Off Topic Thread too point uh

Dave_The_Sheep

Deleted User wrote: »

Wrong, we'd probably only play Ireland's Call!

Ah, bollocks to that. You're on your own lads!

molloyjh

Deleted User wrote: »

Helped no doubt by an absolutely toxic campaign on both sides.

One side screaming "look at all these immigrants" and the other shouting "wow have you seen the size of that shark?".

Never once was anything positive presented by Remain. Nobody in my locality knows what the benefits to remaining would have meant to them. Nobody spoke about the reasons for the EU. Nobody ever mentioned the value accrued to us all by working together and closely so. Nobody falsified the 'democratic deficit' nonsense by explaining how the EU and the Commission works and is elected.

All of it was Fear. Fear of the unknown vs Fear of the immigrants.

And the worst bit is that the latter was scarier for the majority of the population!

Democracy works when we can make informed decisions. That's one of the main reasons we have a representative democracy. We choose people to make decisions for us that are best for us.

Ah I used to be interested in politics but I've come to the conclusion that the majority of people have absolutely zero interest in making informed decisions. A clever marketing campaign with wonderful one line slogans is far more effective at getting people on your side than a rational and reasonable argument. We've seen examples of this before and will again. It's turned me off any involvement in politics at all.

In a time when we are better educated than ever before and have more access to information than ever before the idea that politicians are somehow responsible for peoples levels of awareness/ignorance is a ridiculous cop-out. The simple fact is that people are lazy. They could do research themselves, they just don't want to. They want the benefits of democracy without the responsibilities of it. They'd rather blame someone than work proactively to resolve issues.

Podge_irl

molloyjh wrote: »

Ah I used to be interested in politics but I've come to the conclusion that the majority of people have absolutely zero interest in making informed decisions. A clever marketing campaign with wonderful one line slogans is far more effective at getting people on your side than a rational and reasonable argument. We've seen examples of this before and will again. It's turned me off any involvement in politics at all.

In a time when we are better educated than ever before and have more access to information than ever before the idea that politicians are somehow responsible for peoples levels of awareness/ignorance is a ridiculous cop-out. The simple fact is that people are lazy. They could do research themselves, they just don't want to. They want the benefits of democracy without the responsibilities of it. They'd rather blame someone than work proactively to resolve issues.

Referenda, while a fine idea in theory, simply do not work in practice as far as I'm concerned.

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

Ah I used to be interested in politics but I've come to the conclusion that the majority of people have absolutely zero interest in making informed decisions. A clever marketing campaign with wonderful one line slogans is far more effective at getting people on your side than a rational and reasonable argument. We've seen examples of this before and will again. It's turned me off any involvement in politics at all.

It's the same in all walks of life. The most deserving charities, the ones that save the most lives with the least cash lose billions vs charities that figure out a good marketing 'hook' or ploy.

Marketing trumps all.

molloyjh wrote: »

In a time when we are better educated than ever before and have more access to information than ever before the idea that politicians are somehow responsible for peoples levels of awareness/ignorance is a ridiculous cop-out. The simple fact is that people are lazy. They could do research themselves, they just don't want to. They want the benefits of democracy without the responsibilities of it. They'd rather blame someone than work proactively to resolve issues.

Exactly. And we have a perfectly set up system to allow us to do that! A representative democracy.

We make a decision once every couple of years on who to entrust with our decision making. We choose a representative, empowering them to make judgement calls on our behalf. They represent us at the negotiating table, they take the time that we don't have to study legal documents and weigh up consequences giving decisions due attention, because if they don't, there is a whole horde of us waiting to crucify them for a bad decision.

Plebiscites are great when an adequately informed debate is available, and informed decisions are taken by all involved. I posted this elsewhere, but it is an important issue with respect to Plebiscites and the calls for 'direct democracy' or insults about 'democratic deficits'.

There was a caller on Radio 5 this morning who's vote in the referendum was worth exactly what mine was*.

He said he voted Leave because he believed that once Turkey joined the EU, that 12million Turks would come to the UK and that nobody would stop them.

For enormously important decisions like today's, if the referendum debate is not held to a high enough standard, and not well fact checked etc then its positively dangerous to offer misinformed voters the opportunity to make the decisions. Imagine if we treated patients with plebiscites? And if we allowed Homeopaths and 'Alternative Medicine' spooks constantly discuss their thoughts and offer them up as 'as worthwhile' as the Doctors who's opinions we counted on previously?

*and there is no other way that we can possibly do this!

errlloyd

Ugh, could this hinder a potential all island rwc bid.

kuang1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And if we allowed Homeopaths and 'Alternative Medicine' spooks constantly discuss their thoughts and offer them up as 'as worthwhile' as the Doctors who's opinions we counted on previously?

*and there is no other way that we can possibly do this!

Well I'm not having that.

I agree with the point you're making but you lose me big time here.
I know jack about homeopathy, but I can tell you that acupuncture saved me when "doctors who's opinions we counted on previously" let me down in a big, big way.

