Proposed Public sector pay rises

jcon1913

ezra_pound wrote: »

There is no such thing as a water tax.

Water charges are being brought in in order to fund our water system infrastructure and a water company has been set up in order to create efficiencies in that network and the of use of water before we run out of water and/or contaminate the entire drinking water supply.

Property tax is one of the most efficient and perfect forms of taxation. Only a criminal mug like ahern would get rid of it. 20% of us tax revenue is brought in by property taxes. Property tax in Britain is as old as magna carta if not older whereas income tax is only 200 years old. Property tax was also levied in ancient Greece.

Taxation isn't just about raising money. It's about creating an efficient, stable, and growing economy. A good tax system incentivises production and productive activity and efficient resource allocation. That is why property taxes were introduced. As well as creating a very stable form of funding for local government.

These measures are not draconian. They are sound and normal. It is not normal not to have them.


At any rate this has nothing to do with whether or not the government needs to address a reversal of PS pay cuts. Lpt and water charges are not emergency measures. They are normal measures for funding. The public sector pay cuts were brought in on emergency terms against the legal rights of the employees on the auspices that the state was in an existential financial crisis.

This existential crisis is over. The IMF have been and gone. We are solvent. We get funding at about 1%on the financial markets. Furthermore the situation is improving. The banks are improving -though still not functioning as well as is needed and employment and the economy are growing.
The crisis is over and now the cuts must be unwound.

You are right about the reintroduction of property taxes. It leads to a more effecient use of property. It spreads the load not just taxing work. It moves on property because a person on their own will sell a large house that they dont need instead of rattling around a family sized home.

No justification for reversal of public sector pay cuts. Im still unconvinced, in fact you havent raised a single point apart from "we were overpaid in the past and we'll be overpaid again in the future".

ezra_pound

jcon1913 wrote: »

Be realistic here. Ask yourself can the pensioners ask for a judicial review of the pension levy? Answer - no.

Can workers paying Universal Social Charge have a review - no.

So why are public sector workers entitled to a review of govt decisions? Answer - theyre not.

Forms of taxation have been successfully struck down in the past as being unconstuitional, including an application by an individual. In that particular case the applicant was refunded but no one else was but the tax was struck down as illegal and was immediately reverted. It had to do with discrimination on grounds of marriage.

Anyway this is not about a tax, it's about breaching a contract which is legally binding.

chopper6

Letree wrote: »

All jokes aside Fliball123 would have them on about €400 a week

There's others who'd sack them all and fill the jobs with untrained people from the dole queue with the threat of further mass sackings every so often.

jcon1913

JPF82 wrote: »

I'm just curious as to how much people think that public sector staff should be paid?

I have worked in private sector all my career but I am also studying for my teacher qualifications. It's my choice as I enjoy teaching much more than the career I have had since graduating in 2005. By way of comparison, I have gave up a Eur 53,000 + a year job in finance to become a teacher. I never expect to earn that teaching. While studying, I have had some part time work in schools and also worked packing shelves on Dunnes. So there is a short term sacrifice for me but I have made MY choice in this regard. I am happy with that. I look forward to graduating soon.

However, I am genuinely curious as to what people think a fair wage for a nurse, a garda or a teacher is? I get the impression that a lot of people just want people in other careers to just earn less than them!

Any argument about pay I have seen always ends up with people complaining that bankers earn too much, bus drivers earn too much, builders earn too much etc etc. We are a nation of complainers and knockers. If we all keep that up we will never amount to anything.

The public sector should be paid 20% less than private sector after taking into account their guaranteed pensions. That would bring us in to line with international morms.

This is because they cant lose their jobs like private sector workers.

ezra_pound

jcon1913 wrote: »

You are right about the reintroduction of property taxes. It leads to a more effecient use of property. It spreads the load not just taxing work. It moves on property because a person on their own will sell a large house that they dont need instead of rattling around a family sized home.

No justification for reversal of public sector pay cuts. Im still unconvinced, in fact you havent raised a single point apart from "we were overpaid in the past and we'll be overpaid again in the future".

I never said we were overpaid in the past. I said the pay cuts are only legal for the duration of the financial crisis.

jcon1913

ezra_pound wrote: »

What is illegal about the imposition of usc on income?

Or the pension levy on pension funds?

I'm confused.

P.s. the pension levy for private pensions is being phased out already.

P.s. I really don't think you understand the situation at all.

None of the above is illegal. Neither are public sector pay corrections. Ahem. Pay cuts. Perfectly legal govt decisions.

