Proposed Public sector pay rises

Godge

fliball123 wrote: »

so it was only 2008

2012/2013
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/number-of-irish-firms-going-bust-fell-by-20pc-in-first-quarter-29162014.html

2011
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/number-of-irish-firms-going-bust-fell-by-20pc-in-first-quarter-29162014.html

2010
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0104/296034-economy/

Yeah nothing at all happened after 2008 except for pay increments in the public sector

How many of these companies that you list are in debt or borrowing billions?

Businesses always go bust, that is the cyclical nature of things. Other businesses open to replace them. Where is H. Williams. Woolworths or Superquinn in the Ireland of today?

In the public sector, schools close and others open, hospitals get upgraded while others get downgraded.

The only difference between the two sectors is that the public sector is more humane and moves the workers with the jobs.

The only time there was an increased number of businesses going to the wall in Ireland was in the immediate aftermath of the crash.

Godge

jcon1913 wrote: »

Have you any proof of this - please post links - thanks. Otherwise if you cannot back up your opinion I will have to disagree with you.

I did already, earlier in the thread.

The 2014 deals in many companies, are the second round of deals since 2010. Pay is on the rise in the private sector.

Godge wrote: »

You are talking about 2008 when you talk about 3/4 companies going to the wall each week. Employment has been going up for he last two years.

As for pay in the private sector, loads and loads of companies have given pay increases in the last year. Industrial Relations News recently listed 100 companies that they know of that brought in pay deals in 2014 ranging from the likes of Leo Pharma (6% over 39 months), Micro Bio (8%, some backdated to 2013), Pfizer (4% over 18 months) in the chemical manufacturing sector through others like Hasbro, Analog, Glen Dimplex in other areas of manufacturing, to Kingspan, Murphy International and Murray Timber in construction to Britvic, Lakeland Dairies, Glanbia in Food, to Arnotts, Boots, Dunnes and Tesco in retailing to many others like Eircom and Irish Life.

Pay rises are now the norm in the private sector - where do you think all the extra income tax is coming from????

You really need to lose the 2008 vibe and get with the times.

jcon1913

boatbuilder wrote: »

Pay rates need to rise in the public sector, especially for those who were classed as "new entrants" in recent years and who are getting paid peanuts for dealing with some of the most difficult people in society.

I work in a sector that deals with some very difficult and abusive people on a daily basis and I am relatively happy with my pay, but I can see the recent new staff who are getting paid a third of the amount per hour that another person is - and all because they are new entrants. They have exactly the same job desciption and in some cases have more responsibility, but get paid drastically less than others. Its just simply not fair.

To all the naysayers out there, answer me this - would you like your 4 year old to be taught in a primary school by someone who is demoralised and resentful due to the pitifully small amount of pay they are getting compared to a teacher in the next room getting paid a lot lot more for doing the same job? Because that is an example of exactly whats happening.

What you outline is unfortunate but the logic of what you argue is that there can be no flexability in public service pay.

If people don't want to work as teachers, nobody is forcing them. AFAIK there is a lot of competition for teaching posts - so there is a queue of people who take the jobs of these unhappy teachers.

Maybe social workers have a different take on this...

The Muppet

fliball123 wrote: »

I didnt miss that fair play to them it means less of a pension that I have to pay for them now. Does the poster have any view on these remarkable private sector companies paying the salary as to how much debt they are in or if they have a yearly deficit in the billions? This is the point they miss

ah right so your problem is paying for the services you use.

fliball123

Godge wrote: »

Businesses always go bust, that is the cyclical nature of things. Other businesses open to replace them. Where is H. Williams. Woolworths or Superquinn in the Ireland of today?

In the public sector, schools close and others open, hospitals get upgraded while others get downgraded.

The only difference between the two sectors is that the public sector is more humane and moves the workers with the jobs.

The only time there was an increased number of businesses going to the wall in Ireland was in the immediate aftermath of the crash.

I am after putting up links that they were going at the same rate right up until 2012/13 thats 5 years...

