Proposed Public sector pay rises

BoJack Horseman

I think when the CSO do those assessments, they try to compare across similar roles.

mjv2ydratu679c

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I think when the CSO do those assessments, they try to compare across similar roles.

Bingo - will fall on deaf ears here though.

Bob24

Rightwing wrote: »

Whilst these figures are somewhat flawed, (you'd need a comparison of say a bus driver in each sector) it does reveal that either (a) private sector is underpaid or (b) public sector is overpaid.

I'm a believer that the private sector is never underpaid, which leaves us with (a).

Or (c) the structure of their workforce is different (with less non qualified jobs)

I would say the services industry is having a massive downwards impact on the private sector average. There are hundred of thousands of people working in restaurants, convenience stores, supermarkets, hotels, petrol stations, etc who are all on very low wages. This type of job is much less represented in the public sector.

Now I am not saying there is no salary gap. But national averages who do not take the structure of the workforce into account cannot give any indication one way or another.

It is the same as saying Google employees are overpaid compared to McDonald's employees because the average salary in the company is much higher ... it is obviously flawed and the only way to compare is to look at the salary for lets say a web designer at Google and a web designer at McDonald's, or a guy making burgers at Google's canteen and a guy making burgers at McDonalds. The overall average has more to do with the fact that one company employs more web designers and the other employs more people making burgers.

LordNorbury

The worst thing that could be allowed to happen again in this country is a "partnership process" that is allowed to emerge again, that only includes in minority of workers in Irish society, and in particular, the minority who just happen to be public sector or semi state employees, with a tiny portion of the private sector represented at these kind of talks.

You have huge swaths of the Irish employment community, looking at these pay deals from the outside looking in. These people, who work in small business, or in our growing multinational base, have much lower, realistic expectations when it comes to pay increases, because unlike the public sector, the money for the pay increase has to be actually earned and accounted for, through higher profits or a productivity gain. For this reason alone, having these folks, and their contributions, inside pay talks would be a refreshing change.

For years, the unionised side of our economy, especially in the public sector, has obstructed change and improvement, and has withheld cooperation with change and improvement, until they were persuaded to do otherwise via a collective pay deal.

In the private sector, change and your ability to willingness to cooperation with change, is a core part of your basic job and your ability to p[perform to an adequate level within your basic job role.

We still have one part of our workforce left completely unaccountable for their ability to do their job or otherwise, completely unaccountable when it comes to sick leave, untouchable when it comes to job performance, and I argue that this has only continued to be so, because the process of collective pay negotiation in this country has basically been a closed shop that the majority of workers in this state have been kept out of.

So you have a situation now where norms now STILL exist within the public sector, that are alien to the majority who work in the private sector, norms such as automatic across the board increments, that are in no way whatsoever connected to personal performance, norms such as refusal to accept that continual change and modernisation is, or certainly ought to be, a core part of your job.

I'm all for well paid public servants that need to be properly remunerated to have efficient and highly effective public services, but the process of what we used to call "social partnership", needs to be completely deconstructed and a fresh canvas needs to be taken out before the Frankenstein creation we had last time around, can be let appear again.

But make no mistake about it, a Labour government desperate to be not wiped out completely at the next election, there is only one thing that they are concerning themselves with right now and that is getting maximum bums back on leather seats in Kildare Street and teachers, gardai, nurses, beancounters, all those connected to Labour via their unions, can be bribed with notions of pay increases if it supports that objective.

The ability to pay doesn't matter, we are already borrowing 8 billion Euro a year to pay these guys and the markets will lend us that right now, so another 1-2 billion Euro a year to get people paid off and Labour back into government, or maybe even just not completely wiped out at the next election, that is the mission.

Bob24

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I think when the CSO do those assessments, they try to compare across similar roles.

Joey Yellow Autograph wrote: »

Bingo - will fall on deaf ears here though.

According to this, they are just calculating a basic average of all public or private sector wages, not doing any role to role comparison:

"The CSO figures we read about this week are not weighted in any way to take account of the actual jobs that people do or their qualifications, educational attainment, age or any of the other factors that determine how much each of us gets paid"

chopper6

fliball123 wrote: »

A poster sent you a link showing PS are paid 50% on average, thats not even mentioning the myriad of reports that suggest the Ireland has one of the high paid public services in the OCED.

