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Leo Again

fran17

Now that we have all taken time to get over the fact that Leo Varadkar is only 36,this story caught my attention today.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0125/675441-blood-donations/

A 2011 UK statistical and epidemiological review of blood service policy concluded that the introduction of blood from sexually active gay men into the system could increase the risk of HIV contaminating the blood stock by up to 500%.Leo Varadkar,our gay minister for health,wishes to reduce our laws governing against this.Is this anything more than party pump politics?

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efb

skooterblue2 wrote: »

It is not just Gay men who are not suitable to donate...... its a range of people (visiting sub Sahara africa, intravenous Drugs, and others). This is what has kept the Irish Blood Transfusion Service blood of the highest quality.

Then there is the cost of destruction of contaminated blood. Not all donations are suitable. hypothetically if there is a lack of fibrinogen in the blood would you accept the sample? That is not valid sample. That has to be destroyed. Nothing wrong with it, just doesnt meet the requirements. So people with a lack of fibrinogen must accept that they arent valid doner through no fault of thier own. I have never heard one of them say "I feel discriminated against".

I also said that the HIV numbers are growing in the gay community. There has been a steady growth over the last 10 years. Its just not a suitable pool to draw from (x33 times most likely).

There is also the cost of destuction. I have no idea how much a unit is to transport to France and be incinerated but a litre and a half container of sharps is €80. Blood is a much more volatile liquid to transport and smells awful if it burst. Free blood doesnt come cheap.

Why do they buy blood off countries that don't have the ban in place? This means this blood is ALREADY in the Irish system

skooterblue2

penguin88 wrote: »

No it wouldn't, viewed in the context of the 2010's (i.e. the present day), as you even say yourself int he same paragraph, there have been major advances in HIV/AIDS treatment and public health information as well as screening and testing. I also don't appreciate the condescension.

As for rising HIV numbers in the Gay population, this is pretty irrelevant. The numbers one should be looking at are diagnoses of HIV in men who have ever had sex with men but not in the last 12 months.

It is not just Gay men who are not suitable to donate...... its a range of people (visiting sub Sahara africa, intravenous Drugs, and others). This is what has kept the Irish Blood Transfusion Service blood of the highest quality.

Then there is the cost of destruction of contaminated blood. Not all donations are suitable. hypothetically if there is a lack of fibrinogen in the blood would you accept the sample? That is not valid sample. That has to be destroyed. Nothing wrong with it, just doesnt meet the requirements. So people with a lack of fibrinogen must accept that they arent valid doner through no fault of thier own. I have never heard one of them say "I feel discriminated against".

I also said that the HIV numbers are growing in the gay community. There has been a steady growth over the last 10 years. Its just not a suitable pool to draw from (x33 times most likely).

There is also the cost of destuction. I have no idea how much a unit is to transport to France and be incinerated but a litre and a half container of sharps is €80. Blood is a much more volatile liquid to transport and smells awful if it burst. Free blood doesnt come cheap.

Kurtosis

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Yes it would, viewed in the context of the 1980's and the HIV rising numbers in the Gay population. You probably werent even born then or have never heard the stories of what it was like. The Ebola crisis was nothing compared to what was going on back then. HIV/AIDS treatments and public health information have comesuch a long way but they havent come close to finding a way to eradicate it or or even to contain it like TB, Leprosy and small pox.

No it wouldn't, viewed in the context of the 2010's (i.e. the present day), as you even say yourself int he same paragraph, there have been major advances in HIV/AIDS treatment and public health information as well as screening and testing. I also don't appreciate the condescension.

As for rising HIV numbers in the Gay population, this is pretty irrelevant. The numbers one should be looking at are diagnoses of HIV in men who have ever had sex with men but not in the last 12 months.

skooterblue2

floggg wrote: »

Again, how does this explain risk to doctors from this decision?

The decision is one for the minister to make. Doctors will have no say or control over the blood that they receive, and have no duty of care to personally test it or monitor the supply.

The only person whose reputation is on the line is Leo's, and there is little risk to him if he makes the decision based on all available evidence and after consulting appropriate experts and taking their views on board.

Some Doctor in Authority will have to sign new codes of practices. Doctors have their own representive bodies. They might be small but if doctors bodies refuse to adopt the practices that could be problematic. Speaking of public representation has anyone noticed how Siptu have been so quite on the Water Charges recently.

floggg

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Yes it would, viewed in the context of the 1980's and the HIV rising numbers in the Gay population. You probably werent even born then or have never heard the stories of what it was like. The Ebola crisis was nothing compared to what was going on back then. HIV/AIDS treatments and public health information have comesuch a long way but they havent come close to finding a way to eradicate it or or even to contain it like TB, Leprosy and small pox.

