Travellers jailed for attacking Gardai

Scannal

Cormac... wrote: »

Who does? Do you? If so, what is it?

Can you help with the list? It's really struggling

It needs an unbiased, informed opinion on the merits of Travellers

My wifes a traveller, she's great. That's my informed opinion.

Generic Dreadhead

Cormac... wrote: »

Let's make a list, as an informed group of intelligent adults of good experiences you've had with Travellers.

Who will be 1st?

1) Scannels wife is both a Traveller and Great
2)

Now we're getting places

end of the road

kstand wrote: »

"major experience" - i.e. watched 2 episodes of My Big fat gypsy Wedding.

no . unless your talking about the ones making more of an issue of something a traveler does over everybody else?

FTA69

I coach Traveller kids on Sundays and box with them on a daily basis in the gym. They're sound lads.

FTA69

Cormac... wrote: »

Is it still the same 4 people, providing a blinkered defense for the Travelling community by writing one liners, where they attempt to pin people to the wall, even though they themselves have no 1st hand experience of Travellers or evidence to back up what they are saying?

How do you know what experiences people have with Travellers? I find your attitude hilarious to be honest, this notion that anyone who doesn't engage in blanket condemnation of the whole group is some sort of latte-drinking pinko who doesn't know what they're talking about. Funnily enough, on the flip side, many people I hear ranting and raving about them never spoke to a Traveller in their life.

I'm from a council estate in Cork and knew a load of them growing up, similarly through boxing I've trained with, sparred with and fought Travellers and have gotten to know many of them. Likewise I've been a doorman and have had some pretty bad experiences with them as well.

In other words, I've had both very good and very negative experiences with Travellers which has led me to the conclusion that there is good and bad people within that community. Hence why the "they're all thieving bastards" mantra doesn't ring too true for me personally.

end of the road

they'res good and bad everywhere, but much easier to bash certain sections of society to satisfy ones self importence and make one feel they are above and better then that section of society when they realy aren't

bodice ripper

Cormac... wrote: »

Let's make a list, as an informed group of intelligent adults of good experiences you've had with Travellers.

Who will be 1st?

1)

In my experience, they make excellent tattoo customers. Do decent work and treat them like human beings, they will bring you more work. You just have to make sure the price you initially ask for has haggle room.

Generic Dreadhead

FTA69 wrote: »

How do you know what experiences people have with Travellers?

I don't know, that's why I was asking

I find your attitude hilarious to be honest, this notion that anyone who doesn't engage in blanket condemnation of the whole group is some sort of latte-drinking pinko who doesn't know what they're talking about. Funnily enough, on the flip side, many people I hear ranting and raving about them never spoke to a Traveller in their life.

Kind of missed my point completely there. This is what happens when you read 1 post of context and do not realise that I'm not hear for the generic anti-traveller rabble rousing, there's enough of that going on without me adding my voice to the mob.

You will see the people who have provided the most balanced points, usually with 1st hand evidence, and in many cases, like yourself, including both the good and the bad points have received the most of the "thanks" (whatever mass you put on them i dunno)

I'm from a council estate in Cork and knew a load of them growing up, similarly through boxing I've trained with, sparred with and fought Travellers and have gotten to know many of them. Likewise I've been a doorman and have had some pretty bad experiences with them as well.

In other words, I've had both very good and very negative experiences with Travellers which has led me to the conclusion that there is good and bad people within that community. Hence why the "they're all thieving bastards" mantra doesn't ring too true for me personally.

There is just pages and pages of people on this thread bashing travellers and then are a select few people providing circumventive comments which can only be seen as a "case for the defense".

I wanted to see if at any stage in this thread people could focus on the positives, and it seems like some people take issue with that.

Lots of people (not yourself included) are throwing around statements such as "i've had 1st hand good experiences with travellers" but refuse to elaborate on that and instead just lambast anyone who is saying they have had bad experiences.

I'm glad you have had a good experience with them in the past. But reading the same handful of people instigating ire amongst others by dismissing the issues they have had, some of which are truly upsetting, is ridiculous.

Almost all of them are being suspected of trolling at this rate.
But this thread never really stood a chance IMHO

Generic Dreadhead

And as if this proves my very point as I was typing the last post

end of the road wrote: »

they'res good and bad everywhere, but much easier to bash certain sections of society to satisfy ones self importence and make one feel they are above and better then that section of society when they realy aren't

More rubbish.

