Off Topic Thread too point uh

swiwi_

swiwi_ wrote: »

How does being part of the EU or not affect this?

I probably should have paid more attention (just don't care enough I suppose), but I'd be interested to know compelling reasons why Britain should definitely have remained in the EU.

Right now an English person can work in any country in Europe without any restriction. When this goes, English people will find it much harder to work anywhere in Europe. Ask those without an EU passport how easy it is to get a job in the EU.

Huge numbers of PHD's and research grants are funded by the EU, not because they are immediately profitable, but because they are useful to humanity. Those within the UK will no longer have access to this and the sentiment strongly indicates that this will have a massive impact on science and technology in the UK. Think of how many companies and innovations have come from these research grants.

Finally the EU is very strict on how food and goods are managed, transported and prepared. The standard in the EU for example is far far higher than the US. To trade within the EU you must reach these standards so England will have to comply with anything they export, but they don't need to comply for goods and services locally which will almost certainly see profits take priority of quality.

It turns the other way also. London is a massive "EU Hub" for finance and technology and this is based on free movement of workers into London (London produces no where close to enough educated workers to supplement requirements). Amazingly Immigrants in the UK account for a net profit due to the sheer volume of them performing skilled labor. This will be much more difficult and many new businesses could well go elsewhere (hopfully here).

All the leave promises are misleading or unenforceable. It's lunacy on a countrywide scale.

Buer

Deleted User wrote: »

Ask those without an EU passport how easy it is to get a job in the EU.

Yeah, swiwi....do your research!

:pac:

Buer

Buer wrote: »

Yeah, swiwi....do your research!

:pac:

Ha. Didn't even cop that as I was writing. Swiwi is either in a specialist area or earns over 60k per year. Or he married someone with an EU passport.

If it wasn't one of those three then he can probably tell us exactly how hard it was.

swiwi_

Deleted User wrote: »

Ha. Didn't even cop that as I was writing. Swiwi is either in a specialist area or earns over 60k per year. Or he married someone with an EU passport.

If it wasn't one of those three then he can probably tell us exactly how hard it was.

Ok...so when I arrived in Ireland I had my good ol' NZ passport. Got one of those "work authorisations" that no longer exist, from memory my area of work was on the list of things Ireland needed more of. In theory I should have been allowed to work in Ireland via my wife being Swiss (which has a deal with the EU), but Ireland broke EU laws for a number of years on this topic, until it was taken to the European court and Ireland lost: so then I got an "EU partner" visa, which was free rather than the ridiculous sums for the work authorisation. Then I became Swiss...

Swan Curry

This whole ****show has had a lot of low points but imo the worst was the brushing over of Jo Cox's assassination. She was murdered by a fascist with links to the British far-right and South African pro-apartheid movements because of her politics, and after the inital shock the press have tried their hardest to portray him as a Lee Harvey Oswald loner type. Seeing Farage celebrate that they won "Without a bullet being fired" was sickening.

swiwi_

Swan Curry wrote: »

This whole ****show has had a lot of low points but imo the worst was the brushing over of Jo Cox's assassination. She was murdered by a fascist with links to the British far-right and South African pro-apartheid movements because of her politics, and after the inital shock the press have tried their hardest to portray him as a Lee Harvey Oswald loner type. Seeing Farage celebrate that they won "Without a bullet being fired" was sickening. Hopefully one day he ends up like his fellow fascist Mussolini.

??are you suggesting it wasn't Lee Harvey Oswald-type, but rather an organised "hit" by the British far right...

Swan Curry

swiwi_ wrote: »

??are you suggesting it wasn't Lee Harvey Oswald-type, but rather an organised "hit" by the British far right...

The extreme rhetoric that labels opposing politicians as traitors gave Mair the reason to carry out the murder. I believe he acted alone, but the Tories' appeasement of the far-right gives legitimacy to the ideology that Mair believes.

swiwi_

swiwi_ wrote: »

??are you suggesting it wasn't Lee Harvey Oswald-type, but rather an organised "hit" by the British far right...