There is no way Dr. Andrew Wakefield came up with that concept on his own. You will find it was lawyer friend convinved him to back the reseach and endorse it. The solicitor just saw big Pharma making loads of money and felt it was right to test the water.

Tell us, how did AIDS Start again? And why are you refusing to explain your own statements?

skooterblue2

penguin88 wrote: »

I don't think this change in policy could seriously be considered a "radical advance".

Actually, Andrew Wakefield was the doctor whose discredited research linked autism to vaccines.

Yes it would, viewed in the context of the 1980's and the HIV rising numbers in the Gay population. You probably werent even born then or have never heard the stories of what it was like. The Ebola crisis was nothing compared to what was going on back then. HIV/AIDS treatments and public health information have comesuch a long way but they havent come close to finding a way to eradicate it or or even to contain it like TB, Leprosy and small pox.

There is no way Dr. Andrew Wakefield came up with that concept on his own. You will find it was lawyer friend convinved him to back the reseach and endorse it. The solicitor just saw big Pharma making loads of money and felt it was right to test the water.

skooterblue2

mikhail wrote: »

I like to use air-quotes a lot when talking about him (see changes above). Quite a few people are dead as a result of his bull**** study.

I actually had wanted to explore the area of the link between Vaccines and Autism in the light of gulf war Vets before I read the background. It was all just a get rich quick scheme by him. After I read the study (if you can call it that), it was fraught with problems. The sample was tiny, just 11 kids and there was a pending law suit against the pharma companies afterwards.

But it filtered into modern Urban legend and it is still a bone of contention even though they have removed the mercury from the MMR vaccine.

floggg

skooterblue2 wrote: »

I am talking about radical advances. It takes 10 years for a concept (idea from a herbalist, biomedical engineer, biologist, Pharmacist) to go through research, development, Alpha testing, Beta Testing, Documentation, building a purpose factory and plant and marketing the product. At any time during that 10 years the product can fail and be consigned to the archives.... as a good idea but not suitable for the market .. yet or plain failure.

Remember the MS drug Tysabari? from Elan. I saw that years ago before it came on the market and I saw it failing and Elan putting more money into it (with no money being earned) maybe three times being rejected by the FDA. I knew they had a great product because anyone one else would have shelved it. Then when it worked it was a winner but could onlybe prescribed on its own, without any other MS drug. That is a success.

Remember Amgen had a plant all ready to go in Cork and the two drugs failed at the last minute? They had done the ground work in Cork and were awaiting results from the beta testing and both drugs failed. Guys had given up permanent pensionable jobs to go work for these people, some people never got back into the industry.

Hence if your reputation is being tied to product you would want to be very certain of the outcome. Everyone remembers Pasteur, Salk and Wakefield ..... no one remembers the guy who said Autism comes from Vaccines. Medicine is a high risk investment. One accident and/or a product recall and your renouned reputation is gone.

As for medicine we are at the end of understanding of most anatomical things, with the exception to the DNA identifiers and Neurology. We probably arent going to shave less than a fifth of a second of the 100 meters in the next 50 years. Genetic engineering isnt nearly as close as we think and what is coming out of the labs as a finished good isnt encouraging.

Short answer: Backing medical advances can make you very rich very quick on the down side everything you worked so hard to build up over a life time could be gone just as quick.

Again, how does this explain risk to doctors from this decision?

The decision is one for the minister to make. Doctors will have no say or control over the blood that they receive, and have no duty of care to personally test it or monitor the supply.

The only person whose reputation is on the line is Leo's, and there is little risk to him if he makes the decision based on all available evidence and after consulting appropriate experts and taking their views on board.

mikhail

penguin88 wrote: »

Actually, Andrew Wakefield was the 'doctor' whose discredited 'research' linked autism to vaccines.

I like to use air-quotes a lot when talking about him (see changes above). Quite a few people are dead as a result of his bull**** study.

Kurtosis

skooterblue2 wrote: »

I am talking about radical advances.

I don't think this change in policy could seriously be considered a "radical advance".

Hence if your reputation is being tied to product you would want to be very certain of the outcome. Everyone remembers Pasteur, Salk and Wakefield ..... no one remembers the guy who said Autism comes from Vaccines.