So while I appreciate and totally agree with your general point, your analogy sucks major ass imo.

kuang1

kuang1 wrote: »

Well I'm not having that.

I agree with the point you're making but you lose me big time here.
I know jack about homeopathy, but I can tell you that acupuncture saved me when "doctors who's opinions we counted on previously" let me down in a big, big way.

So while I appreciate and totally agree with your general point, your analogy sucks major ass imo.

You have made my point for me beautifully.

kuang1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You have made my point for me beautifully.

By agreeing with you?

You're essentially referring to modern scientific-based medicine being the only mode of medical treatment that can be trusted. And that any other mode of medical care is not to be trusted, nor are any advocates of said 'alternative' medicines to be taken seriously.
Is that viewpoint in itself not one of bigotry?

Or am I putting words in your mouth?
Apologies if so.

Felix Jones is God

I think what he is saying is that homeopathy is a load of ****....or maybe I'm putting that in his mouth
Acupuncture has benefits, no doubt, but reiki and homeopathy... rubbish

kuang1

kuang1 wrote: »

By agreeing with you?

You're essentially referring to modern scientific-based medicine being the only mode of medical treatment that can be trusted. And that any other mode of medical care is not to be trusted, nor are any advocates of said 'alternative' medicines to be taken seriously.
Is that viewpoint in itself not one of bigotry?

Or am I putting words in your mouth?
Apologies if so.

Once something is proved to work, it becomes medicine. Proof is not anecdotes. Anecdotes are not Proof.

Science is self correcting.

Also, Bigotry?

Podge_irl

Acupuncture is actually quite difficult to scientifically study as it is rather hard to do double blind tests. However, in all lines of medicine, it is never as simple as "I got better so this works".

Homeopathy is a complete and utter pile of absolute horse manure.

Synode

Was kind of expecting this based on the polls the last week or so but I'm still shocked. Cameron will go down as the man responsible for breaking apart the UK.

If Sterling gets anywhere close to 1 for 1 I'm going on a spending spree

Synode

Synode wrote: »

Was kind of expecting this based on the polls the last week or so but I'm still shocked. Cameron will go down as the man responsible for breaking apart the UK.

If Sterling gets anywhere close to 1 for 1 I'm going on a spending spree

If anything Sterling is coping much better than EUR in the markets this morning!

EURGBP @ 0.8 at the moment (was 0.76 last night)

awec

What is with people going on about "unaccountable faceless beauracrats" and the likes when it comes to talking about MEPs?

They are elected politicians...

Podge_irl

Deleted User wrote: »

If anything Sterling is coping much better than EUR in the markets this morning!

EURGBP @ 0.8 at the moment (was 0.76 last night)

EUR is strengthening against the GBP all the same. SNB can't be having a fun time of it trying to maintain the EUR/CHF exchange rate.

kuang1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Once something is proved to work, it becomes medicine. Proof is not anecdotes. Anecdotes are not Proof.

Science is self correcting.

Also, Bigotry?

Sorry...bigotry misused there...too strong for what I intended.
Narrow-minded and prejudiced might be more accurate.

You're correct of course, anecdotes are not proof.

But the scientific realm has things conveniently sewn up there, because "proof" by defintion (in medical sense) requires a scientific variety of said proof.

Therefore any mode of medicine that does not have itself established within and around science at root/origin level is destined to be forever "debunked" by scientists.

Science is merely one singular viewpoint on life/health/existence.
There are others just as valid.

However capitalism, commercialism, profit, lobbyists etc etc ensure that the public at large is ushered into thinking/believing that if something can't be "scientifically proven" then it's not to be trusted.

Hang on my tin-foil hat just fell off...

Synode

Deleted User wrote: »

If anything Sterling is coping much better than EUR in the markets this morning!

EURGBP @ 0.8 at the moment (was 0.76 last night)

Sterling has gone from $1.48 to $1.39 (and falling) overnight. It's being hammered (granted Euro is suffering also but not as bad)

Neil3030

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If anything Sterling is coping much better than EUR in the markets this morning!

EURGBP @ 0.8 at the moment (was 0.76 last night)

Very surprised by this tbh. Maybe the European economy will take an initial hit but stabilise a bit quicker. I can't see the UK enjoying any sense of stability for some, what with a new PM, article 50 negotiations and a likely Scottish independence ref to follow.

Podge_irl

awec wrote: »

What is with people going on about "unaccountable faceless beauracrats" and the likes when it comes to talking about MEPs?

They are elected politicians...

MEPs don't really hold a lot of power. Because they were never supposed to because the EU wasn't supposed to be a supreme government it was supposed to be a supranational entity. It's democratic in the sense that national governments appoint people to it. It's not really and different from the civil service.

kuang1

kuang1 wrote: »

Sorry...bigotry misused there...too strong for what I intended.
Narrow-minded and prejudiced might be more accurate.

You're correct of course, anecdotes are not proof.

But the scientific realm has things conveniently sewn up there, because "proof" by defintion (in medical sense) requires a scientific variety of said proof.