BTW the pension levy went up in the last budget AFAIK. so i wont be holding my breath on it coming down. There will possibly be an election before it is due to come down in any event.

chopper6

jcon1913 wrote: »

The public sector should be paid 20% less than private sector after taking into account their guaranteed pensions. That would bring us in to line with international morms.

This is because they cant lose their jobs like private sector workers.

Who are the private sector gardai,army and govt departments?


What private sector post offices,fire brigades,,Roadsweepers and dole offices?

ezra_pound

jcon1913 wrote: »

None of the above is illegal. Neither are public sector pay corrections. Ahem. Pay cuts. Perfectly legal govt decisions.

BTW the pension levy went up in the last budget AFAIK. so i wont be holding my breath on it coming down. There will possibly be an election before it is due to come down in any event.

Well that's not what the government think.

JPF82

jcon1913 wrote: »

The public sector should be paid 20% less than private sector after taking into account their guaranteed pensions. That would bring us in to line with international morms.

This is because they cant lose their jobs like private sector workers.

20% less than what private sector wage though? Take 20% off what I earned before? So 42,400 per annum. How would that figure go down with everyone here?

ezra_pound

jcon1913 wrote: »

None of the above is illegal. Neither are public sector pay corrections. Ahem. Pay cuts. Perfectly legal govt decisions.

BTW the pension levy went up in the last budget AFAIK. so i wont be holding my breath on it coming down. There will possibly be an election before it is due to come down in any event.

AFAIK you're wrong again. It came down from 0.75 to 0.15 and is expected to be done away with at the end of this year.

Sierra Oscar

There should be no across the board pay rises until new entrants to the public sector have the same renumeration as those that entered prior to the embargo. It is an absolute disgrace that younger people are being paid significantly less for doing the same job as their colleagues.

I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with a modest pay rise for that segment of the public sector, but forget about wider pay increases until that level of equality is achieved.

ezra_pound

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

There should be no across the board pay rises until new entrants to the public sector have the same renumeration as those that entered prior to the embargo. It is an absolute disgrace that younger people are being paid significantly less for doing the same job as their colleagues.

I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with a modest pay rise for that segment of the public sector, but forget about wider pay increases until that level of equality is achieved.

New entrants are on the same pay scales now. The scales have been merged.

Baggy Trousers

Election ploy for sure but I don't think we should start giving public sector pay rises until the budget deficit is under control. Borrowing to pay salaries is crazy.

chopper6

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

There should be no across the board pay rises until new entrants to the public sector have the same renumeration as those that entered prior to the embargo. It is an absolute disgrace that younger people are being paid significantly less for doing the same job as their colleagues.

I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with a modest pay rise for that segment of the public sector, but forget about wider pay increases until that level of equality is achieved.

Its not about pay rises.

Its about restoration of cuts...this affected starting rates too.

Further pay agreements down the road will probably bring entrance rates back up but will need to increase wages across the board too.

ezra_pound

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Election ploy for sure but I don't think we should start giving public sector pay rises until the budget deficit is under control. Borrowing to pay salaries is crazy.

How is it an election ploy if the government have no option?

ezra_pound

Just to repeat a quote from howling which I posted previously:

Mr Howlin said the emergency measures legislation was "a significant part of the process" that brought the country through the crisis and he had to tell the Dail every June that the financial emergency continues to exist.


"Otherwise that law falls. And it can't simply fall in one fell swoop as it would be catastrophic for the finances of the State," he added.

Baggy Trousers

ezra_pound wrote: »

How is it an election ploy if the government have no option?

I don't buy that. They were overpaid in the past and the budget deficit is still too high. Howlin is the same clown that could hardly find any allowances to cut no matter how ridiculous they were.

ezra_pound

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

I don't buy that. They were overpaid in the past and the budget deficit is still too high. Howlin is the same clown that could hardly find any allowances to cut no matter how ridiculous they were.

The question is not how much public sector workers should be paid. The question is, is the country still in an emergency, and a financial emergency at that.

Mardy Bum

ezra_pound wrote: »

New entrants are on the same pay scales now. The scales have been merged.

Not in all jobs such as teaching. There is still a 25% difference.

ezra_pound

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Not in all jobs such as teaching. There is still a 25% difference.

http://www.tui.ie/news-events/increase-in-salary-scale-for-2011-entrants-to-teaching.5632.html

doc11

ezra_pound wrote: »

http://www.tui.ie/news-events/increase-in-salary-scale-for-2011-entrants-to-teaching.5632.html

Placing people on a merged scale just means your not limited in terms of max salary which in terms of pension means very little now with career average earnings.