Actually, Andrew Wakefield was the doctor whose discredited research linked autism to vaccines.

skooterblue2

Nodin wrote: »

But according to you Doctors would be putting their reputations on the line testifying as to the propriety of medical products.....why then do they work in that very field?

I am talking about radical advances. It takes 10 years for a concept (idea from a herbalist, biomedical engineer, biologist, Pharmacist) to go through research, development, Alpha testing, Beta Testing, Documentation, building a purpose factory and plant and marketing the product. At any time during that 10 years the product can fail and be consigned to the archives.... as a good idea but not suitable for the market .. yet or plain failure.

Remember the MS drug Tysabari? from Elan. I saw that years ago before it came on the market and I saw it failing and Elan putting more money into it (with no money being earned) maybe three times being rejected by the FDA. I knew they had a great product because anyone one else would have shelved it. Then when it worked it was a winner but could onlybe prescribed on its own, without any other MS drug. That is a success.

Remember Amgen had a plant all ready to go in Cork and the two drugs failed at the last minute? They had done the ground work in Cork and were awaiting results from the beta testing and both drugs failed. Guys had given up permanent pensionable jobs to go work for these people, some people never got back into the industry.

Hence if your reputation is being tied to product you would want to be very certain of the outcome. Everyone remembers Pasteur, Salk and Wakefield ..... no one remembers the guy who said Autism comes from Vaccines. Medicine is a high risk investment. One accident and/or a product recall and your renouned reputation is gone.

As for medicine we are at the end of understanding of most anatomical things, with the exception to the DNA identifiers and Neurology. We probably arent going to shave less than a fifth of a second of the 100 meters in the next 50 years. Genetic engineering isnt nearly as close as we think and what is coming out of the labs as a finished good isnt encouraging.

Short answer: Backing medical advances can make you very rich very quick on the down side everything you worked so hard to build up over a life time could be gone just as quick.

Annasopra

skooterblue2 wrote: »

my comment were about the cost of GP visits (circa 50-70 euro a time) if not covered by health insurance or medical cards. No comment about testing. You do know what they say about assuming things?

And a test can be accessed free!

Nodin

skooterblue2 wrote: »

I never said wealthy but in this day and age if you can take time off and have the means to visit your GP you are doing well. Many people are caught inbetween private health insurance and Medical cards with no cover. May homeless people have other priorities other than visiting their GP ..... so yes if you have medical cover and time to visit your GP regularily you are doing well. Many Dont

That confused bit of nonsense doesn't really make much sense. Again - what basis have you for your assertion about 300 gay men?

Good question the HPVA (formerly the Irish Medicines Board), has many different
functions. Some specialise in Vetinary medicine, some in human medicines and
Medical devicesand there are other parts to the regulation body.

My
former lecturer was an advisor to them. He is employed in a large hospital and
responsible for purchasing medical devices as well. Usually who is ever
associated with prescribing and validiating the medicine/medical device. Could
be anyone from Doctor, Pharmacist medical engineers staticians and Vets
depending on the product. The FDA are a more cautious organisation but the TUV
are a more through on investigations and audits. My lecturer said he first thing
he wanted to know about a product was not what it did but did it have
acreditation and which organisation had already using it for 12 months. then he
wanted to hear about the product itself. Just covering his own ass.

But according to you Doctors would be putting their reputations on the line testifying as to the propriety of medical products.....why then do they work in that very field?

skooterblue2

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Plenty of free testing out of hours so your assumptions dont hold up at all.

my comment were about the cost of GP visits (circa 50-70 euro a time) if not covered by health insurance or medical cards. No comment about testing. You do know what they say about assuming things?

skooterblue2

floggg wrote: »

Sorry, relatively well off.

Your reference to means is therefore rather bizarre (at best).

I think the operative word in the comment is relative. Relative to the poor souls on heroin, homeless, crippled with other mental health issues..... its relatively better off.

Annasopra

skooterblue2 wrote: »

I never said wealthy but in this day and age if you can take time off and have the means to visit your GP you are doing well. Many people are caught inbetween private health insurance and Medical cards with no cover. May homeless people have other priorities other than visiting their GP ..... so yes if you have medical cover and time to visit your GP regularily you are doing well. Many Dont

Plenty of free testing out of hours so your assumptions dont hold up at all.

floggg

skooterblue2 wrote: »

I never said wealthy but in this day and age if you can take time off and have the means to visit your GP you are doing well. Many people are caught inbetween private health insurance and Medical cards with no cover. May homeless people have other priorities other than visiting their GP ..... so yes if you have medical cover and time to visit your GP regularily you are doing well. Many Dont

Sorry, relatively well off.

