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Proposed Public sector pay rises
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The legislation defines it...it is mostly connected to the end of the bailout
It isn't defined on your opinion...or mine
Risky there has yet to be any phucking investigation into how quantitative easing which is being currently introduced to the euro will impact on one of our main areas which significantly contribute to our recovery and that being our exports..Now ask yourself who is our main export partner? England..So what is the effect of a decreasing Euro while Sterling stays the same? Exports get more expensive meaning less of it..
yet someone as novel as myself when it comes to economics can see clearly that we are not out of the woods and infact the ECB/Trioka by using the easing methods are going to stiffle our Economy..yet phuckwit houwlin thinks yeah pay rises for all the lads the trough is back in business baby.
I am not saying no payrises indefinitely but until we stop borrowing for the day to day we should not be borrowing to pay the ps higher wage..0 -
fliball123 wrote: »Is it just me or is the timing of this a spin to get Labour back some of their core public sector votes..My biggest gripe over this is not one political or media outlet have asked the relevant question about this injustice if it goes ahead. That question being.
Where the phuck are you getting the money for pay rises when we are still borrowing 8 billion this year and we are over 200billion in debt. Mr Howlin please outline what taxes I , my kids and grand kids will have to pay for this payrise?fliball123 wrote: »And Jesus wept in the private sector what goes on is you are in a job one day and your redundant that next no choice about it but forcefully told you have no job...how terrible it is that the lushes in the ps are able to leave on their own terms.
Mod: Words like injustice and lushes really don't help the thread you created. Tone it down a bit please.fliball123 wrote: »Sorry yes it is..the reality is the private sector do not do soft landings when a company is borrowing and broke it smacks into a wall and the employees go with it..This person is saying how terrible it is that they are leaving on their own terms and yet fail to see how terrible it has been for those in the private sector who have had no choice but to hit that wall and go on the dole...There is a correlation
Probably because if a company is insolvent it is illegal to trade and their isn't enough income to meet outgoings. Countries don't really come under that criteria. Correlation does not equal causation, nor do you know that person doesn't feel sorry for others who lost their jobs. Your assuming they don't without any logical reason whatsoever.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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professore wrote: »For someone who lived through the dotcom crash of '01 this is complete nonsense. IT has huge booms and busts. It's like saying the building sector back in '08.
My point is salary is a product of supply and demand. In my most extreme example (farming) no one makes the argument that farmers should accept lower pay due to the unlikeness they will lose their livelihoods. in their case it is an unavoidable characteristic of the industry just like teaching. Yet generally speaking salary and security are positively correlated. In the dotcom crash IT salaries would have gone down not up as predicted by fliball123's model.0 -
Mod: Words like injustice and lushes really don't help the thread you created. Tone it down a bit please.
Probably because if a company is insolvent it is illegal to trade and their isn't enough income to meet outgoings. Countries don't really come under that criteria. Correlation does not equal causation, nor do you know that person doesn't feel sorry for others who lost their jobs. Your assuming they don't without any logical reason whatsoever.
Ehh this person is trying to make out that it is so bad that people in the PS are leaving to the private sector for better salaries , when the private sector over the course of the bust were up to a rate of 3/4 small companies going to the wall each week..
So that response is to tell the poster to cop on and live in the real world where there were very very few forced redundancies in the public sector, all were voluntary with lump sums and parachute payments a plenty0 -
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fliball123 wrote: »This all depends on what you constitute an emergency ..
The debt going up month after month
Debt to GDP going up month after month
And still borrowing 8 billion this year...to me and any other sane person paying for the above this is a phucking emergency and how those phuckwit Howlin deal with it..by increasing the borrowing to pay payrises to on average, or by mean or median one of highest paid sectors in the OCED ...
Yet the likes of the quantitative easing effects that are coming have not even been taken into consideration by this phuckwit and will make growth in our economy a lot harder as our main export market England sterling will remain the same and the Euro will plummet further making this more expensive and until we understand the downfall from this, decisions such as ps payrises should not even be contemplated
Wow, so full of wrongs, this post is.
(1) The debt has always gone up, since the beginning, except for one or two years in the 1990s when we ran a surplus
(2) The debt to GDP ratio may have peaked in 2014 and will peak (if not) in 2015, we are just waiting on GDP figures to know which it is
(3) From the budget speech: "Total general government revenue will be €65.2 billion in 2015 and total general government expenditure will be €70.5 billion", that is €5.2 bn, much less than the €8 bn.