More humane maybe for the worker who cannot do the new job or there are too many of them employed to do the job as can be seen via the HSE phuckup ..Yet less humane for the other taxpayers who are forced to pay for it.

In the public sector how much of % is ring fenced on wages in both education and health?? and then people wonder why we have a crap health and eduction service

fliball123

The Muppet wrote: »

ah right so your problem is paying for the services you use.

No its for overpaying for the poor service that I am forced to use a big big difference

jcon1913

barneystinson wrote: »

Yeah, it's all in the stuff you linked.

The report by the IIEA referred to in the Guardian (which by the way relates to about 4,500 Irish civil servants, and therefore not indicative of a whole lot about the PS in its entirety) refers to several levels/categories of staff.

The middle managers and senior managers (who are the overpaid ones) have had a further pay cut under Haddington Road as well as having their working hours increased by 6/7% - that's an actual pay cut and an effective one.

The lower level workers will not have had their actual pay cut but have had hours increased, again an effective pay cut. And if you look at the tables of figures in the IIEA report you'll see it contains a working hours adjustment in comparing pay across different countries.

Back over to you. Unless you've something more recent/relevant?

Sorry no links in your post - it's not back over to me - back up what you say if you can.:pac::pac::pac:

barneystinson

jcon1913 wrote: »

Sorry no links in your post - it's not back over to me - back up what you say if you can.:pac::pac::pac:

It's all in your links - have you read what's in them? I'm not going to repost links to your links.

The Muppet

fliball123 wrote: »

No its for overpaying for the poor service that I am forced to use a big big difference

nobody forces you to use public services.

Godge

jcon1913 wrote: »

Here ya go

Article in the Guardian that bastion of Free Market Capitalism telling us that perhaps the public service is paid too much

http://www.theguardian.com/business/ireland-business-blog-with-lisa-ocarroll/2011/sep/13/ireland-civil-servants-pay

Heres a link to a study by the European Central Bank

http://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/pdf/scpwps/ecbwp1406.pdf

Conclusion in the Abstract ...

'.....with Greece, Ireland, Italy, Portugal and Spain exhibiting

higher public sector premia than other countries.''
.

Heres one that says that the top guys are overpaid but the bottom tier are underpaid:

http://www.thejournal.ie/top-irish-civil-servants-paid-more-than-eu-counterparts-277889-Nov2011/

I have now skimmed the EU Central Bank report. It acknowledges that the figures used predate the cuts in public service pay.

Footnote 5 on page 10 states: "As regards the period 2010 and beyond, Appendix III provides some details on public wage policies since the start-up of the crisis."


Looking at Appendix III, the following points are listed:

"In the case of Ireland, the public sector pay increases scheduled under the terms of the National Wage Agreement, ‘Towards 2016’, due in 2009 were not paid. Furthermore, public sector pay was effectively cut in 2009 via the introduction of the public service pension levy, a pension-related
deduction. There was a further formal cut in public sector pay on a tiered basis in 2010, as part of the 2010 Budget. A further development has been the successful conclusion of talks between the Government and the leadership of public sector unions, as detailed in the “Public Service Agreement”. The pay policy element of the “Public Service Agreement” states that there will be no further reductions in public sector pay between 2010 and 2014."

These were not included in the data, which covered the period up until 2007.

fliball123

The Muppet wrote: »

nobody forces you to use public services.

So when I drive I am not forced to use roads that were built by the PS, or am I not forced to go to hospital if I am sick, am I not forced to send my kid to school?? really ??

So i am forced unless I give up working then its all paid for me

Godge

fliball123 wrote: »

I am after putting up links that they were going at the same rate right up until 2012/13 thats 5 years...

More humane maybe for the worker who cannot do the new job or there are too many of them employed to do the job as can be seen via the HSE phuckup ..Yet less humane for the other taxpayers who are forced to pay for it.

In the public sector how much of % is ring fenced on wages in both education and health?? and then people wonder why we have a crap health and eduction service

No, your link says they decreased by 20% from 2012 into 2013.