A teacher previously started at point 3 on old scale(like all PS) (plus allowances), now after two years you will be moved to the "equivalent" rate on the old scale which could be point one(without allowances). Adding extra steps at the bottom of a ladder for new entrants to climb is not fair and saying new entrants are on the same pay scales now is stretching the truth. Payscales are rather meaningless if people are starting at different points or waiting to get on them.

jank

The Muppet wrote: »

The point you are missing is that he said they are leaving for better paid jobs in the private sector which blows a hole in the argument that the public sector is better paid that the private sector.

I really doubt any one here would want their public services run as a private company where the end user would pay the full cost of the service they are using.

Oh absolutely, if we could privatise and out source more public sector services the better. You sound as if public sector is somehow free. It all has to be paid for via the tax take.

jank

Godge wrote: »

€5.3 bn in 2015, below the 3% target, money is available for tax cuts and for social welfare bonuses, why not public service pay?

To be honest pointing to Social Welfare Bonuses and jumping up and down with your spoon saying 'where is my cut' is not going to sway anyone. Well anyone with a brain that is.

The fairest and most equitable way to redistribute the proceeds of a growing economy is in the form of tax cuts on income, especially the top rate which is crippling the middle class.

ALL workers benefit from this, not a minority in the PS. There is no logical reason other than selfishness to oppose this in favor of PS only pay increases.

jank

chopper6 wrote: »

99.5% efficiency is a good thing.


You wouldn't see that in the private sector

See, this is what pisses a lot of people off. The neck of some people who think they are entitled to increments because of time served. There is no way in hell that 99.5% of PS workers are satisfactory in their jobs. It just casts a light into the shoddy management and work practices that are endemic in the PS where work performance reviews are just box ticking exercise and where Unions make sure that no one can get fired even if they are more useless than a bag of potatoes. It reminds of the Soviet Union reporting increased production of agricultural products when the reality on the ground was a lot different.

ezra_pound

jank wrote: »

To be honest pointing to Social Welfare Bonuses and jumping up and down with your spoon saying 'where is my cut' is not going to sway anyone. Well anyone with a brain that is.

The fairest and most equitable way to redistribute the proceeds of a growing economy is in the form of tax cuts on income, especially the top rate which is crippling the middle class.

ALL workers benefit from this, not a minority in the PS. There is no logical reason other than selfishness to oppose this in favor of PS only pay increases.

I agree with you in principle. Notwithstanding the fact that by your logic the correction should have been made without the public sector taking the cuts in the first point.

However in reality this is not the issue with the unwinding of the public service pay cuts. Most of the pay cuts - all the pre Haddington road ones- are heading into dubious legal status, and if they are not slowly unwound, could be legally challenged which could get rid of all of them in one go, very suddenly. That would be a major shock to the public finances.

Rightwing

jank wrote: »

To be honest pointing to Social Welfare Bonuses and jumping up and down with your spoon saying 'where is my cut' is not going to sway anyone. Well anyone with a brain that is.

The fairest and most equitable way to redistribute the proceeds of a growing economy is in the form of tax cuts on income, especially the top rate which is crippling the middle class.

ALL workers benefit from this, not a minority in the PS. There is no logical reason other than selfishness to oppose this in favor of PS only pay increases.

The only solution really is to privatise the likes of the councils, and many other sections of the PS. Then give them whatever pay rises the require (but don't come to the tax payer for bailouts).

ezra_pound

Rightwing wrote: »

The only solution really is to privatise the likes of the councils, and many other sections of the PS. Then give them whatever pay rises the require (but don't come to the tax payer for bailouts).

Why the councils? How would you fund them? Greatly increasing property tax? New charges?

Rightwing

ezra_pound wrote: »

Why the councils? How would you fund them? Greatly increasing property tax? New charges?

Councils are just 1 section I'd like to see privatised.

Slash number, wages & conditions.

DeJa VooDoo

All PS workers earning more than 40k should have their pay cut by 20-30%.
Their salary should be linked to the private sector like it was during the celtic tiger years.

Funny how benchmarking only suits these type of (entitled) people when it suits.

The fact that they cry about pay cuts while receiving increments shows the warped and protected little bubble they live in.

Baggy Trousers

ezra_pound wrote: »

The question is not how much public sector workers should be paid. The question is, is the country still in an emergency, and a financial emergency at that.

Are you suggesting that governments should only be able to benchmark upwards? Nonsense. A government with balls would the friggin laws you are moaning about.

Financial emergency? Look at what our years of overspending has done here:
http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/ireland

And of course we have a public sector pension crisis looming - who is going to pay for that madness?