Denis O'Brien Irelands Sinister Fringe.

Jawgap

Wurly wrote: »

Great, could you simmer down a bit please? I mean, that when everyone gets charged for water and it becomes the norm, then it's going to be commonplace for everywhere else to charge for it as well. I realise that wasn't clear from my previous post.

No need to, I was giggling at that one - nice back-pedaling though:D

Wurly wrote: »

And this brings me back to what I started talking about earlier on when I started posting on this thread. You seem to think that our government have control. They don't. They are merely puppets to corporations. They are the ones with the money and the power.

Up to a point, but the state retains its monopoly on force - "the last resort of kings"

Wurly wrote: »

If properly managed - exactly. And do you think, considering the absolute f*cking balls up IW is, that there is a sh*tes chance in hell of this happening??

You're a very trusting individual. I sincerely hope your trust isn't taken advantage of!

Well, I was thinking more in terms of COMREG not IW when it came to the economic regulation of the sector.

I'm actually quite a skeptical person - but I know which models work and which don't - we just need to vote in a government with the balls to implement the thing properly and recruit decent utility regulators. Unfortunately, TDs like systems to kept loose so when their constituents come complaining they can apply influence in the pursuit of re-election.

Fukuyama

waking dreams wrote: »

But other than free water what else would anyone need to be free?



Perhaps nobody in our foreseeable future, who's to say it wont in future generations?




Fully agree. We have enough on our plate , we should be able to trust the Government to do right by the (disabled, mentally ill, sick, elderly etc...).



Im with Electric Ireland, could I get away with a fiver a bill? If so , I will.



Comparing now to past events is not a good idea. As we discussed with regards to technology and how it shapes our current time. I havent watched this however I would imagine that these peoples issues are because of the system they or others voted for.

Sorry, Electric Ireland = ESB

Yeah, you could. It'd take years for them to cut you off. I'd be surprised if they ever did. If you have kids then it's a definite no. Kiss goodbye to your credit rating though. It's a bad financial plan.

Wurly

Jawgap wrote: »

No need to, I was giggling at that one - nice back-pedaling though:D

No need to what? I'm not back peddling. I just explained it arseways. Glad you saw the funny side.:)

Up to a point, but the state retains its monopoly on force - "the last resort of kings"

But this isn't true.

Why are huge corporations like Google not paying tax? How come, if you or I dodged our tax, we'd be thrown in jail?

So the company gets away with it and it's the ordinary citizen that suffers. Consider how much tax you would owe compared to Google and yet YOU'D be pursued over them!! Is that not weird to you?

If the government work for us and not corporations, what is the point in going after us over the corporation?

As I always say, when a story doesn't make sense, follow the money!

I'm actually quite a skeptical person - but I know which models work and which don't - we just need to vote in a government with the balls to implement the thing properly and recruit decent utility regulators. Unfortunately, TDs like systems to kept loose so when their constituents come complaining they can apply influence in the pursuit of re-election.

Good. Keep being skeptical. Good to see people questioning and willing to learn more.

I'm firmly of the belief that it doesn't matter who we vote in. The whole political system needs to change. Any eejit can see that it's full of corruption. The corruption thrives under the current model we have now. So it's not going to change unless we dismantle the model.

It could be argued that you could get independents in to the current model so that they could transform it from the inside out. But there's no f*cking way FF/FG?Lab/SF etc will solve any of our problems. It's not in big business interests.

So the government just puppeteer a load of sh*te talk about figures and adjustments that actually mean f*ck all. They too are being controlled by corporations and don't have merely the power that we think they do. So that needs to change first and foremost. And then we just need to elect ordinary, intelligent citizens who talk to us about real stuff, don't take bribes and don't aid corruption!

Jawgap

Wurly wrote: »

No need to what? I'm not back peddling. I just explained it arseways. Glad you saw the funny side.:)

Yes of course you did;)

Wurly wrote: »

But this isn't true.