It definitely wasn't a 'hit'. But pictures like this galvanise hate and push those on the fringe into action:

TeoReid

Brief change of topic if I may, is it possible to get a day pass for sky sports in Ireland?

daveup

So many puzzling lines coming out of Brexit.. The issue of trade agreements. So potentially the EU can now impose duties on British products exported into Europe and Britian can impose duties on products imported into Britain. So that cancels out and trade will continue as normal.
The value of the pound dropping. That's just gamblers putting their money into gold and commodities for a time before getting involved in the currency market again so the pound will gradually return to a norm over the next weeks/months.
So that's a couple of things. But what is most destabilizing is that David Cameron simply quitting. David you promised the people a vote and then when they don't vote the way you like you simply quit rather than accepting what the people say and working to ensure a bright new future.
As for the Scots well I am totally at a loss. Nicola Sturgeon is an embarrassment. Yes the Scots voted Remain but for her to come out and say that another Scottish independence referendum is a probability is just adding fuel to the fire of pure instability. Surely you sit quiet and see how things pan out.
And then Jeremy Corbyn says nothing about anything and Boris and Nigel are best ignoring. Their argument over immigration is utter rubbish. Every country needs immigration. The whole point of this referendum, as I saw it, was closer integration with EU (as year in and year out controls are moved to Brussels) or a return to a sovereign state where you can set your own taxes and control your own assets.
Its a very divisive argument. And I suppose that in itself is no help. Everybody will have their opinion. The point is that the decision is made now and there is no point in these 'politicians' crying about. Get on with it rather than quitting. What are you like David.

daveup

So many puzzling lines coming out of Brexit.. The issue of trade agreements. So potentially the EU can now impose duties on British products exported into Europe and Britian can impose duties on products imported into Britain. So that cancels out and trade will continue as normal.
The value of the pound dropping. That's just gamblers putting their money into gold and commodities for a time before getting involved in the currency market again so the pound will gradually return to a norm over the next weeks/months.
So that's a couple of things. But what is most destabilizing is that David Cameron simply quitting. David you promised the people a vote and then when they don't vote the way you like you simply quit rather than accepting what the people say and working to ensure a bright new future.
As for the Scots well I am totally at a loss. Nicola Sturgeon is an embarrassment. Yes the Scots voted Remain but for her to come out and say that another Scottish independence referendum is a probability is just adding fuel to the fire of pure instability. Surely you sit quiet and see how things pan out.
And then Jeremy Corbyn says nothing about anything and Boris and Nigel are best ignoring. Their argument over immigration is utter rubbish. Every country needs immigration. The whole point of this referendum, as I saw it, was closer integration with EU (as year in and year out controls are moved to Brussels) or a return to a sovereign state where you can set your own taxes and control your own assets.
Its a very divisive argument. And I suppose that in itself is no help. Everybody will have their opinion. The point is that the decision is made now and there is no point in these 'politicians' crying about it. Get on with it rather than quitting. What are you like David.

Stheno

TeoReid wrote: »

Brief change of topic if I may, is it possible to get a day pass for sky sports in Ireland?

No a month is the least you can sign up for

errlloyd

swiwi_ wrote: »

How does being part of the EU or not affect this?

I probably should have paid more attention (just don't care enough I suppose), but I'd be interested to know compelling reasons why Britain should definitely have remained in the EU.

In reality you are correct. The UK could choose to remain in the common market and still enjoy many of the perks they currently do without having to pay. However to remain in the common market they would also have to accept the free movement of labour, therefore not actually ending their immigration annoyances, and I believe they would also still be subject to some EU legislation without getting a vote.

However, the voters didn't vote for that. The voters voted for no immigration and protection of UK exports. That means tariffs being introduced limiting the ease of trade, and also immigration laws being introduced limiting who a company can hire. Airbus' primary concern with their manufacturing is that they have an EU borderless office which allows their experts to move freely, and it will be a pain in the ass for them. The CEO of Airbus was on BBC today saying he thought there was a strong chance manufacturing would begin to move out of Wales in the next few years (this was after the result, not an empty threat before the result).

There are also a number of weird tax loopholes that make EU memebership important for banking. The reason companies like Morgan Stanley are rumoured to be moving their HQ to Ireland or Germany is so they can remain EU tax resident, which allows them to funnel their tax through the Netherlands in that way we were supposed to make illegal a long time ago (I think).

Generally I know the UK is a net contributor to the EU. Like Switzerland and Norway I know it will be just fine on it's own. I guess it is just a shame that Britain (who were doing a genuinely good job lifting this part of the world with them) left.

Part of this is a huge victory for extremism - the fear of refugees was influential in the vote.

I also think morally it is hugely challenging for England. They put on a strong show of "better together" 2 years ago in Scotland, and now two years on they want out and Scotland wants in. I can see Scotland leaving, and becoming a very poor country - but a country I imagine the EU would welcome with open arms and help to it's feet (as it did with Ireland).

Anyway, it's a disappointing day. Our nation is merely a rock in the North Atlantic. Our significance is drawn from the bloc of friendly nations around us. One of them walked away today.

wp_rathead

TeoReid wrote: »

Brief change of topic if I may, is it possible to get a day pass for sky sports in Ireland?

here
http://www.skysports.ie/watch/get-sky

daveup

errlloyd wrote: »

I The voters voted for no immigration and protection of UK exports.
Part of this is a huge victory for extremism - the fear of refugees was influential in the vote. .

