. And I do know how heroin is made and transported, again my reason for question was your post was it seemed very much to link it to being cheaper heroin vs other heron on the market and the gay population. But you have clarified that you did not mean that suggestion.

The technology is quite new and I don't trust the IBTS to have it or use it correctly.
(As said before no proof yet just my own feeling)

My conclusion is based on actually data regarding the number of "new" infections diagnosed, and reports from the HSE. This new number is simply stable in the overall, even in %.

- How do you get a 10% increase in new HIV infections per year ?

HSE reports 300 - 400 case per year 2003 - 2013 (peak in 2003 at 401 and 2008 at 404)
Overall population size over the same time frame grew according to the census:

Year Population %Change
2011 4.58m +7.4
2006 4.24m +8.1
2002 3.92m +8.2

- I really don’t see how do you get 10% increase of new HIV cases per year?

Now it is true that the number of PLHIV (people living with HIV) (under treatment) are living now near normal life spans so we would or may expect an increase of PLHIV total in the population instead of dying like they did in the 80's/90's.
AIDSMAP & WHO. However that is a different discussion I think, as they would not be donating blood anytime soon. MSM or otherwise.

As said in my last post 2013 HSE report shows overtime more may have been diagnosed but it did not track migration and death so a HSE study of the number of people engaged in HIV in care in Ireland in 2009/2010 found that 3,254 patients accessed HIV outpatient care in six centers in Ireland over a 12 month period " This is good to know as PLHIV would need to visit outpatient care every 3/6 months for bloods and drugs.

Problem with that is we have new infections each year, to be honest I don't see or have seen data linking it to MSM. I mean each year we have new flu types and the media do a big hype about it (WHO website reports: Worldwide, these annual epidemics are estimated to result in about 3 to 5 million cases of severe illness, and about 250 000 to 500 000 deaths. )

Now I am more worried about getting the Flu (new types each year) if I was getting blood, as it would mean I must be sick and since the flu tends to kills the sick/old and/or young it would an immediate danger. Flu is not a higer risk form MSM as far as I know.

But that's just me, so i still feel that all MSM and Hetero's alike who are not in a stable monogamous relationship should be deferred for 12 months and have full STI screening before any donations. (I am also realistic that this would shut down the blood supply so that will not happen anytime soon).

Apologies (The increased volume of product of heroin and decreased cost of Production) AND increased HiV number is the gay community is driving up the Overall HIV number. The heroin facts were not intended for you personally, not everyone is au fait with what is really going on Afghanistan. (once met a woman who though Saddam always the West enemy). I think the Gay HIV numbers is a seperate issue to the intaventeous injecting heroin Addicts one. As in I imagine there is little or no intersection. I was so naive when the invasion happened I would have though there would have been a strategy to napalm all the poppy fields after a hearts and minds campaign.

I think the flu is a seperate issue and it just sweeps usually people who are older and weaker or in vunerable conditions. I think you are asked not to donate if you are having flu like symptoms. The flu comes and it is tough to avoid, between work and social interaction, you might as well just get it over with ASAP.

Well AIDS at the Start was between an 8 month and a 24 month life expectancy. Now we have people living 25 years with AIDS/HIV after inital infection. that is like a cumlative effect on the PLHIV. Apologies stats were done at 4AM with no calculator. I was trying to remember previous stats I heard.

skooterblue2 · 10-02-2015 12:44AM

floggg wrote: »

Could you explain what you mean by this? In what way would a doctor be putting their reputation on the line?

Ask a doctor will this a 100% cure me? they will answer we it has been shown to work. Ask an engineer is this a garunteed reason they will always leave a space to back ut of. Please research the Vacinations cause Autism story. Remember the Doctor that backed that case? he was struck off. Remember the Doctors that vindicated Dr Michael Neary? They were struck off. You would want to be very sure of what you are talking about in a professional capacity (court/medical journal) in case you find yourself being reviewed by a professional body. 4-9 years of college down the drain, cannot get re-employed, cannot get medical insurance.... I would be very slow to back something new. My attitude is give it to Johnny over there first and see what happens to him and then decide.

I doubt anyone makes a major purchase without a review from a credible body.

Nodin · 10-02-2015 12:47AM

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Ask a doctor will this a 100% cure me? they will answer we it has been shown to work. Ask an engineer is this a garunteed reason they will always leave a space to back ut of. Please research the Vacinations cause Autism story. Remember the Doctor that backed that case? he was struck off. Remember the Doctors that vindicated Dr Michael Neary? They were struck off. You would want to be very sure of what you are talking about in a professional capacity (court/medical journal) in case you find yourself being reviewed by a professional body. 4-9 years of college down the drain, cannot get re-employed, cannot get medical insurance.... I would be very slow to back something new. My attitude is give it to Johnny over there first and see what happens to him and then decide.

I doubt anyone makes a major purchase without a review from a credible body.

And who might be employed by this "credible body" to determine the safety/worthiness of a medical product?

skooterblue2 · 10-02-2015 12:50AM

floggg wrote: »

All 300 are wealthy gay men?

I never said wealthy but in this day and age if you can take time off and have the means to visit your GP you are doing well. Many people are caught inbetween private health insurance and Medical cards with no cover. May homeless people have other priorities other than visiting their GP ..... so yes if you have medical cover and time to visit your GP regularily you are doing well. Many Dont

Leo Again

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