Therefore any mode of medicine that does not have itself established within and around science at root/origin level is destined to be forever "debunked" by scientists.

Right. You're grand there.

Synode

Synode wrote: »

Sterling has gone from $1.48 to $1.39 (and falling) overnight. It's being hammered (granted Euro is suffering also but not as bad)

Sterling was at $1.35 3 hours ago. It's rallying well vs the dollar since then.

FTSE closed ~ 6300 last night, opened closer to 5900 but has been floating between 6000 and 6100 since then.

Podge_irl

Deleted User wrote: »

Sterling was at $1.35 3 hours ago. It's rallying well vs the dollar since then.

FTSE closed ~ 6300 last night, opened closer to 5900 but has been floating between 6000 and 6100 since then.

It's still down 7%. It's only rallying well compared to the phenomenal hit it took on the back of this being such a surprise. Some element of rallying was inevitable once the immediate panic subsided but it's still all a bit rubbish.

Buer

kuang1 wrote: »

Science is merely one singular viewpoint on life/health/existence.
There are others just as valid.

Science isn't a singular, narrow field that operates with its own unregulated set of parameters. It's everything in the universe around us and is all encapsulating.

Other viewpoints don't hold the same validity because they're not able to prove their validity through fact.

thomond2006

Deleted User wrote: »

Sterling was at $1.35 3 hours ago. It's rallying well vs the dollar since then.

FTSE closed ~ 6300 last night, opened closer to 5900 but has been floating between 6000 and 6100 since then.

Podge_irl wrote: »

It's still down 7%. It's only rallying well compared to the phenomenal hit it took on the back of this being such a surprise. Some element of rallying was inevitable once the immediate panic subsided but it's still all a bit rubbish.

Somebody is going to make a killing today!

Synode

Deleted User wrote: »

Sterling was at $1.35 3 hours ago. It's rallying well vs the dollar since then.

FTSE closed ~ 6300 last night, opened closer to 5900 but has been floating between 6000 and 6100 since then.

It will be up and down for the day. It started at $1.484 and now stands at $1.377 (and falling) - a drop of approx 7.2%. At the end of today, sterling will have lost a considerable value because of this result.

In comparison, Euro started at $1.138 and has fallen to $1.109 (and steadying) in the same period - a drop of approx 2.54%.

There's no doubt about it. Sterling is suffering far worse than the Euro, and this will continue in the short to medium term

kuang1

Buer wrote: »

Science isn't a singular, narrow field that operates with its own unregulated set of parameters. It's everything in the universe around us and is all encapsulating.

Other viewpoints don't hold the same validity because they're not able to prove their validity through fact.

Oh no they are VERY regulated paramaters, which will often have a staight-jacket and limiting effect on it's own progress.

I know I'm being pedantic, but other viewpoints can't prove their validity through SCIENTIFIC fact.

But despite that I or anyone else can't provide scientific proof or explanation, it is A FACT that I have had no pain in my arm since receiving acupunture. (& trust me I was pretty sceptical to begin with so certainly not a mind-over-matter job.)

awec

awec wrote: »

Today probably marks the beginning of the end for the UK.

Sturgeon just asked for another go at trying to walk themselves out of the UK.

Buer

kuang1 wrote: »

Oh no they are VERY regulated paramaters, which will often have a staight-jacket and limiting effect on it's own progress.

I know I'm being pedantic, but other viewpoints can't prove their validity through SCIENTIFIC fact.

I typed out a response but deleted it. Suffice to say the only thing it had in common with yours was the use of the phrase "straight-jacket".

Clearlier

kuang1 wrote: »

Oh no they are VERY regulated paramaters, which will often have a staight-jacket and limiting effect on it's own progress.

I know I'm being pedantic, but other viewpoints can't prove their validity through SCIENTIFIC fact.

But despite that I or anyone else can't provide scientific proof or explanation, it is A FACT that I have had no pain in my arm since receiving acupunture. (& trust me I was pretty sceptical to begin with so certainly not a mind-over-matter job.)

I'm a little more sceptical than most but medicine has increasingly become evidence based over the past 20-30 years, i.e. there are times when scientific theory pushes us in one direction but reality on the ground in the shape of what actually results from a treatment is what guides medicine. Science gives us ideas as to what might work, RCT's are what tell us whether an idea is effective or not. There's not a massive amount of evidence favouring acupuncture for any specific treatment at the moment. That doesn't mean that it won't work just that we haven't any evidence yet that it does. FWIW I've had acupuncture before and for me I think that it was a complete waste of time and money. My wife has had it also and in her opinion it helped her. Given the myriad factors known and unknown that can affect how someone is you can't just take a single piece of evidence and proclaim it as definitive proof of the efficacy of a treatment because it could be an unknown 'other' that caused the change. That's why you do large scale RCT's.

molloyjh

kuang1 wrote: »

I know I'm being pedantic, but other viewpoints can't prove their validity through SCIENTIFIC fact.

I'm not looking to get involved in the conversation really, but I'm just wondering what other kind of facts are there? I mean I'm sure there's a scientific reason why your arm is better...