Denis O'Brien Irelands Sinister Fringe.

Jawgap

steddyeddy wrote: »

I don't have a problem with DOB as much as people who hold him up to be a role model. The term he's a success is thrown around a lot in Ireland regarding people of suspect character Haughey or himself.

We don't want to be teaching kids that our definition of success is someone who allegedly amassed a fortune due to bribery. Saying that whatever you do as long is you get rich doing it is a bit Irish to be honest.

......and to be clear, I wouldn't see him as a role model.

And I'd agree wealth is no measure of success.

Jawgap

Pocoyo wrote: »

....Thats not a conspiracy mate thats just lazy ignorance on your behalf.

We'll enlighten me......

......and I'm not sure where you got the idea I was promulgating a conspiracy theory of any sort - I was simply saying those who were suggesting the man is something more than he actually is, have yet to put up any convincing evidence to prove their point.

Pocoyo

Jawgap wrote: »

We'll enlighten me......

......and I'm not sure where you got the idea I was promulgating a conspiracy theory of any sort - I was simply saying those who were suggesting the man is something more than he actually is, have yet to put up any convincing evidence to prove their point.

Read the OP.

Fukuyama

Karl Stein wrote: »

That was war related development. You think 'private' firms filling government orders to create machinery for destroying other humans and nations is capitalism do you? Dear oh dear.



You know what? I don't think you understand half the nonsense you're coming out with. You think arms contractors hoovering up public money is an example of Capitalism?



The point is that these advances came about due to public money being used to fund technology and development. Often defence spending is little more than a euphemism for government underwritten R&D.



Those aren't 'my version of events'. They're observations. The Soviet System was a different way of doing development and is a different issue.



IBM was saved from collapse in the 1930's when the US government passed social security legislation and needed an enormous number of tabulating machines. They also benefited hugely from the Nazis.



You're utterly disregarding the major role public money, publicly funded universities, government underwritten contracts etc have played in modern technology. I'm not sure whether you're doing it deliberately or if you're simply unaware of the facts

We're actually in agreement. We're just shouting the same thing from opposite sides of the fence.

To a business, public money or private money is all the same. If there's a contract out they'll bid for it.

Nokia Systems Networks (formerly Nokia Siemens Networks - hint hint!) is now the only division of Nokia left after the handset division was sold to Microsoft. Their entire business model is to develop cellular technology and sell it TO governments for infrastructure, instead of governments putting out tenders with specific needs.

Government don't know what they want because they're made up of average people who aren't scientists.

You originally presented your argument as "NASA made the digital camera" when, in fact they didn't. NASA needed better optics and a private firm (Kodak?) provided them with a solution. they didn't ask for someone to make a digital camera - they asked for something better than film. And then funnily enough Kodak dropped the ball and other corporations like Canon and Sony actually made real money off digital cameras in the consumer market. NASA and government money didn't invent squat.

I'm not arguing against (smart) government investment. I'm saying that corporations aren't the root of all evil. They've done more good than bad for humanity and the economy than socialism ever did.

Jawgap

Pocoyo wrote: »

Read the OP.

I did, and have been posting from quite early on in this thread and there's nothing to convince me that my opinion should sit anything but easy with me, that O'Brien is simply a mediocre businessman who has done well out his political contacts.

Of course that doesn't play well with the protesting narrative

Fukuyama

Karl Stein wrote: »

No it's an indisputable fact that Corporations are creations of governments. Drop the conspiracy stuff - nobody is saying that it's a conspiracy.

Exaplin how?

"The corporation" as a formation type a business can take on was created.

But corporations are not made (as in founded) by governments. Apple Inc. was not made by the Irish or US government.

Wurly

Jawgap wrote: »

Again, seriously - difficult to know if you are being deliberately obtuse.....but their names are available here - www.house.gov and here - www.senate.gov

Honestly not being obtuse, mate. Look at my above post to see where i'm going with this. It's absolutely nothing personal.

Well no, but I do some advocacy work for people who have to engage with the HSE (complaints about care, charges etc), Family Courts etc - so I can put you in touch with our organisation's co-ordinator if you need help in that direction or if you feel you can help real disadvantaged people solve their real problems.

I love to hear of people like you, making a difference. Good for you. I really respect that.

Water is being privatised already in certain parts of the world. At the protest on Wednesday, there were people from Detroit telling us of whole families getting their water supply cut off because they couldn't pay their bills. I feel very uncomfortable with the fact that a company can decide if and when we have access to our basic human right. The people from Detroit said they were promised the same promises that our government have promised us. And yet they still got their water supply cut off.