The previous data re 2010 is from a different news source and is not comparable.

jcon1913

barneystinson wrote: »

It's all in your links - have you read what's in them? I'm not going to repost links to your links.

In the links to the articles that I put up it says that there is a gap between public sector and private sector pay. Furthermore the articles say that there is a bigger gap between Irish public sector versus private sector workers than in many other European countries.

You say that the gap has narrowed, you have no links to articles to back up what you say.

Instead of that you have resorted to nit-picking about the basic facts.

Unfortunately the gap it too big still and will have to be reversed. Currently there is a gap in favour of public sector workers of 20% in other words they are paid 20% more than private sector workers when all factors are taken into account like pensions etc etc.

In a lot of the world the gap is the other way round - in other words public sector workers are paid 20% less that people in the private sector.

Anyway I can see I am not going to change your mind so we'll leave it at that.

boatbuilder

jcon1913 wrote: »

If people don't want to work as teachers, nobody is forcing them. AFAIK there is a lot of competition for teaching posts - so there is a queue of people who take the jobs of these unhappy teachers.

Yeah there is a queue of absolute monkeys who are willing to work for peanuts and teach kids in school.
I've seen it first hand and sat on interview boards where people were being interviewed for teaching posts who had no qualifications whatsoever and the only experience they had was working at the checkout in Dunnes Stores (true story). The good experienced teachers aren't applying.

You say there can be no "flexibility" in public service pay? So you think paying people different amounts of money for doing the same job is fair?

The Muppet

fliball123 wrote: »

So when I drive I am not forced to use roads that were built by the PS, or am I not forced to go to hospital if I am sick, am I not forced to send my kid to school?? really ??

So i am forced unless I give up working then its all paid for me

You can go private with health and education but trust me you'll be paying a lot more for those services than you are now because it'll be private companies supplying the service.

Bob24

I think something has to be done. Clearly things had gotten out of hands during the celtic tiger and in many cases public wages where way too high, BUT there have been a lot of paycuts and anyone who has worked in any (public or private organisation) knows that there is no way to keep a workforce motivated after years of pay cuts/freezes and when people don't see the slightest chance to get a salary increase in the short/medium term.

I think the general public needs to decide what kind of civil service it wants. It is not possible to keep asking to achieve "more with less" and expect the civil service to be as efficient as a private orgaisation, and at the same time to deny any kind of payraise for civil servants do things like blaming Irish Water's "bonus culture" for having a pay structure where part of the income is not guaranteed and is performance based (which is what most large private sector employer are doing and if done well will improve performance).

To be clear I am not for giving blanket pay-raises to everyone, but if we want good public service I think we need to understand that if the public service is to attract (and retain) people who are qualified and motivated professionals, the State needs to put same money on the table (obviously with some strings attached).

fliball123

Godge wrote: »

No, your link says they decreased by 20% from 2012 into 2013.

The previous data re 2010 is from a different news source and is not comparable.

you said I was talking back in 2008 I have shown you it was rampant right up until 2013 I know its getting better but it was still going...

fliball123

The Muppet wrote: »

You can go private with health and education but trust me you'll be paying a lot more for those services than you are now because it'll be private companies supplying the service.

My wife has private health care thank god the days of me sitting 3 days in A&E are gone..private I pay 1k extra a year for my kid and the level of education he gets is worth it....So I ask you again why am I overpaying for public services when what you get in return is crap?

jcon1913

boatbuilder wrote: »

Yeah there is a queue of absolute monkeys who are willing to work for peanuts and teach kids in school.
I've seen it first hand and sat on interview boards where people were being interviewed for teaching posts who had no qualifications whatsoever and the only experience they had was working at the checkout in Dunnes Stores (true story). The good experienced teachers aren't applying.

You say there can be no "flexibility" in public service pay? So you think paying people different amounts of money for doing the same job is fair?

