Travellers jailed for attacking Gardai

Ghost Buster

catallus wrote: »

Like the ones about how about 10% die before they're 2 years of age?

The endemic unemployment through discrimination?

The escalated suicide rate?

The abominable poverty rate?

The third-world life-expectancy?

Its their culture though.
How is this anyone elses fault but theirs?


Not with ya on the poverty though. Better cars and houses than i will ever hope to have,

Grayson

VinLieger wrote: »

The point is they choose to do all these thing's, but you cannot suddenly choose to be a different ethnicity just to suit the scam you are trying to run to get free money and avoid prosecution through legal loopholes.

I have met traveller's but I would wager my first experience meeting them was likely similar to many other's and enough to put me off trying another one

there's an article in the guardian (yeah i know) yesterday. It was a guy from India who grew up black. That's because anyone with darker skin was considered "black". there were really only two ethnicities back then. One of the comments was from a Chinese guy who said he and two Japanese coworkers were considered black as far as HR was concerned.

Then it changed to black and asian. then it changed to black, asian, indian. Now there's chinese, japanese, indian, etc...,And even those are broken up further still.

Just because we didn't consider them a separate ethnicity doesn't mean they aren't. (note: I'm not saying they are either. I'm not an expert. As I said before, I imagine there's a list of criteria they need to meet compiled by people who know about this stuff.)

Grayson

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Its their culture though.
How is this anyone elses fault but theirs?


Not with ya on the poverty though. Better cars and houses than i will ever hope to have,

Some have houses, many live in halting sites. It's not like they summer there and winter elsewhere.

here's the thing I don't get about people who dislike all travellers. As someone pointed out they have 10% child mortality for children under two. People act like travellers want that. Most traveller parents are just like most parents. they want their children to grow up health and happy and they do they best that they know how to. They don't want their babies dying. It's not like they're spartans and leaving the kids out in the cold to survive.

VinLieger

Grayson wrote: »

Some have houses, many live in halting sites. It's not like they summer there and winter elsewhere.

here's the thing I don't get about people who dislike all travellers. As someone pointed out they have 10% child mortality for children under two. People act like travellers want that. Most traveller parents are just like most parents. they want their children to grow up health and happy and they do they best that they know how to. They don't want their babies dying. It's not like they're spartans and leaving the kids out in the cold to survive.

I would agree nobody want's to see babies die or even adults at such a young age as travelers do but that is not something that can be really blamed on the rest of society imo, traveler's consistently reject formal education which is a huge part of why their mortality rates for children and adults are so high.

Grayson

VinLieger wrote: »

I would agree nobody want's to see babies die or even adults at such a young age as travelers do but that is not something that can be really blamed on the rest of society imo, traveler's consistently reject formal education which is a huge part of why their mortality rates for children and adults are so high.

It's part them, part us. Do you know a single person who'd want a traveller living next to them? It's like having a black family move in next door in 1930's Alabama. It wouldn't matter what type of person you actually are, just being a traveller is enough to warrant hatred and distrust.

Now if everyone in the country treated you like that since birth, you can see how eventually you'd start distrusting people. You'd also think there was no place for you in that society.


Now, I'm not absolving travellers for the crimes that are committed. Most are still adult human being with fully functioning brains. I'm just trying to put it in context.

Edited to add. The worst crime i ever heard of being committed by a traveller was in the town a grew up in. Two traveller men raped a young doctor. They were caught dragging her unconscious body to the canal where they were going to drown her and dump the body. They got light sentences because a local priest said they came from a bad family. That's no excuse for that kind of behaviour and lets face it, most travellers, even the "bad" ones, would not consider doing it.

My point above is that I understand how hard it is for an average traveller to integrate. I understand how the communities become socially isolated. And how that can even lead to petty crimes.

VinLieger

Grayson wrote: »

It's part them, part us. Do you know a single person who'd want a traveller living next to them? It's like having a black family move in next door in 1930's Alabama. It wouldn't matter what type of person you actually are, just being a traveller is enough to warrant hatred and distrust.

Now if everyone in the country treated you like that since birth, you can see how eventually you'd start distrusting people. You'd also think there was no place for you in that society.


Now, I'm not absolving travellers for the crimes that are committed. Most are still adult human being with fully functioning brains. I'm just trying to put it in context.

True it is a vicious cycle but the image that travellers present does them no good, they get a fair amout of state support yet still do not contribute really in any way to society as a community. They shun education consistently which exacerbates the problem. I would be of the view that since we give them a fair amount of support like welfare etc that our hand has been extended they simply are refusing to take it and continuing the cycle, of course that is simply the view from my side of the fence but it would be the one held by the majority of the so called settled community.

DeadHand

Grayson wrote: »

Some have houses, many live in halting sites. It's not like they summer there and winter elsewhere.

