i didnt go to Mass!

Choochtown

"Hardline atheists" "Preachy posts" "Smug atheists forcing their views on people"

Where are these posts?

I can't find any. Could some kind Christian please point out just one for me?

Venus In Furs

I'd definitely go to mass if my grandmother asked me to. Because she's 97 years old and the thought of me not believing in god would actually worry her. So it's just to stop causing unnecessary stress to a very old woman, whom I care about deeply.
Nobody else in the family would expect me to go though. Not even my uncle who's a priest.

eviltwin

Iranoutofideas wrote: »

I don't understand why an adult, who considers themselves to be atheist, will still go to Christmas mass because of routine/keeping religious mothers/grandmothers happy.

What sort of relationship do you have with your family where you have to keep your beliefs to yourself? Can you not just tell them you don't want to go and ask them to respect your decision?

It is this kind of weird repression that makes me scratch my head about the country we live in.

Its about choosing your battles. Personally I wouldn't be able to compromise on who I am to make someone else feel better and its caused a few issues in the past but people get over it and accept it. I can understand someone going to mass at Christmas for a quiet life if they feel that is what they need to do.

Venus In Furs

Choochtown wrote: »

"Hardline atheists" "Preachy posts" "Smug atheists forcing their views on people"

Where are these posts?

I can't find any. Could some kind Christian please point out just one for me?

I'm an atheist and can totally see what's being talked about. People sneering at people for simply saying they go to mass, the "I didn't go to mass, aren't I such a maverick" posts, "It's a fairytale" etc.
If it's not as prevalent on this thread, well it's definitely moreso on the thread a few days ago.

Choochtown

RobertKK wrote: »

That just makes having a discussion pointless, that vile organisation raised many million 10 years ago for the Asian tsunami which is the 10th anniversary today. A special church collection for Trocaire got over €16 million.
Dublin collections brought in €4 million.

http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.ie/2008/08/dublin-dioceses-4m-tsunami-fund-helps.html

The Irish Catholic Bishops' agency Trócaire alone received €28.7 million from the Irish public in donations, as well as €1.5 million from the Government, through Irish Aid. It has responded to the emergency through Caritas Internationalis, a network of 162 Catholic humanitarian organisations, and directly through smaller local partners, both church-based and secular.[/QUOTE]



That is what a vile organisation as you called it did.

That's a little bit rude Robert. Why is having a discussion pointless?

I could link you to sites from far-right neo nazi parties who also give generously to charities but what would that prove?

Unquestionably there are kind, loving, generous people who work within your church. But to suggest that this massive profit-making business are somehow kind and generous is baffling. It's a business not an individual. Businesses don't have a moral compass

You have described in your post how this business collected over 40 million euro from Irish people. How about telling me how much of the 40 million actually went on aid? (Building churches, preaching gospels to increase membership of the organisation does not count as aid. Nor does infiltrating and running educational institutions as exclusively Catholic)

weadick

I didn't bother going this year either, for the first time ever.

I'm not particularly religious, it just pisses me off how people who make the biggest deal about Christmas are usually the sort who wouldn't set foot in a church from one year to the next. I used to feel a hypocrite, celebrating Christmas but not going to mass more than once a year.

This year I've given up though trying to pretend there is any significance and meaning in the time of year. It is what it is.

c_man

Iranoutofideas wrote: »

What sort of relationship do you have with your family where you have to keep your beliefs to yourself? Can you not just tell them you don't want to go and ask them to respect your decision?

Sometimes they just don't accept it, and tbh often it's just not worth arguing about. I'm 29 but wouldn't dream of bringing up non-belief on Christmas. All it would do is start a fight (with Mam) and ruin the days that are in it.

Choochtown

Venus In Furs wrote: »

I'm an atheist and can totally see what's being talked about. People sneering at people for simply saying they go to mass, the "I didn't go to mass, aren't I such a maverick" posts, "It's a fairytale" etc.
If it's not as prevalent on this thread, well it's definitely moreso on the thread a few days ago.