How do people like that ( ''monkeys'' ) get to an interview? Who even lets them in the door?

I didn't say there could be no flexabilty in pay. How would you build in pay cuts in Education then?

The Muppet

fliball123 wrote: »

My wife has private health care thank god the days of me sitting 3 days in A&E are gone..private I pay 1k extra a year for my kid and the level of education he gets is worth it....So I ask you again why am I overpaying for public services when what you get in return is crap?

How do you know you're overpaying, How are you coming to that conclusion?

barneystinson

jcon1913 wrote: »

In the links to the articles that I put up it says that there is a gap between public sector and private sector pay. Furthermore the articles say that there is a bigger gap between Irish public sector versus private sector workers than in many other European countries.

You say that the gap has narrowed, you have no links to articles to back up what you say.

Instead of that you have resorted to nit-picking about the basic facts.

Unfortunately the gap it too big still and will have to be reversed. Currently there is a gap in favour of public sector workers of 20% in other words they are paid 20% more than private sector workers when all factors are taken into account like pensions etc etc.

In a lot of the world the gap is the other way round - in other words public sector workers are paid 20% less that people in the private sector.

Anyway I can see I am not going to change your mind so we'll leave it at that.

So if you've actually read the stuff you linked, do you accept that the gap reported there has since then been affected by the 2010 pay cut (affecting some), the 2013 pay cut (affecting some), and the increase in working hours (affecting all)?

They're all your links - the various FEMPI Acts and the articles...

mjv2ydratu679c

Some figures from CSO

Public sector pay rates nearly 50% higher than those in private sector

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/public-sector-pay-rates-nearly-50-higher-than-those-in-private-sector-1.1907313

fliball123

The Muppet wrote: »

How do you know you're overpaying, How are you coming to that conclusion?

Well when I pay my taxes and I get phuck all in return for them. If you paid money to someone you would expect something in return..yet anything decent that I get I have to pay again for.

Godge

jcon1913 wrote: »

In the links to the articles that I put up it says that there is a gap between public sector and private sector pay. Furthermore the articles say that there is a bigger gap between Irish public sector versus private sector workers than in many other European countries.

You say that the gap has narrowed, you have no links to articles to back up what you say.

Instead of that you have resorted to nit-picking about the basic facts.

Unfortunately the gap it too big still and will have to be reversed. Currently there is a gap in favour of public sector workers of 20% in other words they are paid 20% more than private sector workers when all factors are taken into account like pensions etc etc.

In a lot of the world the gap is the other way round - in other words public sector workers are paid 20% less that people in the private sector.

Anyway I can see I am not going to change your mind so we'll leave it at that.

The problem is that your European Central Bank study was based on 2007 data as I have already pointed out, before ALL of the pay cuts and pension levys in the public service and before ALL of the pay increases since 2010 in the private sector.

Nobody knows what the premium is, nobody even knows if there is still a premium, nobody knows should there be a premium. For example, in the public sector men and women are paid equally well, but in the private sector women are paid much less than men. Should the comparison therefore be based only on men's pay as the greater equality (which we all should look for) distorts upwards public sector pay? Similarly, to what extent do we adjust for education levels? Should there be a premium for being educated? Should an adjustment be made for the fact that the public service have contracted out lower-paid cleaning and maintenance jobs?

This is the problem with the superficial comparisons made and the lack of investigative detail, there is a huge difference between the public and private sectors, why wouldn't pay be different, and how best to tell whether it is fair?

What annoys me about these threads is that rather than having a discussion about the evidence, or more particularly, the quality of the evidence, certain posters drag it down to the level of an anti-public service rant.

jobbridge4life

Joey Yellow Autograph wrote: »

Some figures from CSO

Public sector pay rates nearly 50% higher than those in private sector

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/public-sector-pay-rates-nearly-50-higher-than-those-in-private-sector-1.1907313

Broadstroke figures like that are in effect useless. They are not even remotely close to providing worthwhile comparisons.