Can we really be that trusting? What if we're wrong? The potential price to pay is just too big.

And if we've nothing to worry about, then why did this happen? http://tinyurl.com/pqvw82a

The minister who set up Irish Water has said there are "forces" within the Department of the Environment who want to privatise the water network.

Fergus O'Dowd said there was good reason to be concerned about the possibility of Irish Water being sold to private hands.

The Fine Gael TD made his comments in the Dáil in the early hours of the morning, as TDs debated the Water Services Bill.

"We have reason to be concerned," he said. "I am convinced there are other forces at work here - not necessarily political forces - that are active and they do have an influence."

He said he wanted a ban on privatisation to be included in previous legislation, but that proposal was deleted.

I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts.

Jawgap

Wurly wrote: »

Honestly not being obtuse, mate. Look at my above post to see where i'm going with this. It's absolutely nothing personal.


I love to hear of people like you, making a difference. Good for you. I really respect that.

Water is being privatised already in certain parts of the world. At the protest on Wednesday, there were people from Detroit telling us of whole families getting their water supply cut off because they couldn't pay their bills. I feel very uncomfortable with the fact that a company can decide if and when we have access to our basic human right. The people from Detroit said they were promised the same promises that our government have promised us. And yet they still got their water supply cut off.

Can we really be that trusting? What if we're wrong? The potential price to pay is just too big.

And if we've nothing to worry about, then why did this happen? http://tinyurl.com/pqvw82a



I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts.

Well, I've lived in four countries including Ireland, and this is the only place where I haven't had to pay for water.

The model is undoubtedly flawed, as is the charging regime. Plus I don't see the problem with privatising the utility (subject to the infrastructure remaining in public ownership) - but if others do, again good luck to them. I find there are better ways to make difference rather than being told what to think by mouthpieces.

Wurly

Jawgap wrote: »

I don't see the problem with privatising the utility

Well, you see, if we privatise it, then it becomes a money making exercise. Just like it did with the HSE when arms of it became privatised.

So that means that if you cant pay the money, you don't get your water.

This has already happened in Detroit. Bills for them skyrocketed, despite promises to cap rates, install meters, promise not to privatise etc etc. Sound familiar?

Honestly, if we can't trust this 100% then we have to reject it! A private firm is interested in making profit, nothing more. And if we can't give them money, they don't give a f*ck about us.

Isn't it interesting that it's now easier to get free wifi than it is to get free water? And yet we need it to live. Nothing could be more serious than that.

waking dreams

Jawgap wrote: »

Well, I've lived in four countries including Ireland, and this is the only place where I haven't had to pay for water.

The model is undoubtedly flawed, as is the charging regime. Plus I don't see the problem with privatising the utility (subject to the infrastructure remaining in public ownership) - but if others do, again good luck to them. I find there are better ways to make difference rather than being told what to think by mouthpieces.

I agree, it is something that we should be paying for. Just not in the 'joke shop' way in which IW is presented to us. Making a difference is what I am all about. My issue is how do I make a difference to a system that we vote for time and time again? It dosent matter if its FF, FG or SF in charge, none of them can or will make a difference. So how to we dismantle a system that allows the likes of Denis to run a muck in? All he is a person who knows how to play the system for benefits. Simple as that.

Fukuyama

waking dreams wrote: »

I agree, it is something that we should be paying for. Just not in the 'joke shop' way in which IW is presented to us. Making a difference is what I am all about. My issue is how do I make a difference to a system that we vote for time and time again? It dosent matter if its FF, FG or SF in charge, none of them can or will make a difference. So how to we dismantle a system that allows the likes of Denis to run a muck in? All he is a person who knows how to play the system for benefits. Simple as that.

I smell a dole scroungers debate!

Tinkersbell

MightyMandarin wrote: »

Meh, he's a smart businessman and I don't begrudge him for what he's done; I'd probably have done the same stuff he's done if I knew it would make me ridiculously rich.

It's easy to be the 'smart businessman' when you have corrupt FG ministers handing you mobile phone licenses etc etc....

coffee_cake

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

All ''hilarious' responses. Joking on the way to the gallows.
In 1983 90% of the US media was controlled by 50 corporations. In 2014, it was 6. If anyone thinks that concentrating the power of the media into limited hands will not in some way interfere down the road with their democracy, their culture, their society, then away with them like lambs...