(4) You are right that quantitative easing will see the Euro fall against Sterling, but you are 100% wrong that this is bad news for exporters. It will make our exporters more competitive and it will cost less for sterling consumers to buy our goods.
Your rant is so 2010.0 -
barneystinson wrote: »In what parts of the private sector have wage rates fallen by 15-20%?
In many cases they felll by 100% when people lost their jobs, in many other cases people had to take wage cuts to keep their jobs, difference was we just got on with it to keep working.
Just because it didn't make the news as much doesn't mean it didn't happen.0 -
barneystinson wrote: »Articles published in 2011, based on data from 2008/09/10...
Have you more up to date data / articles / links to prove that the position has changed since 2011?
The point being that public servants are paid too much in relation to their private sector colleagues and relative to the pay gap between public servants and private sector employees in the rest of the EU. To give public servants a further rise now will only increase the gap further.0 -
Link here:
http://www.per.gov.ie/public-service-pay-policy/
Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2009
The purpose of the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2009 was to introduce a number of financial emergency measures in the public interest. These measures were the making of a new deduction from the remuneration of public servants who are members of a public service pension scheme or who are entitled to a benefit under such a scheme or receive a payment in lieu of membership; provisions to allow public bodies to reduce the professional fees paid by them to external service providers; changes in the early childcare supplement and in the Farm Waste Management Scheme.
Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (No 2) Act 2009
This Act provided for reductions in public service pay with effect from 1 January 2010. The rate of reduction varied by salary level but amounted to an average of around 6.5%.
Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2010
This Act provided for a further reduction to the remuneration of members of the Government. The Act also provided for a reduction to the amounts payable by way of pension to retired public servants.
Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (Amendment) Act 2011
This Act provided for the reduction of judicial pay and pensions, following a constitutional amendment. The Act also further reduced the pay of members of the Government, whose members had voluntarily reduced their pay upon taking office, prior to this legislation coming into force.
Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2013
This Act provided for a reduction in remuneration for public servants earning more than €65,000, and a further reduction in the amount paid to those in receipt of a public service pension in excess of € 32,500. The Act also provided for a suspension of incremental progression until 2016 for all public servants, unless they are covered by a collective agreement modifying the terms of the incremental suspension which has been registered with the Labour Relations Commission.
So................
The only people in the public service who took cuts after 2011 were those paid over €65,000.
Strictly speaking, there was an increase in working hours for all public servants, so part-time public servants had a pay-cut if they remained on the same hours.0 -
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Link here:
http://www.per.gov.ie/public-service-pay-policy/
Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2009
The purpose of the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2009 was to introduce a number of financial emergency measures in the public interest. These measures were the making of a new deduction from the remuneration of public servants who are members of a public service pension scheme or who are entitled to a benefit under such a scheme or receive a payment in lieu of membership; provisions to allow public bodies to reduce the professional fees paid by them to external service providers; changes in the early childcare supplement and in the Farm Waste Management Scheme.
Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (No 2) Act 2009
This Act provided for reductions in public service pay with effect from 1 January 2010. The rate of reduction varied by salary level but amounted to an average of around 6.5%.
Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2010
This Act provided for a further reduction to the remuneration of members of the Government. The Act also provided for a reduction to the amounts payable by way of pension to retired public servants.
Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (Amendment) Act 2011
This Act provided for the reduction of judicial pay and pensions, following a constitutional amendment. The Act also further reduced the pay of members of the Government, whose members had voluntarily reduced their pay upon taking office, prior to this legislation coming into force.
Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2013
This Act provided for a reduction in remuneration for public servants earning more than €65,000, and a further reduction in the amount paid to those in receipt of a public service pension in excess of € 32,500. The Act also provided for a suspension of incremental progression until 2016 for all public servants, unless they are covered by a collective agreement modifying the terms of the incremental suspension which has been registered with the Labour Relations Commission.
So................
The only people in the public service who took cuts after 2011 were those paid over €65,000.
Do the figures on which your reports are based, include the first round of pay cuts though? They kicked in in 2010, and at least one of your links uses 2009 figures.0 -
Not to go down "that" route, but doesn't the €5.2bn deficit rely on UÉ being off the books?Wow, so full of wrongs, this post is.
(1) The debt has always gone up, since the beginning, except for one or two years in the 1990s when we ran a surplus
(2) The debt to GDP ratio may have peaked in 2014 and will peak (if not) in 2015, we are just waiting on GDP figures to know which it is
(3) From the budget speech: "Total general government revenue will be €65.2 billion in 2015 and total general government expenditure will be €70.5 billion", that is €5.2 bn, much less than the €8 bn.