Bob24

Joey Yellow Autograph wrote: »

Some figures from CSO

Public sector pay rates nearly 50% higher than those in private sector

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/public-sector-pay-rates-nearly-50-higher-than-those-in-private-sector-1.1907313

The only attempt to make a fair comparison is this paragraph:

"Even when you adjust for qualifications, experience and length of service, the public sector workers still enjoy a significant pay premium over their private sector counterparts,” Ibec economist Fergal O’Brien said."

And unfortunately it is the only thing in the article that is not backed up by numbers.

Now if this is correct there is indeed and issue, but the rest of the article is comparing apples to oranges.

fliball123

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Broadstroke figures like that are in effect useless. They are not even remotely close to providing worthwhile comparisons.

Hows about the broadstroke figure of we are still borrowing and over 200billion in debt? either way anyone tries to spin this we cannot afford a payrise in the public sector wage at this moment and if we could we have 4/5 areas needing money to be sorted first

The Muppet

fliball123 wrote: »

Well when I pay my taxes and I get phuck all in return for them. If you paid money to someone you would expect something in return..yet anything decent that I get I have to pay again for.

oh so you don't have anything other than a notion in you head back up your claim you are overpaying for services?

Every worker pays taxes, levies, and charges some more than others.
None of us like it and would like to pay less but we have to pay to have the services society requires to function.

Thats life You'll just have to build a bridge....

fliball123

The Muppet wrote: »

oh so you don't have anything other than a notion in you head back up your claim you are overpaying for services?

Every worker pays taxes, levies, and charges some more than others.
None of us like it and would like to pay less but we have to pay to have the services society requires to function.

Thats life You'll just have to build a bridge....

A poster sent you a link showing PS are paid 50% on average, thats not even mentioning the myriad of reports that suggest the Ireland has one of the high paid public services in the OCED.

Every worker pays taxes and expect something in return not just to feather nest 300k workers and the ex workers for overpayment and for their pensions.

Take a worker for example me and my typical day and what I phucking have to pay in taxation. and not even bringing in the cost of services such as heat and light for phuck sake

I wake up in the morning in my bed within my house
Taxes paid - Stamp duty, property tax, VAT on my bed and mattress, duvet, sheets and pillows.

I decide to have a shower
Taxes paid - VAT on the electricity, shampoo and water charges

I go down and make make breakie toast and a coffee
Taxes paid - VAT on elecy, toaster and kettle and water charges

I leave the house and jump in the car to go to work
Taxes paid - Road tax, Carbon tax and VAT on petol, Vat on insurance, VRT on car, toll bridge and NCT

I arrive into work and work till lunch 9/10 hours
Tax paid - Income tax, Usc, PRSI

I drive home - See above

Make some dinner - See above for breakie

I watch some telly
See above for using elecy add in TV license

Also other service and bills that I need to pay for
Bin service/nessecities - used to be covered by general taxation
Creche fees
ESB
GAS
Food
Clothes
Mortgage


Now after all of this I still have to pay if I go to a doctor or hospital and worse still I get the pleasure of paying for the thousands that are on the dole to go aswell.

Now you tell me buddy am I over paying for services in this country

ans - PHUCK YES I AM

What about the fact that out of the 200billion in debt only 40billion (which may decrease as time goes on) is for the banks..who is to blame for the other 160 odd billion?


That does not include the fact that we are on the ledge for ridiculous pensions schemes for the PS

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/Irish_Economy/article_1025888_printer.shtml

have a quick look at this aswell
http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2014/09/01/public-sector-the-insider-story

Rightwing

Joey Yellow Autograph wrote: »

Some figures from CSO

Public sector pay rates nearly 50% higher than those in private sector

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/public-sector-pay-rates-nearly-50-higher-than-those-in-private-sector-1.1907313

Whilst these figures are somewhat flawed, (you'd need a comparison of say a bus driver in each sector) it does reveal that either (a) private sector is underpaid or (b) public sector is overpaid.

I'm a believer that the private sector is never underpaid, which leaves us with (a).