Denis O Brien knows very well that water is the new oil. In the not too distant future water will be traded as a global commodity. It is a scarce and dwindling resource, mainly because of our utter idiocy in allowing it to b polluted (largely by huge corporations who frack into it, spill oil into it, offrun fertiliser and chemicals into it via their minions who purchase it, and so on.

No single person should have such power concentrated into their hands. It is totalitarian corporatism.

But laugh away

S'what happens when you put govts in charge of everything. They're the same as anyone else, out to make a few bob and favours for their friends
And the bolded part of the above applies as much to them as anyone else

NoMore MrNiceGuy

The discussion on corporations is not related to the topic. It's like assuming a defence of a Russian oligarch is a defence of capitalism and an attack on the russian plutocrat is an attack on capitalism.

Karl Stein

Dean0088 wrote: »

You originally presented your argument as "NASA made the digital camera" when, in fact they didn't. NASA needed better optics and a private firm (Kodak?) provided them with a solution.

I said almost every component in a modern smartphone was developed or rapidly advanced by way of government money.

Dean0088 wrote: »

Exaplin how?

The fact that corporations are a creation of the government is not debatable. In the absence of government intervention, individuals are free to do any sort of business deals they want. They trade goods, buy and sell labor, lend money, form partnerships, and engage in an almost infinite variety of transactions. But they cannot form a corporation — a legal entity that exists independently of its owners. This requires the government.

Dean Baker: Center for Economic and Policy Research

Fukuyama

Wurly wrote: »

Well, you see, if we privatise it, then it becomes a money making exercise. Just like it did with the HSE when arms of it became privatised.

So that means that if you cant pay the money, you don't get your water.

This has already happened in Detroit. Bills for them skyrocketed, despite promises to cap rates, install meters, promise not to privatise etc etc. Sound familiar?

Honestly, if we can't trust this 100% then we have to reject it! A private firm is interested in making profit, nothing more. And if we can't give them money, they don't give a f*ck about us.

Isn't it interesting that it's now easier to get free wifi than it is to get free water? And yet we need it to live. Nothing could be more serious than that.

It's dirt cheap in Detroit.

1,000 L of water costs around €0.40. (I converted it from imperial to metric, and USD to EUR and rounded so not exactly, but there abouts).

SOURCE.

If I don't pay my ESB bill don't you think it's right that I get shut off? (After many, many months if not years of non-payment and not during winter months).

You can't allow people to use a service and not pay. Why don't we organise a big 'non payment' of ESB bills and then just get free electricity or "pay for it through our taxes"?

waking dreams

Dean0088 wrote: »

I smell a dole scroungers debate!

Ha ha, I know, with one thing in common, they both operate within the same governing system :-)

waking dreams

bluewolf wrote: »

S'what happens when you put govts in charge of everything. They're the same as anyone else, out to make a few bob and favours for their friends
And the bolded part of the above applies as much to them as anyone else

Thats if you implement the same s*tty system, Add transparency of all tax to a new system and you have a winner.

Fukuyama

Karl Stein wrote: »

I said almost every component in a modern smartphone was developed or rapidly advanced by way of government money.

You're being obtuse. I'm aware of how corporations are formed and the need for a state in which to reside. Strictly speaking, personal identities don't exist without governments. So what?

You're not making any clear point about society when you nit-pick over the legal phrasing of what a corporation is though. What's your point here?

Do you want to ban corporations?

michael999999

foxtrot101 wrote: »

The Criminal Assets Bureau investigated the tribunal findings. They presented a report outlining the suspected or potential criminality they had identified to the Garda Commissioner late 2011. Apparently the DPP is still deliberating on whether there are grounds to launch a full investigation 3 years on.:rolleyes:

Would that be the same garda commissioner that was best friends with fine Gaels Alan shatter?

Wurly

Dean0088 wrote: »

It's dirt cheap in Detroit.

1,000 L of water costs around €0.40. (I converted it from imperial to metric, and USD to EUR and rounded so not exactly, but there abouts).

SOURCE.

If I don't pay my ESB bill don't you think it's right that I get shut off? (After many, many months if not years of non-payment and not during winter months).

You can't allow people to use a service and not pay.

Dirt cheap in accordance with your salary perhaps. It may not seem a lot to us. But it appears that 40% of Detroit's water supply is being cut off. So it's obviously an issue for some. http://detroitwaterbrigade.org/

Yes of course, via general taxation, water should be paid for by us to ensure adequate treatments etc.