(4) You are right that quantitative easing will see the Euro fall against Sterling, but you are 100% wrong that this is bad news for exporters. It will make our exporters more competitive and it will cost less for sterling consumers to buy our goods.
Your rant is so 2010.0 -
fliball123 wrote: »Ehh this person is trying to make out that it is so bad that people in the PS are leaving to the private sector for better salaries , when the private sector over the course of the bust were up to a rate of 3/4 small companies going to the wall each week..
So that response is to tell the poster to cop on and live in the real world where there were very very few forced redundancies in the public sector, all were voluntary with lump sums and parachute payments a plenty
You are talking about 2008 when you talk about 3/4 companies going to the wall each week. Employment has been going up for he last two years.
As for pay in the private sector, loads and loads of companies have given pay increases in the last year. Industrial Relations News recently listed 100 companies that they know of that brought in pay deals in 2014 ranging from the likes of Leo Pharma (6% over 39 months), Micro Bio (8%, some backdated to 2013), Pfizer (4% over 18 months) in the chemical manufacturing sector through others like Hasbro, Analog, Glen Dimplex in other areas of manufacturing, to Kingspan, Murphy International and Murray Timber in construction to Britvic, Lakeland Dairies, Glanbia in Food, to Arnotts, Boots, Dunnes and Tesco in retailing to many others like Eircom and Irish Life.
Pay rises are now the norm in the private sector - where do you think all the extra income tax is coming from????
You really need to lose the 2008 vibe and get with the times.0 -
Isn't there also the PRD pension levy on top of that, further reducing the disposable income?Link here:
http://www.per.gov.ie/public-service-pay-policy/
Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2009
The purpose of the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2009 was to introduce a number of financial emergency measures in the public interest. These measures were the making of a new deduction from the remuneration of public servants who are members of a public service pension scheme or who are entitled to a benefit under such a scheme or receive a payment in lieu of membership; provisions to allow public bodies to reduce the professional fees paid by them to external service providers; changes in the early childcare supplement and in the Farm Waste Management Scheme.
Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (No 2) Act 2009
This Act provided for reductions in public service pay with effect from 1 January 2010. The rate of reduction varied by salary level but amounted to an average of around 6.5%.
Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2010
This Act provided for a further reduction to the remuneration of members of the Government. The Act also provided for a reduction to the amounts payable by way of pension to retired public servants.
Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (Amendment) Act 2011
This Act provided for the reduction of judicial pay and pensions, following a constitutional amendment. The Act also further reduced the pay of members of the Government, whose members had voluntarily reduced their pay upon taking office, prior to this legislation coming into force.
Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2013
This Act provided for a reduction in remuneration for public servants earning more than €65,000, and a further reduction in the amount paid to those in receipt of a public service pension in excess of € 32,500. The Act also provided for a suspension of incremental progression until 2016 for all public servants, unless they are covered by a collective agreement modifying the terms of the incremental suspension which has been registered with the Labour Relations Commission.
So................
The only people in the public service who took cuts after 2011 were those paid over €65,000.0 -
The public sector is still way overpaid when compared to other EU countries. Maybe keep the Health service pay bills down? Something has to be done to keep the services without saddling the taxpayer with more debt.
Public Servants pay tax too! just a point to note, they include nurses, teachers, general clerical and administrative staff etc. I don't think anyone here can dispute the fact that a graduate nurse is paid peanuts0 -
fliball123 wrote: »Sorry yes it is..the reality is the private sector do not do soft landings when a company is borrowing and broke it smacks into a wall and the employees go with it..This person is saying how terrible it is that they are leaving on their own terms and yet fail to see how terrible it has been for those in the private sector who have had no choice but to hit that wall and go on the dole...There is a correlation
Fliball, if your 'private' company hits a wall and you end up redundant - you can always apply for a job in the public sector, I'm sure they'd be delighted to take you!0 -
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The poster I replied to ( actually it was you Barney! ) was trying to make out that there had been cuts since 2011, thereby rendering information from 2011 redundant.barneystinson wrote: »Do the figures on which your reports are based, include the first round of pay cuts though?
There haven't been ( apparently ) because if there were you'd be on here with links to articles where we could see where the cuts were.:pac::pac::pac:
Do you have links to where we can see that there were cuts in public service pay since 2011? If you do let's see them.
Otherwise articles based on info relevant in 2011 are still relevant, IMHO.
So apart from people in the public service having to work longer hours there have been no cuts to public service pay since 2011. And articles saying that there is a bigger gap between public servants pay and private sector pay in Ireland must be right.