Every worker pays taxes and expect something in return not just to feather nest 300k workers and the ex workers for overpayment and for their pensions.

Take a worker for example me and my typical day and what I phucking have to pay in taxation. and not even bringing in the cost of services such as heat and light for phuck sake

I wake up in the morning in my bed within my house
Taxes paid - Stamp duty, property tax, VAT on my bed and mattress, duvet, sheets and pillows.

I decide to have a shower
Taxes paid - VAT on the electricity, shampoo and water charges

I go down and make make breakie toast and a coffee
Taxes paid - VAT on elecy, toaster and kettle and water charges

I leave the house and jump in the car to go to work
Taxes paid - Road tax, Carbon tax and VAT on petol, Vat on insurance, VRT on car, toll bridge and NCT

I arrive into work and work till lunch 9/10 hours
Tax paid - Income tax, Usc, PRSI

I drive home - See above

Make some dinner - See above for breakie

I watch some telly
See above for using elecy add in TV license

Also other service and bills that I need to pay for
Bin service/nessecities - used to be covered by general taxation
Creche fees
ESB
GAS
Food
Clothes
Mortgage


Now after all of this I still have to pay if I go to a doctor or hospital and worse still I get the pleasure of paying for the thousands that are on the dole to go aswell.

Now you tell me buddy am I over paying for services in this country

ans - PHUCK YES I AM

What about the fact that out of the 200billion in debt only 40billion (which may decrease as time goes on) is for the banks..who is to blame for the other 160 odd billion?


That does not include the fact that we are on the ledge for ridiculous pensions schemes for the PS

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/Irish_Economy/article_1025888_printer.shtml

have a quick look at this aswell
http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2014/09/01/public-sector-the-insider-story

Of course it ALL goes to PS workers with not one penny going elsewhere.



Maybe you should take your increasingly hysterical rants over to this forum:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=861

fliball123

chopper6 wrote: »

Of course it ALL goes to PS workers with not one penny going elsewhere.



Maybe you should take your increasingly hysterical rants over to this forum:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=861

a fair portion of it goes on it the majority of the rest goes to services which have been cut to shreds and on welfare which has also been cut to shreds..yet the ps seem to be the only ones who think that they should get pay rises above the increments that tare going on...

Why are you saying rant..its not a rant its a very reasonable question to ask Howlin and any one PS affilated where the hell is the money coming from to pay for pay rises

chopper6

fliball123 wrote: »

a fair portion of it goes on it the majority of the rest goes to services which have been cut to shreds and on welfare which has also been cut to shreds..yet the ps seem to be the only ones who think that they should get pay rises above the increments that tare going on...

Why are you saying rant..its not a rant its a very reasonable question to ask Howlin and any one PS affilated where the hell is the money coming from to pay for pay rises

Your understanding of economics is at a protozoan level...whats more you've been parroting this stuff for years.

Anybody would think you,uniquely are paying the PS wage bill out of your arse pocket.

fliball123

chopper6 wrote: »

Your understanding of economics is at a protozoan level...whats more you've been parroting this stuff for years.

Anybody would think you,uniquely are paying the PS wage bill out of your arse pocket.

Do enlighten me ... my understanding is this and only this ...Howlin is shatting on about payrises currently we borrow and we are in debt , this means a payrise to these 300k means taking more from my back pocket to pay it..Its that simple

Godge

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I think when the CSO do those assessments, they try to compare across similar roles.

Joey Yellow Autograph wrote: »

Bingo - will fall on deaf ears here though.

no they don't, it isn't even the most scientific. They take the information from the Household Budget Survey, relying on the general public to fill in the information without any help.

Godge

Bob24 wrote: »

The only attempt to make a fair comparison is this paragraph:

"Even when you adjust for qualifications, experience and length of service, the public sector workers still enjoy a significant pay premium over their private sector counterparts,” Ibec economist Fergal O’Brien said."

And unfortunately it is the only thing in the article that is not backed up by numbers.

Now if this is correct there is indeed and issue, but the rest of the article is comparing apples to oranges.

And the person making the statement is an IBEC economist who has a vested interest.

Godge

fliball123 wrote: »

A poster sent you a link showing PS are paid 50% on average, thats not even mentioning the myriad of reports that suggest the Ireland has one of the high paid public services in the OCED.

Every worker pays taxes and expect something in return not just to feather nest 300k workers and the ex workers for overpayment and for their pensions.