As far as I know a private STD screening costs 100 euro. Not exactly breaking the bank.

In any event, there is plenty of free testing available (including out of office hours).

Your reference to means is therefore rather bizarre (at best).

Care to tell us about MK-NAOMI, the origin of HIV/AIDS and Agenda 21?

skooterblue2

Nodin wrote: »

And who might be employed by this "credible body" to determine the safety/worthiness of a medical product?

Good question the HPVA (formerly the Irish Medicines Board), has many different functions. Some specialise in Vetinary medicine, some in human medicines and Medical devicesand there are other parts to the regulation body.

My former lecturer was an advisor to them. He is employed in a large hospital and responsible for purchasing medical devices as well. Usually who is ever associated with prescribing and validiating the medicine/medical device. Could be anyone from Doctor, Pharmacist medical engineers staticians and Vets depending on the product. The FDA are a more cautious organisation but the TUV are a more through on investigations and audits. My lecturer said he first thing he wanted to know about a product was not what it did but did it have acreditation and which organisation had already using it for 12 months. then he wanted to hear about the product itself. Just covering his own ass.

floggg

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Ask a doctor will this a 100% cure me? they will answer we it has been shown to work. Ask an engineer is this a garunteed reason they will always leave a space to back ut of. Please research the Vacinations cause Autism story. Remember the Doctor that backed that case? he was struck off. Remember the Doctors that vindicated Dr Michael Neary? They were struck off. You would want to be very sure of what you are talking about in a professional capacity (court/medical journal) in case you find yourself being reviewed by a professional body. 4-9 years of college down the drain, cannot get re-employed, cannot get medical insurance.... I would be very slow to back something new. My attitude is give it to Johnny over there first and see what happens to him and then decide.

I doubt anyone makes a major purchase without a review from a credible body.

Individual doctors aren't being asked to make this decision.

Unless I am gravely mistaken, Hospitals use the blood supplied to them, and the doctors and other medical staff who use it and blood products do not have any say, input or control over the blood/blood products provided to them.

There is no scope for any claims or malpractice claims against doctors arising from this decision.

It is a policy decision, not something they have any control over.

skooterblue2

floggg wrote: »

All 300 are wealthy gay men?

I never said wealthy but in this day and age if you can take time off and have the means to visit your GP you are doing well. Many people are caught inbetween private health insurance and Medical cards with no cover. May homeless people have other priorities other than visiting their GP ..... so yes if you have medical cover and time to visit your GP regularily you are doing well. Many Dont

Nodin

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Ask a doctor will this a 100% cure me? they will answer we it has been shown to work. Ask an engineer is this a garunteed reason they will always leave a space to back ut of. Please research the Vacinations cause Autism story. Remember the Doctor that backed that case? he was struck off. Remember the Doctors that vindicated Dr Michael Neary? They were struck off. You would want to be very sure of what you are talking about in a professional capacity (court/medical journal) in case you find yourself being reviewed by a professional body. 4-9 years of college down the drain, cannot get re-employed, cannot get medical insurance.... I would be very slow to back something new. My attitude is give it to Johnny over there first and see what happens to him and then decide.

I doubt anyone makes a major purchase without a review from a credible body.

And who might be employed by this "credible body" to determine the safety/worthiness of a medical product?

skooterblue2

floggg wrote: »

Could you explain what you mean by this? In what way would a doctor be putting their reputation on the line?

Ask a doctor will this a 100% cure me? they will answer we it has been shown to work. Ask an engineer is this a garunteed reason they will always leave a space to back ut of. Please research the Vacinations cause Autism story. Remember the Doctor that backed that case? he was struck off. Remember the Doctors that vindicated Dr Michael Neary? They were struck off. You would want to be very sure of what you are talking about in a professional capacity (court/medical journal) in case you find yourself being reviewed by a professional body. 4-9 years of college down the drain, cannot get re-employed, cannot get medical insurance.... I would be very slow to back something new. My attitude is give it to Johnny over there first and see what happens to him and then decide.