Utter babble.

errlloyd

daveup wrote: »

Utter babble.

Haha, alright mate. The polling data indicates immigration was a key issue. And for the most part it was the scary brown type of immigrants who are coming from middle eastern war zones.

But if you have a different theory I'm all ears.

daveup

I think you listen to politicians more often than you should. And maybe exposed to nigel farage too often. Two points. Cameron set this vote as a part of his mandate for government. It initially was never about immigration. It was always about control of your own country. They, being politicians, forgot the point. So it turned to stupidity.

Remember back to our friend kenny who went all out on lisbon. He proved a point. The electorate when asked to decide resent being told how to the decide by the person who asked them for their opinion. Its a human thing.

molloyjh

errlloyd wrote: »

In reality you are correct. The UK could choose to remain in the common market and still enjoy many of the perks they currently do without having to pay. However to remain in the common market they would also have to accept the free movement of labour, therefore not actually ending their immigration annoyances, and I believe they would also still be subject to some EU legislation without getting a vote.

They'll have to adhere to a lot of EU legislation without any power to influence it. Any products they sell to EU countries will need to conform to EU law. If the want free trade they'll simply have to accept the free movement of people which apparently is the single biggest issue people have. So will that mean no free trade, meaning tariffs and legislation they have no input into?

The big problem with the Leave vote is that absolutely nobody knows what it will actually mean. Nobody. And how can you make an informed decision about that!?

errlloyd

daveup wrote: »

I think you listen to politicians more often than you should. And maybe exposed to nigel farage too often. Two points. Cameron set this vote as a part of his mandate for government. It initially was never about immigration. It was always about control of your own country. They, being politicians, forgot the point. So it turned to stupidity.

Remember back to our friend kenny who went all out on lisbon. He proved a point. The electorate when asked to decide resent being told how to the decide by the person who asked them for their opinion. Its a human thing.

Sure there is an element of just anti establishment when an electorate rejects a referendum. Obviously in Irelands case it had nothing to do with Kenny, as Fine Gael were in opposition when we voted on Lisbon, it was Cowen the electorate rebelled against.

I'm also sure some voters were influenced by a frustration with EU law makers, but a small minority tbh. There is an inherent contradiction when you say that voters are rebelling against their own government, and complaining their own government doesnt have enough power!

Regardless of why the referendum was called, the stats and rhetoric indicate that Islamophobia and xenophobia played a massive role. This is based of me reading of the British Indo, Guardian, Economist and FT. If you're suggesting that no one was motivated to vote "leave" based on immigration you're simply wrong.

molloyjh

daveup wrote: »

I think you listen to politicians more often than you should. And maybe exposed to nigel farage too often. Two points. Cameron set this vote as a part of his mandate for government. It initially was never about immigration. It was always about control of your own country. They, being politicians, forgot the point. So it turned to stupidity.

Remember back to our friend kenny who went all out on lisbon. He proved a point. The electorate when asked to decide resent being told how to the decide by the person who asked them for their opinion. Its a human thing.

???????

daveup

molloyjh wrote: »

They'll have to adhere to a lot of EU legislation without any power to influence it. Any products they sell to EU countries will need to conform to EU law. If the want free trade they'll simply have to accept the free movement of people which apparently is the single biggest issue people have. So will that mean no free trade, meaning tariffs and legislation they have no input into?

The big problem with the Leave vote is that absolutely nobody knows what it will actually mean. Nobody. And how can you make an informed decision about that!?

Trade is commerce and commerce is money and money is always about competitiveness.

The biggest problems for the EU is nothing related to this. The biggest issues is how the EU in the past (yesterday) simply sliced up a european cake. Now the UK is saying I don't want to share my piece of cake. And we are talking on who own fishing rights, we are talking about restrictions on beef produce or any other produce. Europe is a controlled environment. You can now plant sugar cane where you couldn't in the past. The rules are out the window.

What is in the window is being competitive. If you are competitive you win. So instead of living on european grants to contain produce you can in fact sell to the third world who are in fact starving while these idiots in brussels continue their next stages of centralization.

Stheno

wp_rathead wrote: »

here
http://www.skysports.ie/watch/get-sky

Whoops sorry for my uninformed post

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

They'll have to adhere to a lot of EU legislation without any power to influence it. Any products they sell to EU countries will need to conform to EU law. If the want free trade they'll simply have to accept the free movement of people which apparently is the single biggest issue people have. So will that mean no free trade, meaning tariffs and legislation they have no input into?