Why are huge corporations like Google not paying tax? How come, if you or I dodged our tax, we'd be thrown in jail?

So the company gets away with it and it's the ordinary citizen that suffers. Consider how much tax you would owe compared to Google and yet YOU'D be pursued over them!! Is that not weird to you?

If the government work for us and not corporations, what is the point in going after us over the corporation?

As I always say, when a story doesn't make sense, follow the money!

That's just life - you have to pay your taxes.

It's simple economics - if you charge companies too much they'll just relocate. Yes they should pay more, but it would be something of a pyrrhic victory to charge a reasonable tax rate if it causes them to leave, then the rate might be fair but the return would be zero.

Wurly wrote: »

Good. Keep being skeptical. Good to see people questioning and willing to learn more.

Eh, thanks, I guess:cool: I'm always willing to learn more if I wasn't I wouldn't be actively involved in original research

Wurly wrote: »

I'm firmly of the belief that it doesn't matter who we vote in. The whole political system needs to change. Any eejit can see that it's full of corruption. The corruption thrives under the current model we have now. So it's not going to change unless we dismantle the model.

It could be argued that you could get independents in to the current model so that they could transform it from the outside. But there's no f*cking way FF/FG?Lab/SF etc will solve any of our problems. It's not in big business interests.

So the government just puppeteer a load of sh*te talk about figures and adjustments that actually mean f*ck all. They too are being controlled by corporations and don't have merely the power that we think they do. So that needs to change first and foremost. And then we just need to elect ordinary, intelligent citizens who talk to us about real stuff, don't take bribes and don't aid corruption!

I'd suggest reading up on republican democracy (not in the SF sense) and how administrative governance can be used.

The system is fine, it's actors that are the problem, including the electorate who don't take the time to understand how the system can work and are just happy to be led by the ones who shout the loudest or who have always been there.

KomradeBishop

Jawgap wrote: »

...
I'd suggest reading up on republican democracy (not in the SF sense) and how administrative governance can be used.

The system is fine, it's actors that are the problem, including the electorate who don't take the time to understand how the system can work and are just happy to be led by the ones who shout the loudest or who have always been there.

Unfortunately, it is no longer a republican democracy; we've ceded a huge part of our sovereignty, control over our currency, to the EU - and the EU has an enormous democratic deficit, and does not function anywhere near like a proper democracy.

Long story short: A country without control over its own currency, loses full autonomy over its public finances when a big enough economic crisis hits, and gets trapped in a situation, which severely erodes the quality of that countries democracy - as the government can no longer act in the public interest or fulfil its mandate, because government is forced to cede power to whoever controls the purse strings.

We can get many of those powers back - even while staying in the Euro - but public debate on general economic issues, isn't anywhere near conducive to discussing this.

Jawgap

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Unfortunately, it is no longer a republican democracy; we've ceded a huge part of our sovereignty, control over our currency, to the EU - and the EU has an enormous democratic deficit, and does not function anywhere near like a proper democracy.

Long story short: A country without control over its own currency, loses full autonomy over its public finances when a big enough economic crisis hits, and gets trapped in a situation, which severely erodes the quality of that countries democracy - as the government can no longer act in the public interest or fulfil its mandate, because government is forced to cede power to whoever controls the purse strings.

We can get many of those powers back - even while staying in the Euro - but public debate on general economic issues, isn't anywhere near conducive to discussing this.

I wouldn't disagree with any of that, but I do think the country is better off in than out of the EU.

KomradeBishop

Jawgap wrote: »

I wouldn't disagree with any of that, but I do think the country is better off in than out of the EU.

Definitely - it would have been better had we not switched to the Euro, but overall EU membership has benefited us a lot, and a breakup of the EU would damage us severely.
It might still come to that though - but there's still a lot we could do locally in the meantime.

