Proposed Public sector pay rises

Halloween Jack

barneystinson wrote: »

What tax do you think Apple should owe here?

Significantly more than they have paid. I believe the EU agree

Uncle Ben

Rightwing wrote: »

Sectors of it have it bad, small business owners up and down the country, I'd feel for them, paying outrageous rates etc.

I'd hazard a guess that small business owners are actually paying outrageous RENTS. Rates for small businesses in rural areas up and down the country are not the problem.

enricoh

chopper6 wrote: »

99.5% efficiency is a good thing.


You wouldn't see that in the private sector

true, its only taxpayers money anyway so dole it out. just cut the no. of ambulances, hours of home help etc to pay for it - simple!

Rightwing

Uncle Ben wrote: »

I'd hazard a guess that small business owners are actually paying outrageous RENTS. Rates for small businesses in rural areas up and down the country are not the problem.

Rents would be the problem in cities. 2010 rate figures:

Tralee stands at €81.18, which is considerably higher than in the major cities. In Dublin the ARV for 2010 is just €62.63. In Cork it is currently set at €73.28 and Limerick's ARV is €76.45.

chopper6

Rightwing wrote: »

Rents would be the problem in cities. 2010 rate figures:

Tralee stands at €81.18, which is considerably higher than in the major cities. In Dublin the ARV for 2010 is just €62.63. In Cork it is currently set at €73.28 and Limerick's ARV is €76.45.

Rates are going to be higher away from the capital..I would've thought that would be obvious.

enricoh

Uncle Ben wrote: »

I'd hazard a guess that small business owners are actually paying outrageous RENTS. Rates for small businesses in rural areas up and down the country are not the problem.

rates havent changed from the celtic tiger, i'm in meath and not 1% have they gone down. average takeover down a third for average small businesses i reckon. as for profit minimum a third. the boys in the council offices couldnt care less - its not gonna make it onto joe duffy.

barneystinson

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Significantly more than they have paid. I believe the EU agree

Oh dear.

If you know what they're doing, you'd realise we were never due that tax; the EU's problem is that we facilitated them in avoiding paying it in the countries where they were actually generating the profits by channelling it through Ireland and playing the different rules of different countries against each other and to their own advantage....

What we do get is lots of jobs and payroll taxes though.

Rightwing

chopper6 wrote: »

Rates are going to be higher away from the capital..I would've thought that would be obvious.

Well that to Uncle Ben.

ezra_pound

jcon1913 wrote: »

I suppose you'll be telling us all that the overpaid public service are responsible for the increase in employment next. It's as fatuous an argument as ''we aren't as highly taxed here as in other countries. Lets tax people more'' rot that Godge comes out with.

Public sector paid too much - get that through your heads. Just because we don't march in Kildare Street doesnt mean we private sector workers arent watching this latest public service attempt to get back to the old norm. Which is - overpaid public sector. Got it now?

We as a country are paying people in secure pensionable jobs too much. More than other countries pay. Nothing in this thread convinces me otherwise.

And just because you say that public sector workers arent overpaid doesnt make it true.

I don't think you understand the situation in the slightest. The issue is not that the PS are looking for a pay increase per se. Rather, the government would be breaking the law by not unwinding cuts which were imposed on PS employees which were not legally based but enacted by the oireachtas as emergency legislation. The emergency was a financial emergency. We could not raise funds on the markets and were also insolvent. That emergency is over and the cuts have no legal basis.

heyjude

I would regard any talk of across the board public sector pay rises as blatant electioneering. Why ? The Property Tax, which has only been in existence for just one full calendar year and the Water Tax which is due to start bringing in revenue this Spring, were, we were told introduced because it is necessary to balance the budget and in addition, in the case of the water tax, to provide the funds for necessary investments that the state was unable to fund.

So the property tax was to bring in necessary revenue to balance the budget and avoid the need for income tax increases, while the water tax was needed partially to fund investments that the state can't afford. Yet now having needed these two new taxes and with the budget still forecast to be several billions in deficit, is the government is now so awash with cash that it can afford to give pay increases :rolleyes: ???

If the government have enough to give pay rises to the public sector, then they didn't need the property or water taxes(or is the income from these new taxes going to be used to fund these wage increases). As for private sector comparisons, I wonder if any private sector company facing heavy losses, would even be considering universal pay rises for his staff ?

ezra_pound

fliball123 wrote: »

A poster sent you a link showing PS are paid 50% on average, thats not even mentioning the myriad of reports that suggest the Ireland has one of the high paid public services in the OCED.

Every worker pays taxes and expect something in return not just to feather nest 300k workers and the ex workers for overpayment and for their pensions.