I couldn't find any sneering at all on this thread from Atheists. There's a bit of preachy stuff from religious posters but that's to be expected. (Not a criticism of those posts; it's part of Catholic doctrine to believe that it is the correct faith and all other beliefs are wrong so those sort of posts are to be expected)

Paddy Cow

LuckyDude12 wrote: »

I feel really ashamed and utterly disgusted by peoples comment here (those who dont believe in jesus of course)

Christmas is the celebration of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
If Atheists don't believe in God why are they celebrating it?
You don't see Jews celebrating Christmas even though Christmas
might be a commercialized holiday.
You might not have met any Christians who think about Jesus when celebrating it,
but not all True Christians are like this.
I'm Christian & I celebrate the fact that God sent his One & Only Son to die for us.
I don't care about the presents.

That's like saying "if religious people believe in God, why do they celebrate Halloween?". Believe it or not, plenty of Jews and people of other/no faith put up Christmas trees and give each other presents because the atmosphere is great and makes people feel good. It is the season of goodwill after all and I would think that any Christian would be promoting others to share the good will, rather than seeking to exclude them from it.

UCDVet

Paddy Cow wrote: »

That's like saying "if religious people believe in God, why do they celebrate Halloween?". Believe it or not, plenty of Jews and people of other/no faith put up Christmas trees and give each other presents because the atmosphere is great and makes people feel good. It is the season of goodwill after all and I would think that any Christian would be promoting others to share the good will, rather than seeking to exclude them from it.

I think the better question is, 'If you are Christian, why do you celebrate Christmas'? If you look at the history and at modern Christmas the things we associate with Christmas have nothing to do with Christ.

The date aligns with the winter solstice because that's when the pagans did it. The yule log and the tree inside, all have nothing to do with Jesus and were traditions long before Jesus.

The entire deal with Santa makes absolutely zero sense for a Christian. It's mean to be a celebration of the birth of Christ. Oh but UNRELATEDLY, here is a guy in a red suit with flying reindeer, based on mythology having nothing to do with Christ or the Bible.

I'm not religious, so I'm fine with it just being a fun day because of tradition...but I don't see how religious people would be cool with all of it. Isn't the birth of Christ magical enough on it's own - why bring Santa into it?

I get that there was a St. Nicholas and he was known for his generosity. He was Christian and died on Dec. 6th. But he was just a man, even if he was a generous one. To put him on the same level as the birth of Christ is insane (and religious leaders have agreed). Modern Day Christmas isn't just about honouring a generous guy and the birth of Christ. It's all about Santa, that maybe sorta is based on St. Nicholas (but incorporates a whole bunch of mythology from other cultures). Santa is magical, can fly, can see everything, gives presents, I mean, it's completely unrelated to Jesus.

CelticRambler

jimmymorrison2 wrote: »

Packed to the rafters again this year, had to get there half hour early to get a seat.
You can tell a lot of the people there have little or no faith and spirituality though, they are just going through the motions, and it's more of a concert outing or something like that to them. I feel sorry for them that they have become so disconnected to their spiritual side, inner peace and well being. Still, we're always glad to see them, it might rekindle something in one or two of them someday deep down, you never know.

Since I've had to endure what passes for Mass in rural France, I've come to really appreciate the whole "value added" experience that is a bog-standard normal Sunday Mass in Ireland. I'd hardly describe myself as a Holy Joe, but I will choose to go to two Masses on a Sunday "just for fun" because it makes up for the soul-destroying ordeal that I usually opt out of hearabouts.

Now I know there are plenty of opportunities these days for youngsters to get up in front of an audience, but I'm sure the quality of young Irish performers is so waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay ahead of any French children I know because the majority of the Irish learn how to "behave" in a church - like when to shut up, how to stand still and not fiddle with your hair/hood/willy/whatever, or how to all stand up/sit down at the same time, and how to walk in a straight line carrying something that you'd better not drop. I've worked alongside loads of 7-12 year-olds here in France and most of them are completely hopeless at doing any of that without someone telling them exactly what to do. I really don't care if that makes it into a "concert performance" - I happen to think that any musical/concert performance should have a "spiritual" element.

Two Sundays ago, I was at a "First Communion Class" Mass in Dublin when a little thing about 3-foot high read one of the prayers of the faithful clearly and confidently. It really doesn't matter whether or not she believes in God, Santa or the Easter Bunny, her parents, the parish priest and the Catholic Church between them gave her a chance to take a microphone, stand up in front of about five hundred people and say her piece. Who needs the fake emotion of the X-factor when you can get up "on stage" in your own church?