I doubt anyone makes a major purchase without a review from a credible body.

skooterblue2

jimdublin15 wrote: »

`

Thank you for clarifying that as the post you had seemed very much like it make that link between Heroin and Gays and PWID and HIV. And I do know how heroin is made and transported, again my reason for question was your post was it seemed very much to link it to being cheaper heroin vs other heron on the market and the gay population. But you have clarified that you did not mean that suggestion.

The technology is quite new and I don't trust the IBTS to have it or use it correctly.
(As said before no proof yet just my own feeling)

My conclusion is based on actually data regarding the number of "new" infections diagnosed, and reports from the HSE. This new number is simply stable in the overall, even in %.

- How do you get a 10% increase in new HIV infections per year ?

HSE reports 300 - 400 case per year 2003 - 2013 (peak in 2003 at 401 and 2008 at 404)
Overall population size over the same time frame grew according to the census:

Year Population %Change
2011 4.58m +7.4
2006 4.24m +8.1
2002 3.92m +8.2

- I really don’t see how do you get 10% increase of new HIV cases per year?

Now it is true that the number of PLHIV (people living with HIV) (under treatment) are living now near normal life spans so we would or may expect an increase of PLHIV total in the population instead of dying like they did in the 80's/90's.
AIDSMAP & WHO. However that is a different discussion I think, as they would not be donating blood anytime soon. MSM or otherwise.

As said in my last post 2013 HSE report shows overtime more may have been diagnosed but it did not track migration and death so a HSE study of the number of people engaged in HIV in care in Ireland in 2009/2010 found that 3,254 patients accessed HIV outpatient care in six centers in Ireland over a 12 month period " This is good to know as PLHIV would need to visit outpatient care every 3/6 months for bloods and drugs.

Problem with that is we have new infections each year, to be honest I don't see or have seen data linking it to MSM. I mean each year we have new flu types and the media do a big hype about it (WHO website reports: Worldwide, these annual epidemics are estimated to result in about 3 to 5 million cases of severe illness, and about 250 000 to 500 000 deaths. )

Now I am more worried about getting the Flu (new types each year) if I was getting blood, as it would mean I must be sick and since the flu tends to kills the sick/old and/or young it would an immediate danger. Flu is not a higer risk form MSM as far as I know.

But that's just me, so i still feel that all MSM and Hetero's alike who are not in a stable monogamous relationship should be deferred for 12 months and have full STI screening before any donations. (I am also realistic that this would shut down the blood supply so that will not happen anytime soon).

Apologies (The increased volume of product of heroin and decreased cost of Production) AND increased HiV number is the gay community is driving up the Overall HIV number. The heroin facts were not intended for you personally, not everyone is au fait with what is really going on Afghanistan. (once met a woman who though Saddam always the West enemy). I think the Gay HIV numbers is a seperate issue to the intaventeous injecting heroin Addicts one. As in I imagine there is little or no intersection. I was so naive when the invasion happened I would have though there would have been a strategy to napalm all the poppy fields after a hearts and minds campaign.

I think the flu is a seperate issue and it just sweeps usually people who are older and weaker or in vunerable conditions. I think you are asked not to donate if you are having flu like symptoms. The flu comes and it is tough to avoid, between work and social interaction, you might as well just get it over with ASAP.

Well AIDS at the Start was between an 8 month and a 24 month life expectancy. Now we have people living 25 years with AIDS/HIV after inital infection. that is like a cumlative effect on the PLHIV. Apologies stats were done at 4AM with no calculator. I was trying to remember previous stats I heard.

Annasopra

fran17 wrote: »

Well there's all my questions answered...Its pretty simple Joey,if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck,then its a duck.

Yep. You were continuously throwing out inaccurate figures because of a lack of understanding of what msm means.

efb

http://iti.ms/1xZhc68

fran17

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Go actually read what MSM is because you don't seem to have a clue what you are talking about

Well there's all my questions answered...Its pretty simple Joey,if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck,then its a duck.

Kurtosis

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Sorry yes that is true you are right on the extra 1 added to 1 in 15m.
It is not a valuable contribution if after taking, documenting , test and transporting the sample it is found to be contaminated. think of the cost of testing? time taken and resources and personel against the cost of destruction.

All donated units are tested anyway. What would the scale of infected units that have to be destroyed have to be to outweigh the benefit of these additional donations?

As you say:

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Irish blood is free? no, its not. it is high quality and desirable products. this is due to strict regulation and honest doners.

Given this, I am sure units which are surplus to requirements would be highly in demand in other jurisdictions providing a market for this blood.