Take a worker for example me and my typical day and what I phucking have to pay in taxation. and not even bringing in the cost of services such as heat and light for phuck sake

I wake up in the morning in my bed within my house
Taxes paid - Stamp duty, property tax, VAT on my bed and mattress, duvet, sheets and pillows.

I decide to have a shower
Taxes paid - VAT on the electricity, shampoo and water charges

I go down and make make breakie toast and a coffee
Taxes paid - VAT on elecy, toaster and kettle and water charges

I leave the house and jump in the car to go to work
Taxes paid - Road tax, Carbon tax and VAT on petol, Vat on insurance, VRT on car, toll bridge and NCT

I arrive into work and work till lunch 9/10 hours
Tax paid - Income tax, Usc, PRSI

I drive home - See above

Make some dinner - See above for breakie

I watch some telly
See above for using elecy add in TV license

Also other service and bills that I need to pay for
Bin service/nessecities - used to be covered by general taxation
Creche fees
ESB
GAS
Food
Clothes
Mortgage


Now after all of this I still have to pay if I go to a doctor or hospital and worse still I get the pleasure of paying for the thousands that are on the dole to go aswell.

Now you tell me buddy am I over paying for services in this country

ans - PHUCK YES I AM

What about the fact that out of the 200billion in debt only 40billion (which may decrease as time goes on) is for the banks..who is to blame for the other 160 odd billion?


That does not include the fact that we are on the ledge for ridiculous pensions schemes for the PS

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/Irish_Economy/article_1025888_printer.shtml

have a quick look at this aswell
http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2014/09/01/public-sector-the-insider-story

Shocking that you have to pay for food, electricity, gas, entertainment, bin collection and clothes after paying tax - and a mortgage!

If the state provided all of these for free from taxation the economy would boom for sure.

I'm sure the bastards in the PS don't have to! It's all their fault anyway.

You know there's a place called north Korea that you might prefer. It's very heavily guarded though because so many people want to live in that utopia.

jcon1913

ezra_pound wrote: »

I don't think you understand the situation in the slightest. The issue is not that the PS are looking for a pay increase per se. Rather, the government would be breaking the law by not unwinding cuts which were imposed on PS employees which were not legally based but enacted by the oireachtas as emergency legislation. The emergency was a financial emergency. We could not raise funds on the markets and were also insolvent. That emergency is over and the cuts have no legal basis.

The law needs to be changed. In the national interest. As Dessie OMalley was fond of saying. Have you even one shred of evidence that public sector workers are underpaid? Apart from that they used to be overpaid in the past and should be again?

ezra_pound

jcon1913 wrote: »

The law needs to be changed. In the national interest. As Dessie OMalley was fond of saying. Have you even one shred of evidence that public sector workers are underpaid? Apart from that they used to be overpaid in the past and should be again?

This is not the issue. The issue we are discussing is the impending reversal of emergency pay cuts.

ezra_pound

jcon1913 wrote: »

The law needs to be changed. In the national interest. As Dessie OMalley was fond of saying. Have you even one shred of evidence that public sector workers are underpaid? Apart from that they used to be overpaid in the past and should be again?

What law needs to be changed though? Contact law and the ability to enforce a binding contract?

jcon1913

ezra_pound wrote: »

This is not the issue. The issue we are discussing is the impending reversal of emergency pay cuts.

The OP asked where are we going to get the money. Not the inpending reversal. There is no impending reversal. Thats just pub talk

Politicians are playing down the possibility of pay hikes for public sector workers:

Howlin hopes for talks in the 2nd or. 3rd quarter when he sees the state if the finances Irish Times 14/1/2015

Enda Kenny sats reversal of pay cuts unlikely this year ( 2015) The Journal.ie 4/1/2014

jcon1913

ezra_pound wrote: »

What law needs to be changed though? Contact law and the ability to enforce a binding contract?

*bows head, deepens voice*

In the national interest

Response

In the national interest

Amen

jcon1913

chopper6 wrote: »

So what?

This one of the most expensive countries to live in,due to the greed of certain elements in the private sector.

The question isnt whether it is expensive to live here - the question is are teachers among the best paid in the world. I don't even have to check up because if you had any information that they were not among the best paid in the world you'd have put it here.:pac::pac::pac:

jcon1913

heybaby wrote: »

Any pay rises whatsoever should be performance related. Giving across the board pay increases without some increase in efficiency / productivity is nuts. I firmly believe that no public servants should be on permanent contracts.

Performance reviews should be ongoing and performance indicators adhered to and if an employee falls short, regardless of length of service or seniority then they should be shown the door.