FWIW, back here in France, I decided I would go to Mass on Christmas Day and it was 75 minutes of pure and painful penance. The A&A brigade will be pleased to know there was only one child (and one baby) in the church, so little risk of perpetuating the tradition 'round these parts ...

feargale

Maybe next Christmas there will be a truce here, you know, like the Brits and the Germans kind of succeeded in having at Christmas 1914. Would one day be too much?

Baggy Trousers

eviltwin wrote: »

Its about choosing your battles. Personally I wouldn't be able to compromise on who I am to make someone else feel better and its caused a few issues in the past but people get over it and accept it. I can understand someone going to mass at Christmas for a quiet life if they feel that is what they need to do.

The question I suppose is what else would you do for a "quiet life". I would suggest that many roman catholics in Ireland are really atheists looking for a quiet life. Personally I couldn't stand the hypocrisy so I stopped practicing and people close to me learned to accept that.

eviltwin

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

The question I suppose is what else would you do for a "quiet life". I would suggest that many roman catholics in Ireland are really atheists looking for a quiet life. Personally I couldn't stand the hypocrisy so I stopped practicing and people close to me learned to accept that.

I would be like you. I wouldn't go to mass just to please another person. When I told my family I was atheist and wouldn't be involved with the church anymore it caused a lot of problems. I have had people try and debate it with me or just get angry. I can handle that but when it's Christmas it's easy to see why people don't want to make a big thing of it. But I agree with you. It's when people get married in a church or baptise their kids against their own views just to make a parent happy that I really can't understand.

The Bould Rabbit

Its time to abolish religion in this country.

Ban mass and sell all the churches.

Western society is moving into a post religious age.

Ireland should lead the way.

Baggy Trousers

The Bould Rabbit wrote: »

Its time to abolish religion in this country.

Ban mass and sell all the churches.

Western society is moving into a post religious age.

Ireland should lead the way.

Be careful what you wish for. This is what is coming down the track:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity

danrua01

Haven't been in years and years and it's great!

UCDVet

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Be careful what you wish for. This is what is coming down the track:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity

I dunno - I have to agree with the critics. We keep making chips smaller and faster, but we're not any closer to a technological singularity, IMHO. It'll take some new technology for us to get there.

Baggy Trousers

UCDVet wrote: »

I dunno - I have to agree with the critics. We keep making chips smaller and faster, but we're not any closer to a technological singularity, IMHO. It'll take some new technology for us to get there.

Agreed, let's see where we are in 2040.

CelticRambler

The Bould Rabbit wrote: »

Its time to abolish religion in this country.

Ban mass and sell all the churches.

Western society is moving into a post religious age.

Ireland should lead the way.

Not a chance - France led the way with that strategy in 1901. 113 years later they're still fighting over whether or not all the references to Christianity hard-wired into the law and into the popular psyche have a place in modern society. The two hot topics this month are whether cribs in public places are legal or not, and if we should still keep holy the Sabbath Day. The current verdict: cribs are an insult to the secular state, but the Sabbath is sacred (just like the Pentecost holiday Monday).

And of course the luke-warm mediaeval Christianity (the reforms of the Second Vatican Council haven't really arrived here yet) that wasn't quite swept away by banning religion and stripping the Church of its churches, has since been outpaced by Islam, now the majority actively-practised religion in France.

Be careful what you wish for. :cool:

The Bould Rabbit

The Bould Rabbit wrote: »

Its time to abolish religion in this country.

Ban mass and sell all the churches.

Western society is moving into a post religious age.

Ireland should lead the way.

Religion is very much a part of western society and (thankfully) that's never going to change. Non-believers like to exaggerate a lot on how many people are no longer religious.

eviltwin

The Bould Rabbit wrote: »

Its time to abolish religion in this country.

Ban mass and sell all the churches.

Western society is moving into a post religious age.

Ireland should lead the way.

Why would you want to do that? Religion isn't the problem, more the fact religion has such an influence on the law of the land. I don't care what people want to believe and what they want to practice, that is none of my business. I just don't want my legal rights to be affected by the words of a holy book.

Cantremember

eviltwin wrote: »

Why would you want to do that? Religion isn't the problem, more the fact religion has such an influence on the law of the land. I don't care what people want to believe and what they want to practice, that is none of my business. I just don't want my legal rights to be affected by the words of a holy book.