Jawgap

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Definitely - it would have been better had we not switched to the Euro, but overall EU membership has benefited us a lot, and a breakup of the EU would damage us severely.
It might still come to that though - but there's still a lot we could do locally in the meantime.

The only problem with the Euro was they didn't go far enough - either do it or don't do it (a common currency) - without banking union and some mechanism to effect fiscal transfers it was always going to be vulnerable. We found out the hard way just how vulnerable!!

I don't think the EU will break up, but we'll have fairly serious problems if the Brits decide to leave the party!!

Pocoyo

During the boom the EU was seen as a protector of Ireland,A giver....Now its quite obvious the EU serve the Elite and France/Germanys interests,The cost of staying in the EU means the destruction of our public system and quality of life,We simply cant afford to pay the debt unless they share it or ''allow'' us to write it off,I say **** the EU,I hope the UK leave,Then the smoke and mirrors will come to an end in ireland and we will see where we really stand,Im willing to work on building this country back up and so are half of the population.

Keyboard warriors that wouldnt leave the house to save their granny can move to france. ''se la vie''

Menas

Pocoyo wrote: »

''se la vie''

Huh?

tayto lover

Trigger Happy wrote: »

Huh?

Petit pois.

Menas

tayto lover wrote: »

Petit pois.

C'est vrai.

Tail Docker

Merde.

jimgoose

Pocoyo wrote: »

...Keyboard warriors that wouldnt leave the house to save their granny can move to france. ''se la vie''

This Keyboard Warrior is thinking of leaving the house, saving his granny and moving to Texas, rather than spending the rest of my life lining the pockets of illiterate braying asses. Chucky awr law.

Nodin

jimgoose wrote: »

This Keyboard Warrior is thinking of leaving the house, saving his granny and moving to Texas, .......

Bye.

Highflyer13

jimgoose wrote: »

This Keyboard Warrior is thinking of leaving the house, saving his granny and moving to Texas, rather than spending the rest of my life lining the pockets of illiterate braying asses. Chucky awr law.

Me too in 2016 for Canada a fairer and more independent society. I cant believe I was an eternal optimist two years ago. The EU are up our holes about all sorts of stuff and when Sarkozy gets back as president of France I fear for our Corporate Tax rate. Getting out while your ahead.

jimgoose

Nodin wrote: »

Bye.

Ah, an illiterate braying ass speaks!

Nodin

jimgoose wrote: »

Ah, an illiterate braying ass speaks!

I'm illiterate now? Most remarkable. It's not often I'm sneered at by somebody whose views seem more suitable to the 18th century than the present.

jimgoose

Nodin wrote: »

I'm illiterate now? Most remarkable. It's not often I'm sneered at by somebody whose views seem more suitable to the 18th century than the present.

You are indeed privileged. Enjoy it.

Nodin

jimgoose wrote: »

You are indeed privileged. Enjoy it.

O no. Off you go to Texas and gift your wit to it's population.

jimgoose

Nodin wrote: »

O no. Off you go to Texas and gift your wit to it's population.

On second thoughts, I think I'll stay right here. It seems I'm needed.

coffee_cake

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

Well bluewolf (nice name btw ) a govt has to face the electorate and gets to be replaced every 4 or 5 years. And it is up to us to be educated enough to decide on who we wish to govern us. Although personally I hold with the old adage that
"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato. Unless its a dictatorship. In which case it has unanswerable powers and indefinite tenancy, often associated with nepotism...bit like a CEO really... hehe. kidding (ahem)

4 or 5 years is a long time to do damage and be forgotten come election promise time - a company selling things will still have to answer to its customers and shareholders all the time.
The main point was really that people are happy to claim groups of people in power are evil and out to serve themselves ... but never seem to remember that the govt is also a group of people in power and have no special qualities that make them immune to the rest of it

nibble

jimgoose wrote: »

Chucky awr law.

Now that's a butchering of the Irish language!

Red21

This guy makes around 500 million a year, anyone have a rough idea how much of that is through Irish business?

