Proposed Public sector pay rises

fliball123

Is it just me or is the timing of this a spin to get Labour back some of their core public sector votes..My biggest gripe over this is not one political or media outlet have asked the relevant question about this injustice if it goes ahead. That question being.

Where the phuck are you getting the money for pay rises when we are still borrowing 8 billion this year and we are over 200billion in debt. Mr Howlin please outline what taxes I , my kids and grand kids will have to pay for this payrise?

washman3

General Election looming... simple as.;)

fliball123

washman3 wrote: »

General Election looming... simple as.;)

True yet it doesn't excuse the lack of asking the phecker the appropriate question

barneystinson

Nice one, looks like I'll be able to stop buying Tesco own brand caviar and go back to the good stuff... :cool:

Riskymove

The Haddington Road agreement expires in 2016 so some new approach is needed. it is better to agree these in advance rather than some panic in 2016

The other measures were introduced under emergency powers legislation which will no longer apply from this year so again agreement on the future approach is needed.

fliball123

Riskymove wrote: »

The Haddington Road agreement expires in 2016 so some new approach is needed. it is better to agree these in advance rather than some panic in 2016

The other measures were introduced under emergency powers legislation which will no longer apply from this year so again agreement on the future approach is needed.

Sorry what has changed are we out of the debt and no longer running a deficit? The conditions are still there

jcon1913

fliball123 wrote: »

Is it just me or is the timing of this a spin to get Labour back some of their core public sector votes..My biggest gripe over this is not one political or media outlet have asked the relevant question about this injustice if it goes ahead. That question being.

Where the phuck are you getting the money for pay rises when we are still borrowing 8 billion this year and we are over 200billion in debt. Mr Howlin please outline what taxes I , my kids and grand kids will have to pay for this payrise?

The public sector is still way overpaid when compared to other EU countries. Maybe keep the Health service pay bills down? Something has to be done to keep the services without saddling the taxpayer with more debt.

barneystinson

jcon1913 wrote: »

The public sector is still way overpaid when compared to other EU countries. Maybe keep the Health service pay bills down? Something has to be done to keep the services without saddling the taxpayer with more debt.

Statement of fact based on comparison: any chance of a link to whatever comparison you're referring to?

Rezident

Well, as someone currently working in the public sector, I think it might have something to do with the droves of people leaving, particularly at senior levels. I've lost count of how many people have left in the last year (virtually all to the private sector, and almost all for significantly higher salaries), it's shocking. Another Leaving Card was passed around yesterday and I was joking, 'who's leaving this week'?. We are getting gutted.

I can't speak for the rest of the public sector - and maybe it should be somehow split up to reflect the clear differences between dept.s that, apparently don't do a whole lot, and those that are extremely busy (all paid the same of course) and clearly highly valued in the private sector.

fliball123

Rezident wrote: »

Well, as someone currently working in the public sector, I think it might have something to do with the droves of people leaving, particularly at senior levels. I've lost count of how many people have left in the last year (virtually all to the private sector, and almost all for significantly higher salaries), it's shocking. Another Leaving Card was passed around yesterday and I was joking, 'who's leaving this week'?. We are getting gutted.

I can't speak for the rest of the public sector - and maybe it should be somehow split up to reflect the clear differences between dept.s that, apparently don't do a whole lot, and those that are extremely busy (all paid the same of course) and clearly highly valued in the private sector.

And Jesus wept in the private sector what goes on is you are in a job one day and your redundant that next no choice about it but forcefully told you have no job...how terrible it is that the lushes in the ps are able to leave on their own terms.

Rezident

Yet another girl leaving at the start of February! Honestly, that will be close to 10 (out of 45) gone in the last year! She told me she is getting an extra 20k (London admittedly, not Dublin), but most who have left that I know are still in Dublin and they are not leaving just so that they can work longer hours in the private sector.

Hours have gotten longer here (fair enough), pay was cut by around 15% including pension levy etc. fair enough, there were a lot of cutbacks to benefits etc. a lot of little things, but they really do add up. And they were the reason we moved here. A lot of people, like myself, who moved from the private sector here for a better 'work life balance' are now seriously considering leaving because the famed 'shorter hours' are not a reality where I work (maybe they are elsewhere?) and we're getting payed less than similar jobs in financial services. Yes there is a good defined benefit pension at the end, but, I'll take the money now instead please Bob!

barneystinson

fliball123 wrote: »

And Jesus wept in the private sector what goes on is you are in a job one day and your redundant that next no choice about it but forcefully told you have no job...how terrible it is that the lushes in the ps are able to leave on their own terms.

That's not really relevant to the point he made, but don't let that minor inconvenience hinder a good rant...

barneystinson

Rezident wrote: »

Yes there is a good defined benefit pension at the end, but, I'll take the money now instead please Bob!