But under no circumstances should a family be left without a basic human right because they can't pay a bill. ESB is not a necessity. We could technically still live without electricity, even though it would be hugely difficult. But we can't live without water.

Autonomous Cowherd

bluewolf wrote: »

S'what happens when you put govts in charge of everything. They're the same as anyone else, out to make a few bob and favours for their friends
And the bolded part of the above applies as much to them as anyone else

Well bluewolf (nice name btw ) a govt has to face the electorate and gets to be replaced every 4 or 5 years. And it is up to us to be educated enough to decide on who we wish to govern us. Although personally I hold with the old adage that
"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato. Unless its a dictatorship. In which case it has unanswerable powers and indefinite tenancy, often associated with nepotism...bit like a CEO really... hehe. kidding (ahem)

Jawgap

Wurly wrote: »

Well, you see, if we privatise it, then it becomes a money making exercise. Just like it did with the HSE when arms of it became privatised.

So that means that if you cant pay the money, you don't get your water.

This has already happened in Detroit. Bills for them skyrocketed, despite promises to cap rates, install meters, promise not to privatise etc etc. Sound familiar?

Honestly, if we can't trust this 100% then we have to reject it! A private firm is interested in making profit, nothing more. And if we can't give them money, they don't give a f*ck about us.

Isn't it interesting that it's now easier to get free wifi than it is to get free water? And yet we need it to live. Nothing could be more serious than that.

Profit is not a dirty word.

If it's privatised then competition can follow, which puts pressure on prices which benefits the consumer. The infrastructure should remain in public ownership, no doubt about that.

Detriot is a basketcase of a city - its governed, organised and managed in a completely different fashion to any Irish city I know.

Also wifi and water can be got for free in restaurants and coffee shops, likewise Dublin City Council provide both (water through drinking fountains).

Fukuyama

Wurly wrote: »

Dirt cheap in accordance with your salary perhaps. It may not seem a lot to us. But it appears that 40% of Detroit's water supply is being cut off. So it's obviously an issue for some. http://detroitwaterbrigade.org/

Yes of course, via general taxation, water should be paid for by us to ensure adequate treatments etc.

But under no circumstances should a family be left without a basic human right because they can't pay a bill. ESB is not a necessity. We could still live without electricity, even though it would be hugely difficult. But we can't live without water.

My salary is tiny - I'm starting a small business. I'd be better off working as a full-time Sales Assistant in Topaz. I still don't see why I should get free water or free anything.

Nobody is going to get their water shut off in Ireland. We're not the US. In the UK you just go into debt which seems fair enough.

Irish Society is at an impasse. The Nanny State theory has failed miserably in the UK despite getting off to a good start. People need to look after themselves so the government can focus on looking after people who really need help (disabled, mentally ill, sick, elderly etc...).

If you get your ESB shut off it's because you've spent years dodging them. It's a well known fact that you can pay €5 off each bill and continue racking up huge debt and they won't call it in. College students do it all the time.

Todays "poor" are not like the poor of the 50s or 60s where you actually went without (as in no food, no new shoes, five kids to a room etc...). Instead, we've fostered a huge swathe of society who like lives similar to those featured in Channel 4's "Skint" documentaries.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yONeKa5F0Pw

Poor, stupid and doing fcuk all to change it. And passing it onto the kids.

Wurly

Jawgap wrote: »

Profit is not a dirty word.

I didn't say it was. Some methods of profit though are dirty.

If it's privatised then competition can follow, which puts pressure on prices which benefits the consumer.

Also, if it's privatised, it becomes more about profit than water. If you cant pay, you don't get the service. No one knows if competition will follow. Can you tell me what the prices will end up being in a few years? Neither can I. Does that not bother you?

The infrastructure should remain in public ownership, no doubt about that.

Good stuff.

Detriot is a basketcase of a city - its governed, organised and managed in a completely different fashion to any Irish city I know.

Yes but can you not see that just because this style of governing isn't here yet, doesn't mean that it wont be soon! Look at how Americanised we've become in this country already over the past 20 years.

Also wifi and water can be got for free in restaurants and coffee shops, likewise Dublin City Council provide both (water through drinking fountains).

And when companies start paying for water, do you think we will still get a glass of water for free in these coffee shops? Why wouldn't they pass on the cost?

Karl Stein

Dean0088 wrote: »

You're being obtuse. I'm aware of how corporations are formed and the need for a state in which to reside. Strictly speaking, personal identities don't exist without governments. So what?