For far too long public service jobs have been seen as a job for life where ambition, productivity, efficiency and urgency are forgotten from day one. The public service employees must be divested of their inherent sense of entitlement and brought into the 21st century where your job never mind your pay rise could be gone at the end of the week, such is the brutal reality in the private sector. The disparity between the public and private sectors is still baffling and must be addressed for the sake of equality.

I don't agree with the ''job for life'' mentality - but until you can guarantee no political interference and meddling in public affairs you have to bomb-proof public servants.

An aside: a pal of mine worked in the Dept of Agriculture when the Iraqi beef controversy was going on. the minister of the day put pressure on my pal to cook the figures so that he would not be caught out lying about non-Irish beef. He resisted the pressure but life was most unpleasant for a while.

So job for life it has to be.

ezra_pound

jcon1913 wrote: »

The OP asked where are we going to get the money. Not the inpending reversal. There is no impending reversal. Thats just pub talk

Politicians are playing diwn the possibikity of pay hikes for public sector workers:

Howlin hopes for talks in the 2nd or. 3rd quarter when he sees the state if the finances Irish Times 14/1/2015

Enda Kenny sats reversal of pay cuts unlikely this year ( 2015) The Journal.ie 4/1/2014

I admit that there is a dance between unions and the government. However the government has no choice but to dance and start the reversal. If they don't, the unions can go nuclear and challenge the legality of the cuts in the current environment, seeking a complete reversal.

This extract from independent.ie captures this issue to some extent:
Mr Howlin said the legality of the Government's financial emergency legislation (FEMPI) is predicated on there being a financial emergency.

He said: "If the economic recovery continues apace, the task of justifying all the reductions would be harder to sustain on the facts."

But were the €2.2bn a year in FEMPI cuts to be undone, Mr Howlin said such a move would again "propel the State's finances into an emergency by itself".

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/howlin-no-pay-bonanza-in-store-for-public-sector-30920822.html

jcon1913

ezra_pound wrote: »

I admit that there is a dance between unions and the government. However the government has no choice but to dance and start the reversal. If they don't, the unions can go nuclear and challenge the legality of the cuts in the current environment, seeking a complete reversal.

This extract from independent.ie captures this issue to some extent:
Mr Howlin said the legality of the Government's financial emergency legislation (FEMPI) is predicated on there being a financial emergency.

He said: "If the economic recovery continues apace, the task of justifying all the reductions would be harder to sustain on the facts."

But were the €2.2bn a year in FEMPI cuts to be undone, Mr Howlin said such a move would again "propel the State's finances into an emergency by itself".

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/howlin-no-pay-bonanza-in-store-for-public-sector-30920822.html

If course the govt has a choice. Theres always a choice.

But there is a lot of posturing going on. We can agree on that much.

Apart from being overpaid in the past whats the justification for pay rises?

ezra_pound

This extract from the independent from august 2014 also throws some light on the issue:

Howlin:
"Of course, there are pressures on it. As far as I am concerned, the big issue for this department as we move out of recession will be a structured way of unravelling FEMPI," he said.

Mr Howlin said the emergency measures legislation was "a significant part of the process" that brought the country through the crisis and he had to tell the Dail every June that the financial emergency continues to exist.

Catastrophic

"Otherwise that law falls. And it can't simply fall in one fell swoop as it would be catastrophic for the finances of the State," he added.

"So next year, we certainly will have to engage with the unions on the orderly winding down of FEMPI and who should benefit first and how that should be done over time," he said.

The minister said he could not specify when the pay and pension cuts will be reversed.

That has yet to be determined and it has to be done in an orderly way.

"But we have to plan for that day and we have to have agreement with the public 
sector unions that it is not going to be a big bang, because that would undo all the good work we have done over three years. There has to be an orderly wind-down, as opposed to a sudden ending," he said.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/public-sector-staff-in-line-for-reversal-of-pay-and-pension-cuts-30494594.html

ezra_pound

jcon1913 wrote: »

If course the govt has a choice. Theres always a choice.

But there is a lot of posturing going on. We can agree on that much.

Apart from being overpaid in the past whats the justification for pay rises?

If the unions bring a judicial review on the past cuts and they're deemed illegal, the government has no choice. The government knows this and it has to play ball. What it can negotiate is how the reversals will be structured.

Nobody is above or below the law including the government and the state.

Letree

I think the public service deserve a payrise, they have been attacked left right and centre over the last 7 years. Paycuts, Pension levies, extra hours, less staff, more work, less holidays. Although i would increase their take home pay by reducing the pension levy rather than a direct payrise.

ezra_pound

Letree wrote: »

I think the public service deserve a payrise, they have been attacked left right and centre over the last 7 years. Paycuts, Pension levies, extra hours, less staff, more work, less holidays. Although i would increase their take home pay by reducing the pension levy rather than a direct payrise.