Take a worker for example me and my typical day and what I phucking have to pay in taxation. and not even bringing in the cost of services such as heat and light for phuck sake

I wake up in the morning in my bed within my house
Taxes paid - Stamp duty, property tax, VAT on my bed and mattress, duvet, sheets and pillows.

I decide to have a shower
Taxes paid - VAT on the electricity, shampoo and water charges

I go down and make make breakie toast and a coffee
Taxes paid - VAT on elecy, toaster and kettle and water charges

I leave the house and jump in the car to go to work
Taxes paid - Road tax, Carbon tax and VAT on petol, Vat on insurance, VRT on car, toll bridge and NCT

I arrive into work and work till lunch 9/10 hours
Tax paid - Income tax, Usc, PRSI

I drive home - See above

Make some dinner - See above for breakie

I watch some telly
See above for using elecy add in TV license

Also other service and bills that I need to pay for
Bin service/nessecities - used to be covered by general taxation
Creche fees
ESB
GAS
Food
Clothes
Mortgage


Now after all of this I still have to pay if I go to a doctor or hospital and worse still I get the pleasure of paying for the thousands that are on the dole to go aswell.

Now you tell me buddy am I over paying for services in this country

ans - PHUCK YES I AM

What about the fact that out of the 200billion in debt only 40billion (which may decrease as time goes on) is for the banks..who is to blame for the other 160 odd billion?


That does not include the fact that we are on the ledge for ridiculous pensions schemes for the PS

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/Irish_Economy/article_1025888_printer.shtml

have a quick look at this aswell
http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2014/09/01/public-sector-the-insider-story

No you aren't. The burden of income taxation on the average worker in Ireland is well below international standards.

One of the ironic things in speaking to people at average wage levels who have been working abroad in Europe is that they are very grateful to have Irish levels of taxation on average wages.

The higher paid get hammered here more than anywhere else.

chopper6

fliball123 wrote: »

Do enlighten me ... my understanding is this and only this ...Howlin is shatting on about payrises currently we borrow and we are in debt , this means a payrise to these 300k means taking more from my back pocket to pay it..Its that simple

Or did it ever occur to you that there are now more people paying from thier back pockets than there were a few years ago?

It's called an increase in employment and it's good news for public services as emergency measures are no longer needed and pay can be reinstated.

chopper6

Godge wrote: »

And the person making the statement is an IBEC economist who has a vested interest.

No..an IBEC statistician....even worse.

antoobrien

chopper6 wrote: »

It's called an increase in employment and it's good news for public services as emergency measures are no longer needed and pay can be reinstated.

We're 8bn in deficit, the emergency is far from over.

The only time we should consider reinstating PS pay is when we actually have extra money to spend.

chopper6

fliball123 wrote: »

Also other service and bills that I need to pay for
Bin service/nessecities - used to be covered by general taxation
Creche fees
ESB
GAS
Food
Clothes
Mortgage

Everything there is paid by you to the private sector.

Godge

antoobrien wrote: »

We're 8bn in deficit, the emergency is far from over.

The only time we should consider reinstating PS pay is when we actually have extra money to spend.

€5.3 bn in 2015, below the 3% target, money is available for tax cuts and for social welfare bonuses, why not public service pay?

jcon1913

chopper6 wrote: »

Or did it ever occur to you that there are now more people paying from thier back pockets than there were a few years ago?

It's called an increase in employment and it's good news for public services as emergency measures are no longer needed and pay can be reinstated.

I suppose you'll be telling us all that the overpaid public service are responsible for the increase in employment next. It's as fatuous an argument as ''we aren't as highly taxed here as in other countries. Lets tax people more'' rot that Godge comes out with.

Public sector paid too much - get that through your heads. Just because we don't march in Kildare Street doesnt mean we private sector workers arent watching this latest public service attempt to get back to the old norm. Which is - overpaid public sector. Got it now?

We as a country are paying people in secure pensionable jobs too much. More than other countries pay. Nothing in this thread convinces me otherwise.

And just because you say that public sector workers arent overpaid doesnt make it true.

jcon1913

Godge wrote: »

€5.3 bn in 2015, below the 3% target, money is available for tax cuts and for social welfare bonuses, why not public service pay?

Because PS are overpaid already. End of.