I wouldn't be counting my chickens on the pension either, I'll believe it if/when I see it in 30+ years' time...

fliball123

barneystinson wrote: »

That's not really relevant to the point he made, but don't let that minor inconvenience hinder a good rant...

Sorry yes it is..the reality is the private sector do not do soft landings when a company is borrowing and broke it smacks into a wall and the employees go with it..This person is saying how terrible it is that they are leaving on their own terms and yet fail to see how terrible it has been for those in the private sector who have had no choice but to hit that wall and go on the dole...There is a correlation

Rightwing

Rezident wrote: »

Yet another girl leaving at the start of February! Honestly, that will be close to 10 (out of 45) gone in the last year! She told me she is getting an extra 20k (London admittedly, not Dublin), but most who have left that I know are still in Dublin and they are not leaving just so that they can work longer hours in the private sector.

Hours have gotten longer here (fair enough), pay was cut by around 15% including pension levy etc. fair enough, there were a lot of cutbacks to benefits etc. a lot of little things, but they really do add up. And they were the reason we moved here. A lot of people, like myself, who moved from the private sector here for a better 'work life balance' are now seriously considering leaving because the famed 'shorter hours' are not a reality where I work (maybe they are elsewhere?) and we're getting payed less than similar jobs in financial services. Yes there is a good defined benefit pension at the end, but, I'll take the money now instead please Bob!

Probably the ambitious people leaving. Move back to the private sector asap. The longer one spends in the PS, the less employable they become imo. The public sector is for cruise control operators.

robp

fliball123 wrote: »

Sorry yes it is..the reality is the private sector do not do soft landings when a company is borrowing and broke it smacks into a wall and the employees go with it..This person is saying how terrible it is that they are leaving on their own terms and yet fail to see how terrible it has been for those in the private sector who have had no choice but to hit that wall and go on the dole...There is a correlation

Its not a fair comparison. In many areas of the private sector job security matches the public sector. If you work in work in health, accountancy, farming or IT you have job security equal that to a public sector. Even if public sector lay-offs were possible they would not happen on a large scale as there is little demand to close hospitals, schools, libraries or museums where the large bulk of the public sector works.

fliball123

robp wrote: »

Its not a fair comparison. In many areas of the private sector job security matches the public sector. If you work in work in health, accountancy, farming or IT you have job security equal that to a public sector. Even if public sector lay-offs were possible they would not happen on a large scale as there is little demand to close hospitals, schools, libraries or museums where the large bulk of the public sector works.

yet these comparisons that you state are not fair or possible were done twice just before the crash during the benchmarking exercise ..so is it only fair to do this if the wage of the PS is going up?

No one in the private sector has job security or pay rises based on time served or a gaurenteed pension at the end of your working life

Riskymove

fliball123 wrote: »

Sorry what has changed are we out of the debt and no longer running a deficit? The conditions are still there

The Government has already indicated the "end of austerity"

It isn't connected to the existence of a deficit

Howlin mentioned that he would not be able to go into the Dail to declare that the emergency still existed as required by the Act

jcon1913

barneystinson wrote: »

Statement of fact based on comparison: any chance of a link to whatever comparison you're referring to?

Here ya go

Article in the Guardian that bastion of Free Market Capitalism telling us that perhaps the public service is paid too much

http://www.theguardian.com/business/ireland-business-blog-with-lisa-ocarroll/2011/sep/13/ireland-civil-servants-pay

Heres a link to a study by the European Central Bank

http://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/pdf/scpwps/ecbwp1406.pdf

Conclusion in the Abstract ...

'.....with Greece, Ireland, Italy, Portugal and Spain exhibiting

higher public sector premia than other countries.''
.

Heres one that says that the top guys are overpaid but the bottom tier are underpaid:

http://www.thejournal.ie/top-irish-civil-servants-paid-more-than-eu-counterparts-277889-Nov2011/

Riskymove

fliball123 wrote: »

No one in the private sector has job security or pay rises based on time served or a gaurenteed pension at the end of your working life

you have had many threads where it has pointed out that these things happen.

It's unfortunate that this has just quickly descended, like ,many before, into the usual nonsense and digs

barneystinson

fliball123 wrote: »

yet these comparisons that you state are not fair or possible were done twice just before the crash during the benchmarking exercise ..so is it only fair to do this if the wage of the PS is going up?

In what parts of the private sector have wage rates fallen by 15-20%?

Del2005

Rezident wrote: »

Well, as someone currently working in the public sector, I think it might have something to do with the droves of people leaving, particularly at senior levels. I've lost count of how many people have left in the last year (virtually all to the private sector, and almost all for significantly higher salaries), it's shocking. Another Leaving Card was passed around yesterday and I was joking, 'who's leaving this week'?. We are getting gutted.