The big problem with the Leave vote is that absolutely nobody knows what it will actually mean. Nobody. And how can you make an informed decision about that!?

Again, using a real world example. Switzerland is a member of the EEA from outside the EU. They have power to influence EU the law. They don't have to accept the free movement of people (although they lost access to Erasmus over that for a short while). The UK is economically far more important to Europe than any other non-EU neighbour, it's perfectly reasonable to expect them to get at least a comparable deal.

We don't know what deal will be reached. That's why I think it was objectively a bad idea to leave, expecially as we don't even know who will be negotiating it. However it's perfectly reasonable (and I think likely) to suggest they could end up better off outside.

Felix Jones is God

Stheno wrote: »

Whoops sorry for my uninformed post

I actually think you're correct, if that's the tv now package it's not available in Ireland

kuang1

Felix Jones is God wrote: »

I actually think you're correct, if that's the tv now package it's not available in Ireland

Yup.
Available in UK and Channel Islands only.

Buer

daveup wrote: »

So that's a couple of things. But what is most destabilizing is that David Cameron simply quitting. David you promised the people a vote and then when they don't vote the way you like you simply quit rather than accepting what the people say and working to ensure a bright new future.

He had no choice but to quit. He had gone to Brussels and negotiated a specific package with the EU for Britain. He had campaigned for it to be implemented. A referendum went to the nation which is probably the most influential decision on British politics in many voters lives. And they flat out rejected it. It was a rejection of the direction that Cameron wanted to take the country as leader.

When the electorate state that they do not want to go in the direction that you want to take the country on such a massive issue, it's a vote of no confidence from his nation not to mention the strong rumours of late that his own party were set to table a vote of no confidence in him. The moment the result was announced he had to go or he'd have been pushed just as quickly.

pickarooney

So does someone else have to step up with a spoon and pretend they wanted to eat this **** pudding all along?

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

He had no choice but to quit. He had gone to Brussels and negotiated a specific package with the EU for Britain. He had campaigned for it to be implemented. A referendum went to the nation which is probably the most influential decision on British politics in many voters lives. And they flat out rejected it. It was a rejection of the direction that Cameron wanted to take the country as leader.

When the electorate state that they do not want to go in the direction that you want to take the country on such a massive issue, it's a vote of no confidence from his nation not to mention the strong rumours of late that his own party were set to table a vote of no confidence in him. The moment the result was announced he had to go or he'd have been pushed just as quickly.

Were they? They all signed a letter asking him to stay on, including Johnson and Gove.

I don't blame him for going at all though. It's going to be a massively tought job for the next few years. I wouldn't be surprised to see Osbourne follow.

DGRulz

kuang1 wrote: »

Yup.
Available in UK and Channel Islands only.

I think, if you by a now TV box you can buy the SS day passes in eBay.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Again, using a real world example. Switzerland is a member of the EEA from outside the EU. They have power to influence EU the law. They don't have to accept the free movement of people (although they lost access to Erasmus over that for a short while). The UK is economically far more important to Europe than any other non-EU neighbour, it's perfectly reasonable to expect them to get at least a comparable deal.

We don't know what deal will be reached. That's why I think it was objectively a bad idea to leave, expecially as we don't even know who will be negotiating it. However it's perfectly reasonable (and I think likely) to suggest they could end up better off outside.

https://www.gov.uk/eu-eea

Switzerland is neither an EU nor EEA member but is part of the single market - this means Swiss nationals have the same rights to live and work in the UK as other EEA nationals.

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home/themen/fza_schweiz-eu-efta.html

The right of free movement is complemented by the mutual recognition of professional qualifications, by the right to buy property, and by the coordination of social security systems. The same rules also apply to citizens of EFTA member states.

https://www.ch.ch/en/working-switzerland-eu-efta/

Working in Switzerland as a citizen of an EU/EFTA member state

Citizens from EU-27* states enjoy full freedom of movement. This means that citizens of those countries are free to travel to Switzerland, and to live and work here. Special rules apply to citizens of Croatia, which joined the EU on 1 July 2013.

Switzerland do have to accept Free Movement of people. It's basically the first condition of Single Market Entry.

I agree that it's reasonable that the UK will get a similar deal. Which will of course involve continuation of 3 of the main 'Leave' issues.

• Freedom of Movement of People
• Acceptance of EU Regulations and Laws (with even less of a say in them!)
• Large contributions to the EU budget

Worth watching Newsnight last night to see the 'Leave' campaigner (Daniel Hannan) rowing back on the immigration issue. "We never said that we could stop immigration outside of the EU, just that it was a problem within the EU".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5jTRoySFfo

approx 1 min in