There's good and bad types of Acid
There's good and bad types of Dogs
There's good and bad types of Internet Trolls
There's good and bad types of Broadband providers
There's good and bad types of Ethical Tea Growers

Does that mean that if someone goes "F**k Vodafone" you appear out of nowhere defending Vodafone?

Radly

Cormac... wrote: »

Does that mean that if someone goes "F**k Vodafone" you appear out of nowhere defending Vodafone?

I think you're missing the point. Vodafone can look after themselves. They'll appear outa nowhere to defend Meteor though

smash

Cormac... wrote: »

Does that mean that if someone goes "F**k Vodafone" you appear out of nowhere defending Vodafone?

Apparently if there's any form of good to counteract any form of bad, no matter what the percentage, then you're not allowed to discuss the bad...

The_Minister

michael999999 wrote: »

Ah but think how much money hes barrister has made from free legal aid representing this fine young lad!

Not much at all most likely.

Mountainsandh

FTA69 wrote: »

How do you know what experiences people have with Travellers? I find your attitude hilarious to be honest, this notion that anyone who doesn't engage in blanket condemnation of the whole group is some sort of latte-drinking pinko who doesn't know what they're talking about. Funnily enough, on the flip side, many people I hear ranting and raving about them never spoke to a Traveller in their life.

I'm from a council estate in Cork and knew a load of them growing up, similarly through boxing I've trained with, sparred with and fought Travellers and have gotten to know many of them. Likewise I've been a doorman and have had some pretty bad experiences with them as well.

In other words, I've had both very good and very negative experiences with Travellers which has led me to the conclusion that there is good and bad people within that community. Hence why the "they're all thieving bastards" mantra doesn't ring too true for me personally.

It has to be said though that a boxing training situation to a young traveller is probably akin to releasing a bridezilla in the best wedding fair ever with an unlimited budget.

I have no doubt that the same traveller who might have made my life a misery an hour before may be charming to you in a boxing training session the same evening.

FTA69

"I know dozens of Travellers from boxing with them and training their kids"

"They're actually bastards, they just do it when they're not with you"

What a load of sh*te.

shruikan2553

FTA69 wrote: »

"I know dozens of Travellers from boxing with them and training their kids"

"They're actually bastards, they just do it when they're not with you"

What a load of sh*te.

Anecdotes dont matter, supposedly we need cold hard facts so we can ignore them or we're racist.

Mountainsandh

FTA69 wrote: »

"I know dozens of Travellers from boxing with them and training their kids"

"They're actually bastards, they just do it when they're not with you"

What a load of sh*te.

Talk about extrapolating... I would be grateful if you could please refrain from interpreting my comments in this manner.

My point is simply that your example is that of one activity that is usually greatly enjoyed by young travellers, that they relate to, and are motivated for. You are around them in the best possible situation.

My work involves dealing with travellers in situations that are a lot less enjoyable for them, and their responses to these situations are a lot less pleasant, and sometimes downright counterproductive not only for them but for others.

This is kind of a key point in the discussion this far actually, that while most of us in society take the good and the bad, that is, we go to work, we pay taxes, we pay our bills, we generally abide by the rules that society requires, as well as enjoying the good sides... travellers tend to take the good, and tend to avoid the bad.

If you look at my previous posts you will see that in fact, I too have had some positive experiences of travellers, but to me it feels like there are a lot more negative experiences to be had. I have stated plainly that I would welcome statistics that would prove my feelings wrong, but these statistics are not available, and it seems people who take a stand for travellers are reluctant to admit that they are needed, so we can all move on and try to deal with the problems.
If the problems apply to a minority, so much the better... I personally do not see it that way.

To deny that there are problems at all is to bury one's head in the sand; to refuse to accept that the general perception is that the problems are widespread is to dig your head in a bit deeper; to refuse to acknowledge that the situation needs to be looked at objectively, and that statistics would help, is giving up on any kind of resolution.

blueman02

FTA69

would you agree that the majority of travellers are antisocial criminals?

i have plenty of contact with travellers and for every 100 negative interaction there is maybe one positive one

FTA69

blueman02 wrote: »

FTA69

would you agree that the majority of travellers are antisocial criminals?