Also, this may also result in less importation of blood to meet demand from other jurisdictions which may have different deferral periods/rules around donation and use of more strictly regulated and screened blood from Irish donors.

floggg

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Both we were quoted in the Irish times. I dont have the Irish HIV figures at hand I will get onto the CSO tomorrow, I would Imagine it would be about 300 annually, undiagnoised among Drug addicts and the homeless? who knows. I would say that 300 is either gay people who are relatively well off and regularily visiting their GP. This number is rising in the gay community and because of cheap heroin coming from an unpoliced Afghanistan and nobody seems to be policing the "Kurdistan" region except the Turks.

Donation? I havent a clue...... Unit are used of a range of things...... cancer patients, dialsys patients, haemophiliac need clotting agents, major surgery like Complete Hip Arthoplasty, transplant patients, open heart surgery, then you have people with problems with bone marrow in the femour.. car accidents..... the list goes on and on. Blood donations are like air the numbers are nt important until the supply affects you.

All 300 are wealthy gay men?

A fan of unsubstantiated and baseless generalisations, are we?

floggg

skooterblue2 wrote: »

It is a very difficult one to call. If I was a doctor I wouldnt be willing to put my reputation on the line. I am waiting to hear back a verdict from a professional body.

Could you explain what you mean by this? In what way would a doctor be putting their reputation on the line?

jimdublin15

skooterblue2 wrote: »

First I would like to say I wasnt trying to associate gay life style with drugs.
The Poppy is grown in Afghanistan and NATO forces arent interfereing Poppy cultivation. Saddam Hussein (like him or not), backed by the US used to harrass the Kurds transporting heroin to Turkey and onto Europe from the 70's to the 90's. No one in the area likes the Kurds. They are the worlds largest stateless nation.
.

Thank you for clarifying that as the post you had seemed very much like it make that link between Heroin and Gays and PWID and HIV. And I do know how heroin is made and transported, again my reason for question was your post was it seemed very much to link it to being cheaper heroin vs other heron on the market and the gay population. But you have clarified that you did not mean that suggestion.

skooterblue2 wrote: »

This sterile blood technology is still in its infancy.

The technology is quite new and I don't trust the IBTS to have it or use it correctly.
(As said before no proof yet just my own feeling)

skooterblue2 wrote: »

I think you conclusion is wrong that the number is stable. The total number is growing about 10% per year at best. It is not total number of cases. It is total number of new cases. This suggest the numbers are accelerating
People are now living longer, this is having a cumulative effect

My conclusion is based on actually data regarding the number of "new" infections diagnosed, and reports from the HSE. This new number is simply stable in the overall, even in %.

- How do you get a 10% increase in new HIV infections per year ?

HSE reports 300 - 400 case per year 2003 - 2013 (peak in 2003 at 401 and 2008 at 404)
Overall population size over the same time frame grew according to the census:

Year Population %Change
2011 4.58m +7.4
2006 4.24m +8.1
2002 3.92m +8.2

- I really don’t see how do you get 10% increase of new HIV cases per year?

Now it is true that the number of PLHIV (people living with HIV) (under treatment) are living now near normal life spans so we would or may expect an increase of PLHIV total in the population instead of dying like they did in the 80's/90's.
AIDSMAP & WHO. However that is a different discussion I think, as they would not be donating blood anytime soon. MSM or otherwise.

As said in my last post 2013 HSE report shows overtime more may have been diagnosed but it did not track migration and death so a HSE study of the number of people engaged in HIV in care in Ireland in 2009/2010 found that 3,254 patients accessed HIV outpatient care in six centers in Ireland over a 12 month period " This is good to know as PLHIV would need to visit outpatient care every 3/6 months for bloods and drugs.

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Also it is about new varients of other disease and new infections according to the IBTS.

Problem with that is we have new infections each year, to be honest I don't see or have seen data linking it to MSM. I mean each year we have new flu types and the media do a big hype about it (WHO website reports: Worldwide, these annual epidemics are estimated to result in about 3 to 5 million cases of severe illness, and about 250 000 to 500 000 deaths. )

Now I am more worried about getting the Flu (new types each year) if I was getting blood, as it would mean I must be sick and since the flu tends to kills the sick/old and/or young it would an immediate danger. Flu is not a higer risk form MSM as far as I know.

But that's just me, so i still feel that all MSM and Hetero's alike who are not in a stable monogamous relationship should be deferred for 12 months and have full STI screening before any donations. (I am also realistic that this would shut down the blood supply so that will not happen anytime soon).