Over to you Barney, have you anything to back up your opinion?0 -
Wow, so full of wrongs, this post is.
(1) The debt has always gone up, since the beginning, except for one or two years in the 1990s when we ran a surplus
(2) The debt to GDP ratio may have peaked in 2014 and will peak (if not) in 2015, we are just waiting on GDP figures to know which it is
(3) From the budget speech: "Total general government revenue will be €65.2 billion in 2015 and total general government expenditure will be €70.5 billion", that is €5.2 bn, much less than the €8 bn.
(4) You are right that quantitative easing will see the Euro fall against Sterling, but you are 100% wrong that this is bad news for exporters. It will make our exporters more competitive and it will cost less for sterling consumers to buy our goods.
Your rant is so 2010.
So hang on there now...
(1) Have we ever been this much in debt? NO
(2) So in the year that our deficit to GDP is supposedly according to you will peak we should push the boundaries a bit more and borrow more for a pay rise for the public sector..This insight without any proper thought of how quantitative easing is going to feck up our exports to the UK? Really???
(3) Does this include the extra spend that always happen for example the hundreds of million needed to plug the hole in the health service?
(4) does it not mean that every Pound we would of got from the UK is now worth less?0 -
fliball123 wrote: »Sorry yes it is..the reality is the private sector do not do soft landings when a company is borrowing and broke it smacks into a wall and the employees go with it..This person is saying how terrible it is that they are leaving on their own terms and yet fail to see how terrible it has been for those in the private sector who have had no choice but to hit that wall and go on the dole...There is a correlation
The point you are missing is that he said they are leaving for better paid jobs in the private sector which blows a hole in the argument that the public sector is better paid that the private sector.
I really doubt any one here would want their public services run as a private company where the end user would pay the full cost of the service they are using.0 -
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You are talking about 2008 when you talk about 3/4 companies going to the wall each week. Employment has been going up for he last two years.
As for pay in the private sector, loads and loads of companies have given pay increases in the last year. Industrial Relations News recently listed 100 companies that they know of that brought in pay deals in 2014 ranging from the likes of Leo Pharma (6% over 39 months), Micro Bio (8%, some backdated to 2013), Pfizer (4% over 18 months) in the chemical manufacturing sector through others like Hasbro, Analog, Glen Dimplex in other areas of manufacturing, to Kingspan, Murphy International and Murray Timber in construction to Britvic, Lakeland Dairies, Glanbia in Food, to Arnotts, Boots, Dunnes and Tesco in retailing to many others like Eircom and Irish Life.
Pay rises are now the norm in the private sector - where do you think all the extra income tax is coming from????
You really need to lose the 2008 vibe and get with the times.
so it was only 2008
2012/2013
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/number-of-irish-firms-going-bust-fell-by-20pc-in-first-quarter-29162014.html
2011
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/number-of-irish-firms-going-bust-fell-by-20pc-in-first-quarter-29162014.html
2010
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0104/296034-economy/
Yeah nothing at all happened after 2008 except for pay increments in the public sector
How many of these companies that you list are in debt or borrowing billions?0 -
Public Servants pay tax too! just a point to note, they include nurses, teachers, general clerical and administrative staff etc. I don't think anyone here can dispute the fact that a graduate nurse is paid peanuts
Yes they do so surely the fairest way to give them payrises is via the income tax scheme so we all get something0 -
Fliball, if your 'private' company hits a wall and you end up redundant - you can always apply for a job in the public sector, I'm sure they'd be delighted to take you!
And vice versa anyone in the public sector thinking we can afford payrises when we cant and think that this is unfair can feel free to leave the public sector and join the private sector0 -
The Muppet wrote: »The point you are missing is that he said they are leaving for better paid jobs in the private sector which blows a hole in the argument that the public sector is better paid that the private sector.
I really doubt any one here would want their public services run as a private company where the end user would pay the full cost of the service they are using.
I didnt miss that fair play to them it means less of a pension that I have to pay for them now. Does the poster have any view on these remarkable private sector companies paying the salary as to how much debt they are in or if they have a yearly deficit in the billions? This is the point they miss0 -
fliball123 wrote: »Ehh this person is trying to make out that it is so bad that people in the PS are leaving to the private sector for better salaries , when the private sector over the course of the bust were up to a rate of 3/4 small companies going to the wall each week..
So that response is to tell the poster to cop on and live in the real world where there were very very few forced redundancies in the public sector, all were voluntary with lump sums and parachute payments a plenty
Yeah, I get that.