No I wouldn't. No more than I'd agree with the contention that most Bangladeshis beat their wives or most Somalian young men are criminally inclined.

OldNotWIse

My own experiences have been largely negative. I am happy to be proved wrong, and await such time...

FTA69

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Talk about extrapolating... I would be grateful if you could please refrain from interpreting my comments in this manner.

My point is simply that your example is that of one activity that is usually greatly enjoyed by young travellers, that they relate to, and are motivated for. You are around them in the best possible situation.

First of all, boxing isn't the only medium through which I know Travellers. Secondly, the ones I did train with were mostly local fellas I knew outside of the gym and shock horror, most of them were decent people who were generally well respected in our area and never caused anyone hassle. Similarly, I've met a few through the sport who were unsavoury characters but I've met plenty of non-Travellers in the sport who were dodgy enough bastards as well. Hence my point, you can't characterise every individual due to their ethnicity or background.

My work involves dealing with travellers in situations that are a lot less enjoyable for them, and their responses to these situations are a lot less pleasant, and sometimes downright counterproductive not only for them but for others.

I have no doubt that's the case.

If you look at my previous posts you will see that in fact, I too have had some positive experiences of travellers, but to me it feels like there are a lot more negative experiences to be had. I have stated plainly that I would welcome statistics that would prove my feelings wrong, but these statistics are not available

In fairness, that sort of thing is impossible to have statistics for. You can hardly put vague positive or negative experience into a graph or pie chart like.

and it seems people who take a stand for travellers are reluctant to admit that they are needed, so we can all move on and try to deal with the problems.
If the problems apply to a minority, so much the better... I personally do not see it that way.

Again, I've no doubt that that community faces a variety of problems; many of which are solely internal. I also don't agree with the notion that they are desperate for integration but face insurmountable barriers; in my experience that distance is maintained by themselves more so than anyone else. It's a mutual thing. However, when threads like this come up there's usually just a blanket stream of condemnation, statements that they're all criminally-inclined retrobates and anybody who speaks against that narrative gets dismissed as a bleeding-heart liberal ponce.

Mountainsandh

FTA I think a pretty well rounded statistical analysis of the traveller community would help though, but that would have to include not only health, education etc... which are mostly known, but also crime rates, which are currently unavailable as far as I understand.
For example how many young travellers are brought to the attention of the court, for what offences, how many actually get convictions, for what and to what extent/how many convictions, and similar numbers for adults, with the added information on how many serve prison time/community service, how many re-offend if that's the case ...

Similar to these, the general crime statistics for the country.

I like others on here would be weary of travellers getting ethnic status because of the possible "excuses" that may be made, but I also think it might be a good thing, as it would make drawing such statistics and acting on solutions somewhat easier. Possibly.

Whether it's perception or not, there is an obvious crisis between settled and traveller communities, and it can only be a good thing if the record can be set straight. Only fair to well adjusted, and functioning traveller families in our midst too.

FTA69

FTA I think a pretty well rounded statistical analysis of the traveller community would help though, but that would have to include not only health, education etc... which are mostly known, but also crime rates, which are currently unavailable as far as I understand.

As far as I'm aware those sort of statistics exist; I don't think anyone is unaware of the fact that the percentage of Traveller males who have been incarcerated is much higher than that of the wider population. That having been said, these sort of statistics are also higher for people living in council estates and other ethnicities in other countries. For instance the incarceration rates of black males in the USA is considerably higher than that of the wider population, however I wouldn't deem it acceptable to suggest that black men are inherently criminal. Unfortunately that's precisely the attitude toward Travellers that some have taken in this thread.

Personally I'd much rather look at the causation of such statistics rather than just go on the figures alone.

shruikan2553

FTA69 wrote: »

As far as I'm aware those sort of statistics exist; I don't think anyone is unaware of the fact that the percentage of Traveller males who have been incarcerated is much higher than that of the wider population. That having been said, these sort of statistics are also higher for people living in council estates and other ethnicities in other countries. For instance the incarceration rates of black males in the USA is considerably higher than that of the wider population, however I wouldn't deem it acceptable to suggest that black men are inherently criminal. Unfortunately that's precisely the attitude toward Travellers that some have taken in this thread.