You went on soporific rant about the wonders of capitalism and Corporations how its 'natural'. I just wanted to point out that there's little natural about corporations. Capitalism as we know it requires all those interventions in the 'natural' 'free market' that come about, by means of the government and state, that allow them to function as they are.

You started banging on about how we enjoy all these technological advances because of Capitalism which, as I've shown, was reductive nonsense. This is a discussion site, right? If you don't want your views publicly challenged then start a blog.

Do you want to ban corporations?

No. Corporations can be very useful at getting stuff done. I'd like to see them being better regulated and made more responsible for what they'd consider externalities like pollution, waste, etc.

If governments are responsible for creating corporations then we, as those who elect governments to legislate on our behalf, have every right to regulate them as we see fit.

foxtrot101

michael999999 wrote: »

Would that be the same garda commissioner that was best friends with fine Gaels Alan shatter?

Yep, but in fairness to him he gave it to DPP and she has spent the last 3 years deliberating whether they can launch a full investigation. Nothing has been heard about it since.

Jawgap

Wurly wrote: »

I didn't say it was. Some methods of profit though are dirty.


Also, if it's privatised, it becomes more about profit than water. If you cant pay, you don't get the service. No one knows if competition will follow. Can you tell me what the prices will end up being in a few years? Neither can I. Does that not bother you?


Good stuff.


Yes but can you not see that just because this style of governing isn't here yet, doesn't mean that it wont be soon! Look at how Americanised we've become in this country already over the past 20 years.


And when companies start paying for water, do you think we will still get a glass of water for free in these coffee shops? Why wouldn't they pass on the cost?

Dear God,.......companies already pay for water. There's been commercial water metering for years.

We've hugely different traditions in city governance here and DEHLG will never give up power so there's zero chance our cities will get into the same state as Detroit and other bankrupt US Cities.

Competition, if properly managed, brings about reduced prices. Also if you allow competition, maybe some of the larger international utility firms will take an interest and you get the benefits of scale.

waking dreams

Dean0088 wrote: »

My salary is tiny - I'm starting a small business. I'd be better off working as a full-time Sales Assistant in Topaz. I still don't see why I should get free water or free anything.

But other than free water what else would anyone need to be free?

Nobody is going to get their water shut off in Ireland. We're not the US. In the UK you just go into debt which seems fair enough.

Perhaps nobody in our foreseeable future, who's to say it wont in future generations?

Irish Society is at an impasse. The Nanny State theory has failed miserably in the UK despite getting off to a good start. People need to look after themselves so the government can focus on looking after people who really need help (disabled, mentally ill, sick, elderly etc...).

Fully agree. We have enough on our plate , we should be able to trust the Government to do right by the (disabled, mentally ill, sick, elderly etc...).

If you get your ESB shut off it's because you've spent years dodging them. It's a well known fact that you can pay €5 off each bill and continue racking up huge debt and they won't call it in. College students do it all the time.

Im with Electric Ireland, could I get away with a fiver a bill? If so , I will.

Todays "poor" are not like the poor of the 50s or 60s where you actually went without (as in no food, no new shoes, five kids to a room etc...). Instead, we've fostered a huge swathe of society who like lives similar to those featured in Channel 4's "Skint" documentaries.

Comparing now to past events is not a good idea. As we discussed with regards to technology and how it shapes our current time. I havent watched this however I would imagine that these peoples issues are because of the system they or others voted for.

Wurly

Jawgap wrote: »

Dear God,.......companies already pay for water. There's been commercial water metering for years.

Great, could you simmer down a bit please? I mean, that when everyone gets charged for water and it becomes the norm, then it's going to be commonplace for everywhere else to charge for it as well. I realise that wasn't clear from my previous post.

We've hugely different traditions in city governance here and DEHLG will never give up power so there's zero chance our cities will get into the same state as Detroit and other bankrupt US Cities.

And this brings me back to what I started talking about earlier on when I started posting on this thread. You seem to think that our government have control. They don't. They are merely puppets to corporations. They are the ones with the money and the power.

Competition, if properly managed, brings about reduced prices. Also if you allow competition, maybe some of the larger international utility firms will take an interest and you get the benefits of scale.

If properly managed - exactly. And do you think, considering the absolute f*cking balls up IW is, that there is a sh*tes chance in hell of this happening??

You're a very trusting individual. I sincerely hope your trust isn't taken advantage of!