Does he actually not pay any tax? or is there more to it than that.

RobertKK

Some people are more concerned with other people and what they do, own or say, rather than doing anything themselves and making things happen for themselves.

I don't care either way about Denis O'Brien. Some people see wealth and think there is something wrong with it, because maybe that person puts it upon themselves to feel an injustice because they are poorer than that person.
I believe you have to make things happen for yourself and not concern oneself with people one has no influence over, in this case Denis O'Brien.
A lot of water protesters are simply wasting time and mental energy getting worked up over who got the meter contract and maybe the methods involved.
It is not going to make one iota of difference. Same when it comes to his media interests, which you don't have to avail of if you don't want to in the case of the media.

Highflyer13

RobertKK wrote: »

Some people are more concerned with other people and what they do, own or say, rather than doing anything themselves and making things happen for themselves.

I don't care either way about Denis O'Brien. Some people see wealth and think there is something wrong with it, because maybe that person puts it upon themselves to feel an injustice because they are poorer than that person.
I believe you have to make things happen for yourself and not concern oneself with people one has no influence over, in this case Denis O'Brien.
A lot of water protesters are simply wasting time and mental energy getting worked up over who got the meter contract and maybe the methods involved.
It is not going to make one iota of difference. Same when it comes to his media interests, which you don't have to avail of if you don't want to in the case of the media.

There is so much wrong with IW its ridiculous. Sure we will just lie down and say nothing and continue being good sheep. These protests are not a waste of time as evidenced by some serious backtracking.

I agree with your point on making things happen for yourself as I strive to do however some of the facts about Denis O'Brien and metering cannot be ignored. Its suspicious when the Government are refusing to answer simple questions that the Irish people are demanding answers to and are shutting down debate. Denis hasn't the cleanest record when it comes to obtaining contracts.

If we want a better Ireland these questions must be answered clearly.

Beaner1

A perfect example of jobless person that likes to rant incoherently about Denis O'Brien.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAAtV6p8IyI

Pocoyo

RobertKK wrote: »

Some people are more concerned with other people and what they do, own or say, rather than doing anything themselves and making things happen for themselves.

I don't care either way about Denis O'Brien. Some people see wealth and think there is something wrong with it, because maybe that person puts it upon themselves to feel an injustice because they are poorer than that person.
I believe you have to make things happen for yourself and not concern oneself with people one has no influence over, in this case Denis O'Brien.
A lot of water protesters are simply wasting time and mental energy getting worked up over who got the meter contract and maybe the methods involved.
It is not going to make one iota of difference. Same when it comes to his media interests, which you don't have to avail of if you don't want to in the case of the media.

Silly the government is actively promoting policies that are widening the equality gap to the benefit of Denis O'Brien etc,They dont care they have cushy jobs and even if they lose power the will have pensions and even more cushy jobs provided by the elite,Its hard for people to work hard and make it for themselves when their leaders are doing everything in their power to stop that happening.

Jawgap

Pocoyo wrote: »

Silly the government is actively promoting policies that are widening the equality gap to the benefit of Denis O'Brien etc,They dont care they have cushy jobs and even if they lose power the will have pensions and even more cushy jobs provided by the elite,Its hard for people to work hard and make it for themselves when their leaders are doing everything in their power to stop that happening.

It's funny, earlier this week the OECD published a report noting that income inequality in Ireland was narrower in Ireland compared to the rest of the bloc - unsurprisingly it got practically zero coverage here because it plays against the narrative......

RobertKK

Pocoyo wrote: »

Silly the government is actively promoting policies that are widening the equality gap to the benefit of Denis O'Brien etc,They dont care they have cushy jobs and even if they lose power the will have pensions and even more cushy jobs provided by the elite,Its hard for people to work hard and make it for themselves when their leaders are doing everything in their power to stop that happening.

Have you phoned, emailed or arranged a meeting with any member of FG or Labour to put this point across?