Dozen Wicked Words

jcon1913 wrote: »

Because PS are overpaid already. End of.

And just because you say that public sector workers are overpaid doesn't make it true.

Well this debating lark is easy.

Mardy Bum

jcon1913 wrote: »

Because PS are overpaid already. End of.

Let's see some data.
You do realise that new teachers wages have decreased by over 25% of what they were.
Are u angry at the clerical and admin workers getting paid 20 grand as well or the nurses on minimum wage more or less.

chopper6

jcon1913 wrote: »

I suppose you'll be telling us all that the overpaid public service are responsible for the increase in employment next. It's as fatuous an argument as ''we aren't as highly taxed here as in other countries. Lets tax people more'' rot that Godge comes out with.

Public sector paid too much - get that through your heads. Just because we don't march in Kildare Street doesnt mean we private sector workers arent watching this latest public service attempt to get back to the old norm. Which is - overpaid public sector. Got it now?

We as a country are paying people in secure pensionable jobs too much. More than other countries pay. Nothing in this thread convinces me otherwise.

And just because you say that public sector workers arent overpaid doesnt make it true.

They're hiring soon..maybe you should apply for one of the overpaid jobs and see what happens.

Rightwing

Bob24 wrote: »

Or (c) the structure of their workforce is different (with less non qualified jobs)

I would say the services industry is having a massive downwards impact on the private sector average. There are hundred of thousands of people working in restaurants, convenience stores, supermarkets, hotels, petrol stations, etc who are all on very low wages. This type of job is much less represented in the public sector.

Now I am not saying there is no salary gap. But national averages who do not take the structure of the workforce into account cannot give any indication one way or another.

It is the same as saying Google employees are overpaid compared to McDonald's employees because the average salary in the company is much higher ... it is obviously flawed and the only way to compare is to look at the salary for lets say a web designer at Google and a web designer at McDonald's, or a guy making burgers at Google's canteen and a guy making burgers at McDonalds. The overall average has more to do with the fact that one company employs more web designers and the other employs more people making burgers.

There's an element of truth in that, (although you'll probably find people in Mc with degrees which makes you question how good these degrees are these days, 6 a penny I'd suggest) but you won't find a case of a secretary leaving the public sector for the private sector, or a bus driver leaving for it either. That tells you all need to know.

Valmont

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

And just because you say that public sector workers are overpaid doesn't make it true.

When weekly public wages are nearly 50% higher than private weekly wages then, yes, I think we can conclusively say that the Irish 'public servants' are grossly overpaid. Especially when it is those very private sector workers being taxed to pay them in the first place. I personally cannot wait for the day we have a politician brave enough to take on these parasitic unions.

chopper6

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Let's see some data.
You do realise that new teachers wages have decreased by over 25% of what they were.
Are u angry at the clerical and admin workers getting paid 20 grand as well or the nurses on minimum wage more or less.

There's contract jobs going in my place paying 9 euro an hour..there's very few private sector jobs paying less

Uncle Ben

antoobrien wrote: »

We're 8bn in deficit, the emergency is far from over.

The only time we should consider reinstating PS pay is when we actually have extra money to spend.

Enda, the EU, the IMF and others are consistently telling us how much of a successful recovery we've made. If its good enough for them it's good enough for me. Pay up please. Election in a year's time and 300k votes for sale.

Rightwing

Valmont wrote: »

When weekly public wages are nearly 50% higher than private weekly wages then, yes, I think we can conclusively say that the Irish 'public servants' are grossly overpaid. Especially when it is those very private sector workers being taxed to pay them in the first place. I personally cannot wait for the day we have a politician brave enough to take on these parasitic unions.

Simply impossible. Too large a % of the population. That's why most Governments are overflowing with debt.

chopper6

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Let's see some data.
You do realise that new teachers wages have decreased by over 25% of what they were.
Are u angry at the clerical and admin workers getting paid 20 grand as well or the nurses on minimum wage more or less.

There's contract jobs going in my place paying 9 euro an hour..there's very few private sector jobs paying less

Gloomtastic!

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Let's see some data.
You do realise that new teachers wages have decreased by over 25% of what they were.

But aren't existing teachers still the third best paid in the OECD?

chopper6

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

But aren't existing teachers still the third best paid in the OECD?

So what?

This one of the most expensive countries to live in,due to the greed of certain elements in the private sector.