I can't speak for the rest of the public sector - and maybe it should be somehow split up to reflect the clear differences between dept.s that, apparently don't do a whole lot, and those that are extremely busy (all paid the same of course) and clearly highly valued in the private sector.

TBH senior people leaving the civil service is a good thing, they are the people with high pay and brilliant terms and conditions , if they are quitting and not getting redundancy or early retirement. Then we can announce a load of new jobs just before the election or if the country was a business when they are back in profit.

Riskymove

jcon1913 wrote: »

Here ya go

articles are relating to 2011

professore

In many areas of the private sector job security matches the public sector. If you work in work in health, accountancy, farming or IT you have job security equal that to a public sector.

For someone who lived through the dotcom crash of '01 this is complete nonsense. IT has huge booms and busts. It's like saying the building sector back in '08.

jcon1913

Riskymove wrote: »

articles are relating to 2011

Did I miss something? Did the Public Service get pay rises since 2011?

You are on here knocking peoples arguments - can you back up what you are saying yourself?

fliball123

Riskymove wrote: »

The Government has already indicated the "end of austerity"

It isn't connected to the existence of a deficit

Howlin mentioned that he would not be able to go into the Dail to declare that the emergency still existed as required by the Act

This all depends on what you constitute an emergency ..

The debt going up month after month
Debt to GDP going up month after month
And still borrowing 8 billion this year...to me and any other sane person paying for the above this is a phucking emergency and how those phuckwit Howlin deal with it..by increasing the borrowing to pay payrises to on average, or by mean or median one of highest paid sectors in the OCED ...

Yet the likes of the quantitative easing effects that are coming have not even been taken into consideration by this phuckwit and will make growth in our economy a lot harder as our main export market England sterling will remain the same and the Euro will plummet further making this more expensive and until we understand the downfall from this, decisions such as ps payrises should not even be contemplated

robp

fliball123 wrote: »

yet these comparisons that you state are not fair or possible were done twice just before the crash during the benchmarking exercise ..so is it only fair to do this if the wage of the PS is going up?

No one in the private sector has job security or pay rises based on time served or a gaurenteed pension at the end of your working life

In certain sector they have limited job security as do the public sector. You can lose your job in the public sector. I know people in the public sector who have lost their jobs. It happens.

professore wrote: »

For someone who lived through the dotcom crash of '01 this is complete nonsense. IT has huge booms and busts. It's like saying the building sector back in '08.

It has cycles yes but at the moment there is excellent security. In the same way during severe economic crises you see large scale lay offs in public sectors like Greece. Security is a product of supply and demand.

Riskymove

fliball123 wrote: »

This all depends on what you constitute an emergency ..

The legislation defines it...it is mostly connected to the end of the bailout

It isn't defined on your opinion...or mine

Riskymove

jcon1913 wrote: »

Did I miss something? Did the Public Service get pay rises since 2011?

no they had cuts

fliball123

robp wrote: »

In certain sector they have limited job security as do the public sector. You can lose your job in the public sector. I know people in the public sector who have lost their jobs. It happens.




It has cycles yes but at the moment there is excellent security. In the same way during severe economic crises you see large scale lay offs in public sectors like Greece. Security is a product of supply and demand.

As in contractors..they are not real public sector employees and we also have those in spades in the private sector

jcon1913

Riskymove wrote: »

no they had cuts

Link here:

http://www.per.gov.ie/public-service-pay-policy/

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2009

The purpose of the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2009 was to introduce a number of financial emergency measures in the public interest. These measures were the making of a new deduction from the remuneration of public servants who are members of a public service pension scheme or who are entitled to a benefit under such a scheme or receive a payment in lieu of membership; provisions to allow public bodies to reduce the professional fees paid by them to external service providers; changes in the early childcare supplement and in the Farm Waste Management Scheme.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (No 2) Act 2009

This Act provided for reductions in public service pay with effect from 1 January 2010. The rate of reduction varied by salary level but amounted to an average of around 6.5%.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2010

This Act provided for a further reduction to the remuneration of members of the Government. The Act also provided for a reduction to the amounts payable by way of pension to retired public servants.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (Amendment) Act 2011

This Act provided for the reduction of judicial pay and pensions, following a constitutional amendment. The Act also further reduced the pay of members of the Government, whose members had voluntarily reduced their pay upon taking office, prior to this legislation coming into force.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2013

This Act provided for a reduction in remuneration for public servants earning more than €65,000, and a further reduction in the amount paid to those in receipt of a public service pension in excess of € 32,500. The Act also provided for a suspension of incremental progression until 2016 for all public servants, unless they are covered by a collective agreement modifying the terms of the incremental suspension which has been registered with the Labour Relations Commission.

So................

The only people in the public service who took cuts after 2011 were those paid over €65,000.