Agreed. In my experience, there is a stringent class system within the Travelling community, mostly financially constructed. Despite their often archaic and superstitious though deeply seated religious devotion it seems to me that, in most cases, money is their god. They are, generally, an overwhelmingly materialistic people. A wealthy Traveller will, mostly, not mix with a poor Traveller and will, generally, hold him in the same contempt he, sadly, holds most other people.

here's the thing I don't get about people who dislike all travellers. As someone pointed out they have 10% child mortality for children under two. People act like travellers want that. Most traveller parents are just like most parents. they want their children to grow up health and happy and they do they best that they know how to. They don't want their babies dying. It's not like they're spartans and leaving the kids out in the cold to survive.

I don't think any intelligent poster on here has acted like they want that. Travellers in general love their children insanely and have an unbreakable loyalty to their own relatives, their blood, their own. It's one of their more obvious and admirable qualities.

Yet, ask yourself, whose fault is this scandalously high infant mortality rate? What more could the state do to improve these figures beyond the ridiculous amount of cash it already pumps into the Travelling community?

Grayson

VinLieger wrote: »

True it is a vicious cycle but the image that travellers present does them no good, they get a fair amout of state support yet still do not contribute really in any way to society as a community. They shun education consistently which exacerbates the problem. I would be of the view that since we give them a fair amount of support like welfare etc that our hand has been extended they simply are refusing to take it and continuing the cycle, of course that is simply the view from my side of the fence but it would be the one held by the majority of the so called settled community.

I think we need more outreach programs. And see if we can out more emphasis on education. Maybe even a special grant to get traveller children into school/college. I know that people will say "why should we spend more money on them". But education has been shown to be the single greatest leveller when it comes to social and income inequality. It opens doors and provides the kids with a belief that they have a choice.

Like you said, it's a viscous cycle, but it's going to keep on happening if we don't do something.

Annasopra

VinLieger wrote: »

I would agree nobody want's to see babies die or even adults at such a young age as travelers do but that is not something that can be really blamed on the rest of society imo, traveler's consistently reject formal education which is a huge part of why their mortality rates for children and adults are so high.

Do they actually reject it? Or are they made to feel rejected and unwelcome within it?

shruikan2553

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Do they actually reject it? Or are they made to feel rejected and unwelcome within it?

Anti-social behaviour does have a tendency to be unwelcome and rejected.

Annasopra

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Anti-social behaviour does have a tendency to be unwelcome and rejected.

Ah right - so you are saying every single traveller who accesses formal education behaves anti socially?

Nekarsulm

Grayson wrote: »

No they didn't. I went to a private school after doing an entrance exam.

And even then, they didn't have the same advantage. they didn't have my parents. And their parents didn't have my grandparents. Our families are the greatest advantage we have growing up.
I also wasn't shunned by the greater community (despite being a blowin ) .

the obstacles faced by a traveller child and his/hers families are tremendous. I'm not saying that we should excuse bad behaviour when it happens. I'm saying that we should at least understand where it comes from.

OK, you were fortunate enough to have caring parents who could afford to send you to a "good" school. But did you go to a private school after an entrance exam at age four? Because this is the problem's genesis. If children do not regularly attend National school, and get encouragement at home to study and behave, how can they hope to take an entrance exam for any school? You cannot claim that free 2nd level education schools are so substandard that every student is doomed !
Perhaps we do need more programmes to encourage traveller parents to ensure their children attend school and succeed, but then, perhaps if we as a society enforced the laws already in place, such programmes may not be needed.

eviltwin

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Do they actually reject it? Or are they made to feel rejected and unwelcome within it?

In what way do you think a child from a Traveller family would be made to feel unwelcome and rejected?

eviltwin

Grayson wrote: »

I think we need more outreach programs. And see if we can out more emphasis on education. Maybe even a special grant to get traveller children into school/college. I know that people will say "why should we spend more money on them". But education has been shown to be the single greatest leveller when it comes to social and income inequality. It opens doors and provides the kids with a belief that they have a choice.

Like you said, it's a viscous cycle, but it's going to keep on happening if we don't do something.

This could be a great help for those families who want to see their children go to college but part of the problem with the Traveller community is the attitude towards education in particular for women. Most traveller girls leave school as soon as they are old enough, they are expected to care for younger siblings until they get married themselves. A good marriage is more attractive than a child with a degree. Gotta change the attitudes first.

Annasopra

eviltwin wrote: »

In what way do you think a child from a Traveller family would be made to feel unwelcome and rejected?

Bullying, Harassment, Racism, Isolation

eviltwin

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Bullying, Harassment, Racism, Isolation

That is something many children from settled families experience. Our education system has channels for dealing with bullying, its not perfect but you can be sure if I kept my kids home because they were being bullied I'd be challenged on it.

Dionysius2

Jerichoholic wrote: »

Ah yeah, he probably didn't do any harm....92 times before.

Wouldn't advise him to smuggle in any garlic though. Heard it's risky.

Annasopra

eviltwin wrote: »

That is something many children from settled families experience.

Thats just whataboutery. Do children from settled families face those because they are from settled families. Do they face it to the same extent?

shruikan2553

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Ah right - so you are saying every single traveller who accesses formal education behaves anti socially?