It would seem as if the pension levy will be the first cut to be unwound.

JPF82

I'm just curious as to how much people think that public sector staff should be paid?

I have worked in private sector all my career but I am also studying for my teacher qualifications. It's my choice as I enjoy teaching much more than the career I have had since graduating in 2005. By way of comparison, I have gave up a Eur 53,000 + a year job in finance to become a teacher. I never expect to earn that teaching. While studying, I have had some part time work in schools and also worked packing shelves on Dunnes. So there is a short term sacrifice for me but I have made MY choice in this regard. I am happy with that. I look forward to graduating soon.

However, I am genuinely curious as to what people think a fair wage for a nurse, a garda or a teacher is? I get the impression that a lot of people just want people in other careers to just earn less than them!

Any argument about pay I have seen always ends up with people complaining that bankers earn too much, bus drivers earn too much, builders earn too much etc etc. We are a nation of complainers and knockers. If we all keep that up we will never amount to anything.

jcon1913

ezra_pound wrote: »

If the unions bring a judicial review on the past cuts and they're deemed illegal, the government has no choice. The government knows this and it has to play ball. What it can negotiate is how the reversals will be structured.

Nobody is above or below the law including the government and the state.

Be realistic here. Ask yourself can the pensioners ask for a judicial review of the pension levy? Answer - no.

Can workers paying Universal Social Charge have a review - no.

So why are public sector workers entitled to a review of govt decisions? Answer - theyre not.

chopper6

So there's the pension levy,two pay cuts and an unpaid national agreement award.

All or most of this will need to be restored and hiring will take place once the embargo is lifted.

There will probanly be at least another 5000 jobs created in the public and civil service within 5 years.

ezra_pound

heyjude wrote: »

I would regard any talk of across the board public sector pay rises as blatant electioneering. Why ? The Property Tax, which has only been in existence for just one full calendar year and the Water Tax which is due to start bringing in revenue this Spring, were, we were told introduced because it is necessary to balance the budget and in addition, in the case of the water tax, to provide the funds for necessary investments that the state was unable to fund.

So the property tax was to bring in necessary revenue to balance the budget and avoid the need for income tax increases, while the water tax was needed partially to fund investments that the state can't afford. Yet now having needed these two new taxes and with the budget still forecast to be several billions in deficit, is the government is now so awash with cash that it can afford to give pay increases :rolleyes: ???

If the government have enough to give pay rises to the public sector, then they didn't need the property or water taxes(or is the income from these new taxes going to be used to fund these wage increases). As for private sector comparisons, I wonder if any private sector company facing heavy losses, would even be considering universal pay rises for his staff ?

There is no such thing as a water tax.

Water charges are being brought in in order to fund our water system infrastructure and a water company has been set up in order to create efficiencies in that network and the of use of water before we run out of water and/or contaminate the entire drinking water supply.

Property tax is one of the most efficient and perfect forms of taxation. Only a criminal mug like ahern would get rid of it. 20% of us tax revenue is brought in by property taxes. Property tax in Britain is as old as magna carta if not older whereas income tax is only 200 years old. Property tax was also levied in ancient Greece.

Taxation isn't just about raising money. It's about creating an efficient, stable, and growing economy. A good tax system incentivises production and productive activity and efficient resource allocation. That is why property taxes were introduced. As well as creating a very stable form of funding for local government.

These measures are not draconian. They are sound and normal. It is not normal not to have them.


At any rate this has nothing to do with whether or not the government needs to address a reversal of PS pay cuts. Lpt and water charges are not emergency measures. They are normal measures for funding. The public sector pay cuts were brought in on emergency terms against the legal rights of the employees on the auspices that the state was in an existential financial crisis.

This existential crisis is over. The IMF have been and gone. We are solvent. We get funding at about 1%on the financial markets. Furthermore the situation is improving. The banks are improving -though still not functioning as well as is needed and employment and the economy are growing.
The crisis is over and now the cuts must be unwound.

ezra_pound

jcon1913 wrote: »

Be realistic here. Ask yourself can the pensioners ask for a judicial review of the pension levy? Answer - no.

Can workers paying Universal Social Charge have a review - no.

So why are public sector workers entitled to a review of govt decisions? Answer - theyre not.

What is illegal about the imposition of usc on income?

Or the pension levy on pension funds?

I'm confused.

P.s. the pension levy for private pensions is being phased out already.

P.s. I really don't think you understand the situation at all.

Letree

JPF82 wrote: »

However, I am genuinely curious as to what people think a fair wage for a nurse, a garda or a teacher is? I get the impression that a lot of people just want people in other careers to just earn less than them!
.

All jokes aside Fliball123 would have them on about €400 a week