+1000 etc
A so called holy book. The state must be utterly outside and neutral about all these religions. So many competing gods and visions. I couldn't care less about their beliefs as long as they never again try to enforce such stuff through the law of the land.

9de5q7tsr8u2im

Cantremember wrote: »

+1000 etc
A so called holy book. The state must be utterly outside and neutral about all these religions. So many competing gods and visions. I couldn't care less about their beliefs as long as they never again try to enforce such stuff through the law of the land.

Whats stopping the country from abortion then?
Did christianity have an influence?

CelticRambler

eviltwin wrote: »

I just don't want my legal rights to be affected by the words of a holy book.

:pac: :pac: :pac: I love this argument! What do you think the Law is? Have you ever been in a courtroom and seen the number of Holy Books consulted.

Organised religion is nothing more or less than a set of rules for people to live by, and like it or not, the vast majority of the world's civil rules are still based on the Ten Commandments because - in general - they're pretty sound. The Jews got a bit carried away with adding clauses and sub-clauses, then Jesus came along and basically said "don't get so hung up on the exact words" and a whole bunch of people thought he had a point.

Since then, a whole bunch of people keep trying to persuade those of us who choose to follow that line of thinking that we're better off with the hard-coded system that is the Law ... that'll be the one that sees rapists, murderers and unjustly prosecuted Mahon Enquiry victims walk free on the grounds of technicalities - because someone, somewhere, didn't do exactly what it says in the Holy Book of the day. :rolleyes:

Modern civilisation has a long way to go before it catches up with the simplicity and fairness old systems like early Christianity or Brehon Law.

The Bould Rabbit

LuckyDude12 wrote: »

Whats stopping the country from abortion then?
Did christianity have an influence?

Ah don't - Please don't FFS.

We're only having a bit of a laugh here.

Cantremember

LuckyDude12 wrote: »

Whats stopping the country from abortion then?
Did christianity have an influence?

Certainly not. Everyone knows that. More turkey?

eviltwin

CelticRambler wrote: »

I love this argument! What do you think the Law is? Have you ever been in a courtroom and seen the number of Holy Books consulted.

Organised religion is nothing more or less than a set of rules for people to live by, and like it or not, the vast majority of the world's civil rules are still based on the Ten Commandments because - in general - they're pretty sound. The Jews got a bit carried away with adding clauses and sub-clauses, then Jesus came along and basically said "don't get so hung up on the exact words" and a whole bunch of people thought he had a point.

Since then, a whole bunch of people keep trying to persuade those of us who choose to follow that line of thinking that we're better off with the hard-coded system that is the Law ... that'll be the one that sees rapists, murderers and unjustly prosecuted Mahon Enquiry victims walk free on the grounds of technicalities - because someone, somewhere, didn't do exactly what it says in the Holy Book of the day. :rolleyes:

Modern civilisation has a long way to go before it catches up with the simplicity and fairness old systems like early Christianity or Brehon Law.

The law should be completely removed from religion. Basic humanity ie not committing murder, not stealing, not raping etc has nothing to do with religion. I'm an atheist and I don't need a book to tell me what is right and what is wrong. I am talking about those issues that are a grey area and that are influenced by our religious past ie the laws around alcohol on good friday, same sex marriage, abortion.

CelticRambler

eviltwin wrote: »

The law should be completely removed from religion. Basic humanity ie not committing murder, not stealing, not raping etc has nothing to do with religion. I'm an atheist and I don't need a book to tell me what is right and what is wrong. I am talking about those issues that are a grey area and that are influenced by our religious past ie the laws around alcohol on good friday, same sex marriage, abortion.

But you can't completely separate the Law from religion, because most religions start with a set of core values that are subsequently written down in a book and called "the Law".

It's precisely when you get to the grey areas that the written Law becomes even more of a yoke around society than the non-written beliefs of an organised religion, and the Priests of the High Court get fat on nit-picking through their holy texts.

Baggy Trousers

Gordon Attractive Fries wrote: »

Religion is very much a part of western society and (thankfully) that's never going to change. Non-believers like to exaggerate a lot on how many people are no longer religious.

Religion is a part of every society. There are 200+ known deities or 'gods'. Man always felt a need to 'create' religion to explain the unexplainable and provide a meaning to life (and death). I don't see man's need for religion going away anytime soon.