Personally I'd much rather look at the causation of such statistics rather than just go on the figures alone.

Black people are a huge group. It wouldnt be fair to say that all black men are criminals but it would be fair to say that there is a higher proportion of crime with black males in Detroit.(picked a city at random). It would also be fine to say there is a higher crime in Limerick than there is in Kerry (again, random counties) and to question it vs saying that everyone in Limerick is committing crimes.

People are unable to tell the difference between:
1. All of X are Y
2. There is a higher proportion of Y within the group X. Why is this?

FTA69

Black people are a huge group. It wouldnt be fair to say that all black men are criminals but it would be fair to say that there is a higher proportion of crime with black males in Detroit.(picked a city at random). It would also be fine to say there is a higher crime in Limerick than there is in Kerry (again, random counties) and to question it vs saying that everyone in Limerick is committing crimes.

Absolutely. And are black people more likely to be involved in crime due to poverty and a raft of other conditions or are they just genetically predisposed to it?

suicide_circus

FTA69 wrote: »

Absolutely. And are black people more likely to be involved in crime due to poverty and a raft of other conditions or are they just genetically predisposed to it?

Again, true. But imo the burden of responsibility for a community changing its situation lies with those in the community.

FTA69

Again, true. But imo the burden of responsibility for a community changing its situation lies with those in the community.

There's often a combination of both. I think it would be churlish to ignore centuries of grinding racism and societal exclusion and simply say "get your sh*t" together. Often there are obstacles in the way that are out of that community's control.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/torrent-of-abuse-for-love-hate-actor-after-traveller-defence-1.1986637

On another note, here is a Traveller actor who has been subject to a huge amount of pretty serious abuse for voicing an opinion.

Mountainsandh

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Black people are a huge group. It wouldnt be fair to say that all black men are criminals but it would be fair to say that there is a higher proportion of crime with black males in Detroit.(picked a city at random). It would also be fine to say there is a higher crime in Limerick than there is in Kerry (again, random counties) and to question it vs saying that everyone in Limerick is committing crimes.

People are unable to tell the difference between:
1. All of X are Y
2. There is a higher proportion of Y within the group X. Why is this?

I don't understand your point, isn't that exactly the same thing I have been asking ?

If there is a definite, higher statistical proportion of crime within the travelling community than the rest of Irish society, then it simply needs to be tackled head on, but also it means that people are not in fact prejudiced, simply informed.

Remember prejudice implies that your opinion is erroneous, someone is prejudiced because they "assume" something when the reality may be different.

If in fact the levels of crime within the travelling community are higher than in the settled community, then people are not prejudiced, there is no prejudice, simply a dislike of a fact.

That we should act to remedy that goes without saying. A shake up of the justice system so that sentences are acted on rather than an individual piling up 92 convictions for example is an obvious first step.

FTA no, I don't think these statistics are available in Ireland, I haven't been able to find any myself, but would be glad if you have links.
There is a comprehensive profile of victims, none of criminals that I can find in official statistics outlets. (Only sex and age group)

suicide_circus

FTA69 wrote: »

There's often a combination of both. I think it would be churlish to ignore centuries of grinding racism and societal exclusion and simply say "get your sh*t" together. Often there are obstacles in the way that are out of that community's control.



On another note, here is a Traveller actor who has been subject to a huge amount of pretty serious abuse for voicing an opinion.

Agreed but I would say the settled community (the state) has made a fair bit of effort in terms of discrimination legislation and all social supports and entitlements imaginable. Time for the community to meet the state in the middle.

Mountainsandh

And I would like to add that in my line of work at least, there is a lot of help to tackle all the negatives.
A large amount of moneys and effort go into helping travellers thrive in society, but cultural habits or simply choices prevent change in a lot of cases as far as I can see.

It is very discouraging to offer so much, and have such a low take up rate.
It's even more discouraging when you try to help, help, help, and end up with an abusive response.

That brings us back to OP, and comments on this thread that are rightfully (in my opinion) pi$$ed off that the justice system failed to deal with an individual up until his 92nd conviction.

We have to move away from the notion that these are prejudiced comments, there is anger out there because action is not taken, and yes it is making things worse.

Generic Dreadhead

This kind of thing should never happen to anyone

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057320674