What I don't get is what does the 100's of thousands let go after a huge property and credit bubble in 2008/09 got to with somebody leaving their PS job now? Loads of those jobs were in construction and related activities, car sales, retail and other employment sustained by an out of control credit bubble.
Somebody is giving their experience of working in the PS at the minute, it's up to you whether you want to take on board any of that information whatsoever.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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The poster I replied to ( actually it was you Barney! ) was trying to make out that there had been cuts since 2011, thereby rendering information from 2011 redundant.
There haven't been ( apparently ) because if there were you'd be on here with links to articles where we could see where the cuts were.:pac::pac::pac:
Do you have links to where we can see that there were cuts in public service pay since 2011? If you do let's see them.
Otherwise articles based on info relevant in 2011 are still relevant, IMHO.
So apart from people in the public service having to work longer hours there have been no cuts to public service pay since 2011. And articles saying that there is a bigger gap between public servants pay and private sector pay in Ireland must be right.
Over to you Barney, have you anything to back up your opinion?
No, they are not, because public service pay rates have been flat since 2011 while private sector pay has been on the rise, thus closing any gap.0 -
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Pay rates need to rise in the public sector, especially for those who were classed as "new entrants" in recent years and who are getting paid peanuts for dealing with some of the most difficult people in society.
I work in a sector that deals with some very difficult and abusive people on a daily basis and I am relatively happy with my pay, but I can see the recent new staff who are getting paid a third of the amount per hour that another person is - and all because they are new entrants. They have exactly the same job desciption and in some cases have more responsibility, but get paid drastically less than others. Its just simply not fair.
To all the naysayers out there, answer me this - would you like your 4 year old to be taught in a primary school by someone who is demoralised and resentful due to the pitifully small amount of pay they are getting compared to a teacher in the next room getting paid a lot lot more for doing the same job? Because that is an example of exactly whats happening.
I'm not in favour of pay increases across the board for everyone, but there really is a two tier system at the moment that morale-wise is tearing the public sector apart.
Another problem is the old thing about paying peanuts and getting monkeys. I've had two staff out in my workplace this year who were replaced by monkeys who hadn't a clue about how to do the job - all because none of the experienced staff wanted to apply due to the rubbish rate of pay - the fallout from all of this - a lower quality service being provided to the public.
By the way pay rises in the public sector are over rated - any increment you get is mostly taken back off again due to Income tax, PRSI, USC, Pension Levy, Widow and orphan fund.0 -
The poster I replied to ( actually it was you Barney! ) was trying to make out that there had been cuts since 2011, thereby rendering information from 2011 redundant.
There haven't been ( apparently ) because if there were you'd be on here with links to articles where we could see where the cuts were.:pac::pac::pac:
Do you have links to where we can see that there were cuts in public service pay since 2011? If you do let's see them.
Otherwise articles based on info relevant in 2011 are still relevant, IMHO.
So apart from people in the public service having to work longer hours there have been no cuts to public service pay since 2011. And articles saying that there is a bigger gap between public servants pay and private sector pay in Ireland must be right.
Over to you Barney, have you anything to back up your opinion?
Yeah, it's all in the stuff you linked.
The report by the IIEA referred to in the Guardian (which by the way relates to about 4,500 Irish civil servants, and therefore not indicative of a whole lot about the PS in its entirety) refers to several levels/categories of staff.
The middle managers and senior managers (who are the overpaid ones) have had a further pay cut under Haddington Road as well as having their working hours increased by 6/7% - that's an actual pay cut and an effective one.
The lower level workers will not have had their actual pay cut but have had hours increased, again an effective pay cut. And if you look at the tables of figures in the IIEA report you'll see it contains a working hours adjustment in comparing pay across different countries.
Back over to you. Unless you've something more recent/relevant?0 -
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Yeah, I get that.
What I don't get is what does the 100's of thousands let go after a huge property and credit bubble in 2008/09 got to with somebody leaving their PS job now? Loads of those jobs were in construction and related activities, car sales, retail and other employment sustained by an out of control credit bubble.
Somebody is giving their experience of working in the PS at the minute, it's up to you whether you want to take on board any of that information whatsoever.
Its to do with competitiveness and bang for your book..We pay enough to have a first world education and health systems as well as infrastructure..yet we have a p1ss poor one. We are broke , borrowing and in debt so why should we pay more for the above when it is not working for a lot of people. If people in the PS feel undervalued by all means move and get more else where but I guarantee no company hiring these are broke and borrowing..So more power to them keep it going. It also means my kids will not have to pay as much for their pension entitlements.
As for you sentiments about taking on board the information what relevence does it have in the here and now?0
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