Yes, that is exactly what I said. You can only think all travellers are paragons of this country or they all need to be put down. It isnt possible to look at statistics and see that if you took 10 travellers and 10 non travellers you are more likely to find lower education, higher unemployment and higher anti-social behaviour from one of the groups but I suppose we are better off just pretending it doesnt exist. Lets just throw all math out the window in case somebody doesnt like it.

jackofalltrades

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Do they actually reject it? Or are they made to feel rejected and unwelcome within it?

In my year in secondary school there were 2/3 traveller children.
It wasn't common knowledge and since their behaviour was the same as everyone else they fitted right in.
Also with the massively increased diversity in schools these days being different is not the issue it used to be.

I think that if travellers make an honest attempt to integrate with non-travellers, then people will try and give them the benefit of the doubt.

eviltwin

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Thats just whataboutery. Do children from settled families face those because they are from settled families. Do they face it to the same extent?

Kids from immigrant families are subjected to racism. Gay kids are subjected to homophobic bullying. Those kids don't get a pass because of it. Travellers who feel their kids are being bullied should take it up with the school or Dept of Ed but keeping your child home is not acceptable. Do you really believe every traveller child who misses school is home because they are being bullied.

Annasopra

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Yes, that is exactly what I said. You can only think all travellers are paragons of this country or they all need to be put down.

I think its a massive problem in this country that huge numbers do have the opinion they all need to be put down.

To Elland Back

Grayson wrote: »

Some have houses, many live in halting sites. It's not like they summer there and winter elsewhere.

here's the thing I don't get about people who dislike all travellers. As someone pointed out they have 10% child mortality for children under two. People act like travellers want that. Most traveller parents are just like most parents. they want their children to grow up health and happy and they do they best that they know how to. They don't want their babies dying. It's not like they're spartans and leaving the kids out in the cold to survive.

If I was a traveller who was concerned about my child's health, I would abandon the the halting site for a house, where I could keep my kids warm, be able to dry and air their clothes properly, where I would have the facilities to cook them proper meals, where I could keep them clean warm and dry to fight the illnesses all children get.

If I, as a settled person, exposed my kids to some of the conditions travellers kids have to endure, they would be taken in to care.

Let's call it as it is. Travellers want to maintain a supposedly nomadic life because a permanent identifiable address is not in their interest

DeadHand

jackofalltrades wrote: »

I think that if travellers make an honest attempt to integrate with non-travellers, then people will try and give them the benefit of the doubt.

Here's the crux.

In my own experience, the effort simply isn't coming from their side. "Our" side as represented by the state could not do much more.

Annasopra

eviltwin wrote: »

Kids from immigrant families are subjected to racism. Gay kids are subjected to homophobic bullying. Those kids don't get a pass because of it. Travellers who feel their kids are being bullied should take it up with the school or Dept of Ed but keeping your child home is not acceptable. Do you really believe every traveller child who misses school is home because they are being bullied.

I outlined a range of reasons as to why they might feel formal education rejects them. Not just one.

Grayson

eviltwin wrote: »

Kids from immigrant families are subjected to racism. Gay kids are subjected to homophobic bullying. Those kids don't get a pass because of it. Travellers who feel their kids are being bullied should take it up with the school or Dept of Ed but keeping your child home is not acceptable. Do you really believe every traveller child who misses school is home because they are being bullied.

they don't face anything like the discrimination that a traveller family faces. If a kids gay is discriminated against does he find that his entire extended family is discriminated because of it? I understand the discrimination faced by the gay community but it's not on the same level. Not in Ireland anyway.

Same goes for immigrant children. A kid who's parents are Nigerian or polish might face some discrimination, but it's not like Roma who had a march against them in Waterford.

Think of it like this. Think of you and all your friends. How many gay friends do you have? How many foreign friends do you have? How many traveller friends do you, or any of your friends have?

Annasopra

DeadHand wrote: »

Here's the crux.

In my own experience, the effort simply isn't coming from their side. "Our" side as represented by the state could not do much more.

Isnt it?

How do you know this? Why is there "sides"?

eviltwin

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I outlined a range of reasons as to why they might feel formal education rejects them. Not just one.

And not one of those reasons justifies keeping a child out of education. Education is one of the best things you can give your child, anyone who would prevent their child getting a good education without a very compelling reason is a bad parent.

DeadHand

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I think its a massive problem in this country that huge numbers do have the opinion they all need to be put down.

A tiny, tiny minority consisting of the utterly despicable truly believe this.

A slightly larger minority may express foolish sentiments like this out of their own inarticulation and frustration.

A frustration born of the appalling behaviour of a large section of the Travelling community.

Grayson

To Elland Back wrote: »

If I was a traveller who was concerned about my child's health, I would abandon the the halting site for a house, where I could keep my kids warm, be able to dry and air their clothes properly, where I would have the facilities to cook them proper meals, where I could keep them clean warm and dry to fight the illnesses all children get.

If I, as a settled person, exposed my kids to some of the conditions travellers kids have to endure, they would be taken in to care.

Let's call it as it is. Travellers want to maintain a supposedly nomadic life because a permanent identifiable address is not in their interest

So you're saying that travellers don't actually care about their own children?